Detumescence Therapy- dedicated volunteers wanted

ive heard the same thing many times. yet to see any evidence though. the problem is, heavy brushing or massaging for long periods, has the potential to increase hairloss.

noone wants to do that unless u can prove it will come back stronger. i just dont see why there isnt some proof like pictures. sure u can say ppl dont like to post photos, or ppl dont owe us anything. thats fine. but dont make the claims if u cant back them up.

rofl wrote:ive heard the same thing many times.  yet to see any evidence though.  the problem is, heavy brushing or massaging for long periods, has the potential to increase hairloss.

noone wants to do that unless u can prove it will come back stronger.  i just dont see why there isnt some proof like pictures.  sure u can say ppl dont like to post photos, or ppl dont owe us anything.  thats fine.  but dont make the claims if u cant back them up.

So you're saying that shouldn't make claims if we can't please you ROFL? Lol right.

Massaging for long periods of time has the potential to increase hair loss? Wow that is quite a theory you got going on there. Completely goes against the anecdotal evidence we have on this forum (and on several different other forums) as well as the positive studies posted on here about the benefits of massage/scalp massage.

I can see how maybe brushing can cause some hair loss... but I doubt massaging can.

bananasinpajamas wrote:well i actually refute your main assertion, "He has pictures of regrowth bro"

Again, from his collection of close up pics on this site, you cannot determine what is regrowth and what is existing. If you have pictures of him from a previous forum being slick bald then that's another story. I'd love for this to be the miracle cure. Id massage my head for an hour a day if it was.

Complexx wrote:

boogv510 wrote:

Complexx wrote:Why would anybody lie about regrowth.... Nobody is selling anything here. We also have members that have had problems with growing hair while on other methods before that are claiming a stop in hair loss/regrowth. Why don't you just start the exercises (if you haven't done so already) and document your own progress if you don't like it?

You need to relax bro, its not about lying, people want regrowth so badly they start imagining things, ive been there before, so I know. You remember the boar brush thread, people were claiming results  and what not, still nothing to show. Im not saying dt doesn't work but you need to relax and stop saying this is 100% guaranteed cure.

Imagining? He has pictures of regrowth bro. How long are we gonna sit here and eat shit by arguing about lack of results? We should all either 1) Take people's word for it (especially since a good amount of them have reported no regrowth from other methods or #2 Document our own results.

DT has worked for nearly every single person I've seen on this forum & most of us gave experienced some "universal symptoms" (safe to call them universal I believe.) I've never seen anything like this besides what was happening in the dermarolling thread before they shut it down.

PS: whodat really took the words right out of my mouth! I salute the guys on here that obtained regrowth TWO YEARS after sticking with manuals... This is not a short process you guys. Whodat's post should be pinned on this damn thread.

After this maybe you can decide to start the actual process and rely on your own pics and evidence. You will find that

1) This thing actually works

2) You wasted time looking for "evidence" when you could have tried this free technique out and achieved some regrowth/halt in hair loss by now and

3) That your own evidence is the very best evidence. You have nothing to loose besides time well spent. it's free, & from what we're seeing here, it's effective,as well.

These are pics of the same spot.. Please compare the first pic, which to my understanding is actually a pic DREXX took AFTER he regrew some hair on his slick bald temples, with the fourth (4) pic all the way at the bottom. If you don't[ see the difference here then you might as well move on to some technique that you feel more comfortable with.

Slowmoe and several other people (such as Duke for example) have irrefutable proof of hair regrowth and bettered hair quality, too. So it's your choice whether or not you want to spend years of your life on this forum going back and fourth about whether this is a cure or not when instead you can hopping on here for more important things like learning about effective diets and how to get over certain health conditions etc. etc. etc.

but isnt the area surrounding the mole, the temple points, (not sure wat to call them) or the tops of the side burns, in the non mpb area?

mine seem to be constantly growing bigger. i always have new growth there, while the area above keeps receding.lol

by the way complex i did congratulate drexx on these pics. i do appreciate him making the effort.

it seems a cruel irony that while certain areas lose hair, other areas seem to get more hair. like we all have a number of active hairs that ,must be maintained at any point in time. for every hair u lose on ur head, u gain one below the belt. lmao.

massager wrote:It won't let me upload pictures

Hey massager - I see you only joined up a few days ago, there may be a one week restriction, or something to that effect, before you can upload images?

I think pics are key here - without the pictures, we're going to go around in circles, just like on the Papilla Power / Margo threads. To me, Drex's pics are convincing, to others, not so much, but the more guys we have contributing, the more solid this will be.

