Detumescence Therapy- dedicated volunteers wanted

boog wrote:You remember the boar brush thread, people were claiming results and what not, still nothing to show. Im not saying dt doesn't work but you need to relax and stop saying this is 100% guaranteed cure.

One big problem with manual methods is that they require a great deal of discipline to continue for the length of time necessary to potentially reap big results. Most of us don't have that discipline. I don't. Reportedly ot takes a year to make big gains with manuals, and it seems that most of us drop off after 4-6 months. So I'm not entirely sure that it's the methods that are to blame for lack of verifiable progress.

Myself, I was making decent progress with brushing and Maliniak a couple of years ago, and even posted some pictures, but got tired/ragged out/busy, and just stopped the regimen for a while. My hair is still in better shape than it was before I started manuals, but I've lost some ground from when I last took pics.

New hair

It won't let me upload pictures

the skin on the top of my scalp is extremely hard to pinch together, I have to use 2 hands and almost dig my fingernails into my scalp to get even a little pinch. Is this the reason for my hairloss? its so tight there's no bloodflow?

Hairy Potter wrote:@ Complexx, can you see the little vellus hairs I was talking about in Drex's pics? You can see them pretty clearly in pics 6 and 7 from the top of the pics that bananasinpajamas just posted.

Hairy, there are other pics of DREXX on the HLT forum and there was close to nothing on his head before. He also stated that where he was slick bald BROWN spots occurred and sprouted vellus hairs.

Of course, he can still chime in and clarify for us

bananasinpajamas wrote:im not saying he's lying. not at all. i never implied or suggested that he was lying either.

and those are all his pics, in order. i went through this whole thread.

I'll upload some of his other pics from a different forum.

boogv510 wrote:

Complexx wrote:Why would anybody lie about regrowth.... Nobody is selling anything here. We also have members that have had problems with growing hair while on other methods before that are claiming a stop in hair loss/regrowth. Why don't you just start the exercises (if you haven't done so already) and document your own progress if you don't like it?

You need to relax bro, its not about lying, people want regrowth so badly they start imagining things, ive been there before, so I know. You remember the boar brush thread, people were claiming results  and what not, still nothing to show. Im not saying dt doesn't work but you need to relax and stop saying this is 100% guaranteed cure.

Imagining? He has pictures of regrowth bro. How long are we gonna sit here and eat shit by arguing about lack of results? We should all either 1) Take people's word for it (especially since a good amount of them have reported no regrowth from other methods or #2 Document our own results.

DT has worked for nearly every single person I've seen on this forum & most of us gave experienced some "universal symptoms" (safe to call them universal I believe.) I've never seen anything like this besides what was happening in the dermarolling thread before they shut it down.

PS: whodat really took the words right out of my mouth! I salute the guys on here that obtained regrowth TWO YEARS after sticking with manuals... This is not a short process you guys. Whodat's post should be pinned on this damn thread.

well i actually refute your main assertion, "He has pictures of regrowth bro"

Again, from his collection of close up pics on this site, you cannot determine what is regrowth and what is existing. If you have pictures of him from a previous forum being slick bald then that's another story. I'd love for this to be the miracle cure. Id massage my head for an hour a day if it was.

Complexx wrote:

boogv510 wrote:

Complexx wrote:Why would anybody lie about regrowth.... Nobody is selling anything here. We also have members that have had problems with growing hair while on other methods before that are claiming a stop in hair loss/regrowth. Why don't you just start the exercises (if you haven't done so already) and document your own progress if you don't like it?

You need to relax bro, its not about lying, people want regrowth so badly they start imagining things, ive been there before, so I know. You remember the boar brush thread, people were claiming results  and what not, still nothing to show. Im not saying dt doesn't work but you need to relax and stop saying this is 100% guaranteed cure.

Imagining? He has pictures of regrowth bro. How long are we gonna sit here and eat shit by arguing about lack of results? We should all either 1) Take people's word for it (especially since a good amount of them have reported no regrowth from other methods or #2 Document our own results.

DT has worked for nearly every single person I've seen on this forum & most of us gave experienced some "universal symptoms" (safe to call them universal I believe.) I've never seen anything like this besides what was happening in the dermarolling thread before they shut it down.