Everyone's different, some people need only a very little anecdotal 'evidence' before they are willing to try out a method, other people need solid 'scientific proof', no one personality type is better than the other.

I think that we're going to see more 'evidence' here as the year unfolds. If guys are willing to have a pic of their melon on the internet, they should go ahead and take pics, and then upload them when they think they can see improvement - we need as many contributors as we can get.

IMHO, the guys who take pics should try to maintain similar lighting, distance, angle, hair length etc. as best they can with their pics (imagine you're looking at someone else's pics - what would you need to see in order to be convinced that a method is working?); and the rest of the guys who are doing the looking on need to not be so judgemental and realise that the people who are uploading pics are doing them, and everyone else here, a massive favour by making themselves vulnerable and open to scrutiny :-)

whodathunkit wrote:

boog wrote:You remember the boar brush thread, people were claiming results  and what not, still nothing to show. Im not saying dt doesn't work but you need to relax and stop saying this is 100% guaranteed cure.

 
One big problem with manual methods is that they require a great deal of discipline to continue for the length of time necessary to potentially reap big results.  Most of us don't have that discipline.  I don't.  Reportedly ot takes a year to make big gains with manuals, and it seems that most of us drop off after 4-6 months.  So I'm not entirely sure that it's the methods that are to blame for lack of verifiable progress.  

Myself, I was making decent progress with brushing and Maliniak a couple of years ago, and even posted some pictures, but got tired/ragged out/busy, and just stopped the regimen for a while.  My hair is still in better shape than it was before I started manuals, but I've lost some ground from when I last took pics.

I did boar brush for almost 2 years, so you can say I did enuff and should have some results ri? My hair actually got worst. one thing I do notice when I started doing dt is that all my miniaturization hair fell off, same goes for the area that was thinning, all gone, I hope its a good thing.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade here, but a previous poster just mentioned that kneading should be carried out instead of massage. Wouldn't firm kneading cause cellular and capillary compression in the same way pillows cause compression? So, on that note, wouldn't kneading cause reduced bloodflow if capillaries become "squashed"?

Maybe the kneading is hormetic since it is a shorter exposure time.

boogv510 wrote:I did boar brush for almost 2 years, so you can say I did enuff and should have some results ri? My hair actually got worst. one thing I do notice when I started doing dt is that all my miniaturization hair fell off, same goes for the area that was thinning, all gone, I hope its a good thing.

boog, how long have you been doing dt?

Also, when you were brushing, did you do any other manual (like non-dt massge, violet ray, etc.)?

One more question:  were you one of the ones who was brushing until the scalp was bleeding?

FWIW, I don't know that anyone around here ever claimed that boar brushing was enough in and of itself to regrow hair.   The claims for manuals have all centered around some really vigorous stimulation like massage or toweling, or even focused wounding like with dermarollers. Brushing is considered a good adjunct to other manual methods, and can greatly improve the condition of the hair, but unless your hairloss problem is very mild, it probably can't correct hairloss.

I personally doubt if it's possible for someone with an AGA problem to achieve results with brushing alone.  

At the very least it's almost impossible to brush that vigorously without wounding yourself, and I don't think brushing until wounding is a good idea.  The wounds beget by brushing would have to be more like skin tears that would scar, instead of punctures like with dermarollers/dermastamps that would heal without scarring (thus generating the "right kind" of inflammatory and then healing response in the process).  All the experts in dermarolling caution against dragging the roller/needles and tearing the skin, precisely for that reason.

Xenon wrote:I don't want to rain on anyone's parade here, but a previous poster just mentioned that kneading should be carried out instead of massage. Wouldn't firm kneading cause cellular and capillary compression in the same way pillows cause compression? So, on that note, wouldn't kneading cause reduced bloodflow if capillaries become "squashed"?

Compression is only bad when it's for an extended period of time. Very short episodic compression (like with massage) actually creates a kind of pumping action that brings more blood (and lymph) into the area, increasing circulation and also increasing detox, because when the new circulation moves away from the area it carries cellular waste with it.

this takes a ton of effort to do twice a day, my shoulders, triceps and upper back get sore doing this. Is there any reason why the study would lie about 100% success rate? it kind of makes sense with the dome thing to flatten it down and make it more round.

boogv510 wrote:

whodathunkit wrote:

boog wrote:You remember the boar brush thread, people were claiming results  and what not, still nothing to show. Im not saying dt doesn't work but you need to relax and stop saying this is 100% guaranteed cure.