PS: whodat really took the words right out of my mouth! I salute the guys on here that obtained regrowth TWO YEARS after sticking with manuals... This is not a short process you guys. Whodat's post should be pinned on this damn thread.

Hi All,

I've been meaning to post for a while, but just getting around to it now. I think I have some interesting points for everyone to consider.

I have been doing the detumescence therapy for a few months however I am not very consistent with it because its been working so well. I probably do 10 mins every second or third day on my problem spots, which is nothing like the 2x20 mins a day in study. I think because I'm only starting to thin on my crown and front that I can see more quickly what works than others who have been slick bald in areas for years.

Along with drex1999's recent long post I want to address the method people are using to describe how to do the "massage". First of all, its not a massage, this will confuse things, its a knead or a press. Your fingers should not be sliding over your skin/hair. The way I've been doing the kneading, is to just press down in one spot very hard, to the threshold of pain felt in my fingers and scalp. The study talks about skin in the areas of hairloss being thick. When I first started doing the pressing, over about 30secs of one press, my fingers would sink into my skin. I would make a crater, this was not possible where my skin/hair was not falling like sides, back, etc. The crater would feel like 0.5cm deep, which is substantial. To see what I mean, you can get a pen or pencil and hold it perpendicular to your shin and press it in real hard for at least 30 secs, yes it hurts lot. I used to do this as a kid along the whole length of my skin to create a washboard type ripple, you can basically create a pencil shaped depression in your shin "bone". However, this is more likely just fluid of some sort in the skin being slowly pushed to the surrounding tissue in those 30 secs. On the scalp I can make the same depression however I notice alot of "grease", oil when doing it there, which supports what they're saying in the study. I thought when I started that my skin in these areas was really thin because it felt tough and solid, I thought I was feeling my skull bone and so I avoiding touching it too hard thinking I would damage the skin further. However after pressing for 30 secs and forming a crater, I realised this is not bone. I was very surprised! After making the first crater I would make another beside it to bring the skin to the same level, then I would press on the crater "edges"/"rim" to flatten those out also, I would repeat this until the skin would not go any lower and all the surface shape had changed. I realised that I was able to do what they state in the study, to make my skull "round", since I had a big ridge/protrusion along the top of my scalp. Then the next day the ridge would return and I would press/knead it away. It took about 3 weeks of this until I felt something different, I reached my actual skull! So its clear that I had moved grease or something out of the way and my skin thickness had decreased, but it was a slow process. Now maybe 2 or 3 months later my ridge skin feels thin and I can feel my lumpy suture bone area. Also the craters I make now are much less deep than when I started and only slighty deeper than the craters I make on the sides of my head. However the shape of my skull has not changed greatly. I think I will always have a ridge because thats how the bone is shaped, its just much less prominent. I have a theory that the reason balding is patterned is something to do with the skull sutures since there is some spatial correlation, maybe some calcification process is promoted in these areas (to encourage the sutures to fuse/not reopen) but something goes wrong and the skin becomes fibrous??? Maybe the calcification is what traps the oil because thats where this thick tissue builds up???... So anyway its possible grease oil is being pushed out and some calcification/fibrosis is being broken up with DT.