 
One big problem with manual methods is that they require a great deal of discipline to continue for the length of time necessary to potentially reap big results.  Most of us don't have that discipline.  I don't.  Reportedly ot takes a year to make big gains with manuals, and it seems that most of us drop off after 4-6 months.  So I'm not entirely sure that it's the methods that are to blame for lack of verifiable progress.  

Myself, I was making decent progress with brushing and Maliniak a couple of years ago, and even posted some pictures, but got tired/ragged out/busy, and just stopped the regimen for a while.  My hair is still in better shape than it was before I started manuals, but I've lost some ground from when I last took pics.

I did boar brush for almost 2 years, so you can say I did enuff and should have some results ri? My hair actually got worst.  one thing I do notice when I started doing dt is that all my miniaturization hair fell off, same goes for the area that was thinning, all gone, I hope its a good thing.

Boog, when you brushed, how long did you do it for, and did you do it daily? Also, how vigorously?

Thanks.

Complexx, if it does not work it is not time well spent. It is quite the opposite.

3) That your own evidence is the very best evidence. You have nothing to loose besides time well spent. it's free, & from what we're seeing here, it's effective,as well.

A lot of logic in this thread is a bit off.

There is a lot of causation correlation fallacy everywhere here with regards to spongy flesh around areas of hair loss, oily scalp, tight scalp, etc. In short, it is like seeing smoke come from a fire and assuming that smoke caused the fire.  At this point there is no direct research to link these as the actual cause of hair loss.

On top of that there are huge assumptions about calcification. Do we even have a study or a biopsy showing massive calcification in the follicle or in the scalp? I know we have people on the internet writing about it, but in all the years of hair loss research and dissection of cadavers has anyone ever observed this? I have not read a study stating this.

In my opinion DT, boar brushing, towel rubbing can help (as we finally have seen something with Drexx's pictures that Complexx posted, thank you btw), but so far there is nothing that proves it has to do with reshaping the head, increasing blood flow, removing calcium, etc. Based on studies regarding skin stretching, it is what I initially though--you are causing micro damage to the scalp and causing a release of growth factors.

I will also be continuing my derma rolling.

sizzlinghairs wrote:

boogv510 wrote:

whodathunkit wrote:

boog wrote:You remember the boar brush thread, people were claiming results  and what not, still nothing to show. Im not saying dt doesn't work but you need to relax and stop saying this is 100% guaranteed cure.

 
One big problem with manual methods is that they require a great deal of discipline to continue for the length of time necessary to potentially reap big results.  Most of us don't have that discipline.  I don't.  Reportedly ot takes a year to make big gains with manuals, and it seems that most of us drop off after 4-6 months.  So I'm not entirely sure that it's the methods that are to blame for lack of verifiable progress.  

Myself, I was making decent progress with brushing and Maliniak a couple of years ago, and even posted some pictures, but got tired/ragged out/busy, and just stopped the regimen for a while.  My hair is still in better shape than it was before I started manuals, but I've lost some ground from when I last took pics.

I did boar brush for almost 2 years, so you can say I did enuff and should have some results ri? My hair actually got worst.  one thing I do notice when I started doing dt is that all my miniaturization hair fell off, same goes for the area that was thinning, all gone, I hope its a good thing.

Boog, when you brushed, how long did you do it for, and did you do it daily? Also, how vigorously?

Thanks.

about 5 mins or so, I do it until my scalp is red. As for as dt, Im on my 5 months mark

Did you do it everyday religiously? And I think that guy ferox recommended to do it like 10 minutes a day?

Did you focus on just the problem areas or all over the scalp?

Only reason I ask is because I'm currently brushing as well.

Thanks

sizzlinghairs wrote:Did you do it everyday religiously? And I think that guy ferox recommended to do it like 10 minutes a day?

Did you focus on just the problem areas or all over the scalp?

Only reason I ask is because I'm currently brushing as well.

Thanks

I did it twice a day, every single day. I doubt ferox ever had any hair loss to begin with, dude has a perfect hairline.

Hmm maybe twice a day was too much. Just a thought. I usually see the recommendation to be once a day

sizzlinghairs wrote:Hmm maybe twice a day was too much. Just a thought. I usually see the recommendation to be once a day

I did that for the first year I think, didn't see any results so i end up doing it twice a day.

bananasinpajamas wrote:...

On top of that there are huge assumptions about calcification. Do we even have a study or a biopsy showing massive calcification in the follicle or in the scalp? I know we have people on the internet writing about it, but in all the years of hair loss research and dissection of cadavers has anyone ever observed this? I have not read a study stating this.