I should also say that I I think some of my regrowth is from my hair washing alternative. I have not used shampoo for the last year at all and for years prior was quite infrequent used also. I dont like the idea of putting all sorts of chemicals on my scalp that man didnt need until the last 50 years, it doesnt make sense. Surely there is some equilibrium the body establishes with the amount of oil production when one doesnt wash and the scalp is healthy. Anyway, I invented a good sort of cleanse for my scalp to combat the possibility of an infection in the skin as CS has pointed out studies of. I think this is a possibility because of the dandruff, excess oil, general inflammation and itchiness in my balding areas. And if the trapped grease, oil, calcification is stopping bloodflow, the body doesnt have a way to combat it and so the bacteria can flourish and grow beyond what the body would normally permit. So, the "cleanse" is to put a few drops of 10% lugols iodine solution into a full waterpik container and waterpik my scalp on the highest setting "10". For those who aren't familiar with waterpik they are dental water jets that are used to remove plaque and get food, etc. in between your teeth and also wash gingival and periodontal pockets. Its quite painful as it is quite a strong jet but hasn't damaged my hair since using it for over a year. It feels amazing afterwards as the whole area burns. Its like your entire scalp is being heated. I know the burn is due to the iodine since doing it water only produces no burn. Its also great for clearing away the sand like substance that I used to find all over my scalp, which are possibly calcification deposits that the skin has pushed out. (side note: would be a good way to track if one is trying to stop calcification with K2, magnesium, boron, etc. supplements.) Since doing it I've noticed less dandruff and scab like material, much reduced itchyness(bacteria controlled?) and also some regrowth of strong terminal hairs. But I think the most foundational way to solve dandruff problems is to eat more liver and high zinc foods since Vit A and zinc status have been shown to control it, there is a good thread on a ray peat forum about this. I have experimented with ratios of Vit A and zinc and they are influential on skin sebum/oil levels. (I dried my skin and even eyes out too much by going too high on Vit A.)

So at the moment my theory on hair loss involves possibilities of infection in the skin, calcification processes and oil buildup etc.. These are obviously influenced by general health, thyroid health(iodine) esp, diet/nutrition(every should read Western A Price), toxicity load and some genetic components. I think the manual methods people are using are helpful since the body is able to heal, it does this constantly. However it seems most manuals like brushing only deal with the superficial later of skin(i.e. they work by getting blood to flow to the area and the body does the rest), whereas DT is finally a way to stimulate the body to heal deeper layers of skin. Since I saw this to be true from doing DT therapy myself, it occurred to me to google similar deep kneading massage for other problems. Since I have suspected all moles (esp since they can become cancerous..) and facial blemishes to be abnormalities of skin I looked to see if anyone had tried to knead their skin in other areas than the scalp. I was astonished to find the results of a one "Mukunda M" that frequents the yahoo answers site and other forums(google "Mukunda M" to see). This person has no less than 5,700 posts on yahoo answers. He generally replies to queries about how to remove moles, freckles, wrinkles, acne. He states that when he was young, he was rubbing his face to try improve pigmentation, acne, etc. and was surprised that along with it removing pigmentation, freckles etc, it made some moles vanish! Interestingly his method appears very similar to DT. He says to rub firmly for 30 mins a day using any oil except toxic seed oils, he says it require weeks to see improvements... this is basically the same as DT and people reply and say they have been able to improve their skin, while moles and blemishes disappear! I saw that his claims were quite broad then occurred to me that he might have something to say about hairloss, well what do you know, he has a lot of replies on yahoo answers for guys wanting to solve their hairloss. and the procedure is basically the same, get some oil and deep massage it into the scalp for 30 mins a day. He also says to get a millitary brush and do a lot of brushing. He says he has been able to keep his hair while his two other brothers and his father have all lost most of their hair. He also says not to use any products on your skin, including sunscreen as they are all toxic and many see improvements just from stopping use of them.

I have not completely regrown my hair, but what I have seen so far suggests it will all come back, however only time will tell. I think we do not give the body enough credit. It can heal its own tissue better than any product if it is just supplied with the right materials(as in diet, some peptides, or some other fancy marketing hype) and its healing mechanisms are stimulated locally by various methods.

Along with the evidence I've already presented I think Tom Hagertys ideas are supportive, it seems he can create blood flow by filling muscles with blood some of which would reach hair. The manual guys treat the superficial layers. However DT deals with all the skin layers, but I think it must be particularly good at stimulating the healing of deeper tissues.

Also I'll point out this website where "skin stretching" has been shown to encourage skin fibroblasts, etc... "Most studies are pointing to these cells as the possible be-all-end-all in tissue rejuvenation. Fibroblast cells found in the connective tissue produce and secrete fibers (collagens, elastic fibers and other substances), especially during wound healing and tissue repair."
http://www.prlog.org/11842974-flexeffectcom-promotes-scientifically-proven-stretching-exercises-for-the-face-to-combat-aging.html
and the 65 yr old creators thick healthy looking, mole free skin: http://www.flexeffect.com/debpic.htm

Mukunda M example yahoo answers reply about how to regrow hair:
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20140319003154AAcBxGx

Mukunda M example yahoo answers reply about how to remove moles:
https://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120123191446AAUT0nL

ive heard the same thing many times. yet to see any evidence though. the problem is, heavy brushing or massaging for long periods, has the potential to increase hairloss.

noone wants to do that unless u can prove it will come back stronger. i just dont see why there isnt some proof like pictures. sure u can say ppl dont like to post photos, or ppl dont owe us anything. thats fine. but dont make the claims if u cant back them up.

rofl wrote:ive heard the same thing many times.  yet to see any evidence though.  the problem is, heavy brushing or massaging for long periods, has the potential to increase hairloss.

noone wants to do that unless u can prove it will come back stronger.  i just dont see why there isnt some proof like pictures.  sure u can say ppl dont like to post photos, or ppl dont owe us anything.  thats fine.  but dont make the claims if u cant back them up.

So you're saying that shouldn't make claims if we can't please you ROFL? Lol right.

Massaging for long periods of time has the potential to increase hair loss? Wow that is quite a theory you got going on there. Completely goes against the anecdotal evidence we have on this forum (and on several different other forums) as well as the positive studies posted on here about the benefits of massage/scalp massage.

I can see how maybe brushing can cause some hair loss... but I doubt massaging can.

bananasinpajamas wrote:well i actually refute your main assertion, "He has pictures of regrowth bro"

Again, from his collection of close up pics on this site, you cannot determine what is regrowth and what is existing. If you have pictures of him from a previous forum being slick bald then that's another story. I'd love for this to be the miracle cure. Id massage my head for an hour a day if it was.

Complexx wrote:

boogv510 wrote:

Complexx wrote:Why would anybody lie about regrowth.... Nobody is selling anything here. We also have members that have had problems with growing hair while on other methods before that are claiming a stop in hair loss/regrowth. Why don't you just start the exercises (if you haven't done so already) and document your own progress if you don't like it?

You need to relax bro, its not about lying, people want regrowth so badly they start imagining things, ive been there before, so I know. You remember the boar brush thread, people were claiming results  and what not, still nothing to show. Im not saying dt doesn't work but you need to relax and stop saying this is 100% guaranteed cure.

Imagining? He has pictures of regrowth bro. How long are we gonna sit here and eat shit by arguing about lack of results? We should all either 1) Take people's word for it (especially since a good amount of them have reported no regrowth from other methods or #2 Document our own results.

DT has worked for nearly every single person I've seen on this forum & most of us gave experienced some "universal symptoms" (safe to call them universal I believe.) I've never seen anything like this besides what was happening in the dermarolling thread before they shut it down.

PS: whodat really took the words right out of my mouth! I salute the guys on here that obtained regrowth TWO YEARS after sticking with manuals... This is not a short process you guys. Whodat's post should be pinned on this damn thread.

After this maybe you can decide to start the actual process and rely on your own pics and evidence. You will find that

1) This thing actually works

2) You wasted time looking for "evidence" when you could have tried this free technique out and achieved some regrowth/halt in hair loss by now and

3) That your own evidence is the very best evidence. You have nothing to loose besides time well spent. it's free, & from what we're seeing here, it's effective,as well.

These are pics of the same spot.. Please compare the first pic, which to my understanding is actually a pic DREXX took AFTER he regrew some hair on his slick bald temples, with the fourth (4) pic all the way at the bottom. If you don't[ see the difference here then you might as well move on to some technique that you feel more comfortable with.

Slowmoe and several other people (such as Duke for example) have irrefutable proof of hair regrowth and bettered hair quality, too. So it's your choice whether or not you want to spend years of your life on this forum going back and fourth about whether this is a cure or not when instead you can hopping on here for more important things like learning about effective diets and how to get over certain health conditions etc. etc. etc.

but isnt the area surrounding the mole, the temple points, (not sure wat to call them) or the tops of the side burns, in the non mpb area?

mine seem to be constantly growing bigger. i always have new growth there, while the area above keeps receding.lol

by the way complex i did congratulate drexx on these pics. i do appreciate him making the effort.

it seems a cruel irony that while certain areas lose hair, other areas seem to get more hair. like we all have a number of active hairs that ,must be maintained at any point in time. for every hair u lose on ur head, u gain one below the belt. lmao.

massager wrote:It won't let me upload pictures

Hey massager - I see you only joined up a few days ago, there may be a one week restriction, or something to that effect, before you can upload images?