In my opinion DT, boar brushing, towel rubbing can help (as we finally have seen something with Drexx's pictures that Complexx posted, thank you btw), but so far there is nothing that proves it has to do with reshaping the head, increasing blood flow, removing calcium, etc. Based on studies regarding skin stretching, it is what I initially though--you are causing micro damage to the scalp and causing a release of growth factors...

Did you miss this thread:
https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t8752-danny-roddy-post-on-calcification-blood-flow-and-baldness-and-how-vitamin-k-is-key
https://web.archive.org/web/20130707185729/http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2013/3/28/the-ivory-dome-theory-of-pattern-hair-loss

Also, in my post I did say that I have changed my scalp shape to be more round, maybe I was not clear enough. In the Hong Kong study they used some tool to record the decrease in skin thickness.

nicks wrote:this takes a ton of effort to do twice a day, my shoulders, triceps and upper back get sore doing this. Is there any reason why the study would lie about 100% success rate? it kind of makes sense with the dome thing to flatten it down and make it more round.

I think it is a hormetic effect. As I said in my earlier I have not done anyway near 2x20 mins a day and I have seen great improvement. It would depend on how advanced your hairloss is and how fast you want to reverse it.

element46 wrote:
Did you miss this thread:
https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t8752-danny-roddy-post-on-calcification-blood-flow-and-baldness-and-how-vitamin-k-is-key
https://web.archive.org/web/20130707185729/http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2013/3/28/the-ivory-dome-theory-of-pattern-hair-loss

Also, in my post I did say that I have changed my scalp shape to be more round, maybe I was not clear enough. In the Hong Kong study they used some tool to record the decrease in skin thickness.

regarding your scalp changing observation. and the hong kong study. assuming you had noticed regrowth and a change of scalp shape, there is no data to link the change of scalp shape as a factor in hair growth. the most that can be said is that these two phenomena might be related. it is like what i said, causation correlation fallacy. smoke and fire.

with regards to danny roddy. from what I recall, there was never a study that took biopsies of a human scalps and recorded calcification of the tissue or follicle. cotsarelis, who looked at the scalp with a microscope, discovered elevated PGD2, but he said nothing about calcium.

the original study that roddy refers to is by dr ballenger and he talks about calcification of the cranial sutures in the skull. causing an ivory dome. nothing to do with "spongy" tissue on the skull and unless you are going to take a belt sander to your skull, massaging the skin on your head isnt going to change any calcification of the skull

On top of that, ballengers theory talks about the skull pinching off blood major arteries to the scalp. This would mean transplanted hairs from the side and back of the head would not survive in these blood starved regions. This is obviously not the case.

element46 wrote:

nicks wrote:this takes a ton of effort to do twice a day, my shoulders, triceps and upper back get sore doing this. Is there any reason why the study would lie about 100% success rate? it kind of makes sense with the dome thing to flatten it down and make it more round.

I think it is a hormetic effect. As I said in my earlier I have not done anyway near 2x20 mins a day and I have seen great improvement. It would depend on how advanced your hairloss is and how fast you want to reverse it.

I really want to reverse my hairloss really bad so I decided to go big or go home. I start with the right side of my receded hairline, then move to the left until I reach the other side of my hairline. That covers the front, then I start again from the right side and go down the center, then I do it 1 more time down the back then I just press down as hard as I can on my finger tips and try to cover most of the spots on my scalp. This takes me like 30 minutes to do. The hardest part of this whole thing is that the center of my scalp is so tight I have to press really hard with both of my hands, is it like this for everyone?

I really hope this study isnt a bunch of BS because this would fuckin suck to put this much energy in twice a day for nothing.

whodathunkit wrote:

Xenon wrote:I don't want to rain on anyone's parade here, but a previous poster just mentioned that kneading should be carried out instead of massage. Wouldn't firm kneading cause cellular and capillary compression in the same way pillows cause compression? So, on that note, wouldn't kneading cause reduced bloodflow if capillaries become "squashed"?

Compression is only bad when it's for an extended period of time.  Very short episodic compression (like with massage) actually creates a kind of pumping action that brings more blood (and lymph) into the area, increasing circulation and also increasing detox, because when the new circulation moves away from the area it carries cellular waste with it.

Yes, I just thought I'd bring this issue up because I noticed thinning patches manifesting from pressing my hands on my head after repeated sit ups sessions, but, as you neatly explained, kneading helps to remove residual crap and improve blood flow.

boogv510 wrote:

sizzlinghairs wrote:Hmm maybe twice a day was too much. Just a thought. I usually see the recommendation to be once a day

I did that for the first year I think, didn't see any results so i end up doing it twice a day.

Did you do for 10 minutes once a day? And did you do all over the scalp or just the problem areas?

Also , do you have a link to the brush you used?