I think pics are key here - without the pictures, we're going to go around in circles, just like on the Papilla Power / Margo threads. To me, Drex's pics are convincing, to others, not so much, but the more guys we have contributing, the more solid this will be.

Everyone's different, some people need only a very little anecdotal 'evidence' before they are willing to try out a method, other people need solid 'scientific proof', no one personality type is better than the other.

I think that we're going to see more 'evidence' here as the year unfolds. If guys are willing to have a pic of their melon on the internet, they should go ahead and take pics, and then upload them when they think they can see improvement - we need as many contributors as we can get.

IMHO, the guys who take pics should try to maintain similar lighting, distance, angle, hair length etc. as best they can with their pics (imagine you're looking at someone else's pics - what would you need to see in order to be convinced that a method is working?); and the rest of the guys who are doing the looking on need to not be so judgemental and realise that the people who are uploading pics are doing them, and everyone else here, a massive favour by making themselves vulnerable and open to scrutiny :-)

whodathunkit wrote:

boog wrote:You remember the boar brush thread, people were claiming results  and what not, still nothing to show. Im not saying dt doesn't work but you need to relax and stop saying this is 100% guaranteed cure.

 
One big problem with manual methods is that they require a great deal of discipline to continue for the length of time necessary to potentially reap big results.  Most of us don't have that discipline.  I don't.  Reportedly ot takes a year to make big gains with manuals, and it seems that most of us drop off after 4-6 months.  So I'm not entirely sure that it's the methods that are to blame for lack of verifiable progress.  

Myself, I was making decent progress with brushing and Maliniak a couple of years ago, and even posted some pictures, but got tired/ragged out/busy, and just stopped the regimen for a while.  My hair is still in better shape than it was before I started manuals, but I've lost some ground from when I last took pics.

I did boar brush for almost 2 years, so you can say I did enuff and should have some results ri? My hair actually got worst. one thing I do notice when I started doing dt is that all my miniaturization hair fell off, same goes for the area that was thinning, all gone, I hope its a good thing.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade here, but a previous poster just mentioned that kneading should be carried out instead of massage. Wouldn't firm kneading cause cellular and capillary compression in the same way pillows cause compression? So, on that note, wouldn't kneading cause reduced bloodflow if capillaries become "squashed"?

Maybe the kneading is hormetic since it is a shorter exposure time.

boogv510 wrote:I did boar brush for almost 2 years, so you can say I did enuff and should have some results ri? My hair actually got worst. one thing I do notice when I started doing dt is that all my miniaturization hair fell off, same goes for the area that was thinning, all gone, I hope its a good thing.

boog, how long have you been doing dt?

Also, when you were brushing, did you do any other manual (like non-dt massge, violet ray, etc.)?

One more question:  were you one of the ones who was brushing until the scalp was bleeding?

FWIW, I don't know that anyone around here ever claimed that boar brushing was enough in and of itself to regrow hair.   The claims for manuals have all centered around some really vigorous stimulation like massage or toweling, or even focused wounding like with dermarollers. Brushing is considered a good adjunct to other manual methods, and can greatly improve the condition of the hair, but unless your hairloss problem is very mild, it probably can't correct hairloss.

I personally doubt if it's possible for someone with an AGA problem to achieve results with brushing alone.  

At the very least it's almost impossible to brush that vigorously without wounding yourself, and I don't think brushing until wounding is a good idea.  The wounds beget by brushing would have to be more like skin tears that would scar, instead of punctures like with dermarollers/dermastamps that would heal without scarring (thus generating the "right kind" of inflammatory and then healing response in the process).  All the experts in dermarolling caution against dragging the roller/needles and tearing the skin, precisely for that reason.

Xenon wrote:I don't want to rain on anyone's parade here, but a previous poster just mentioned that kneading should be carried out instead of massage. Wouldn't firm kneading cause cellular and capillary compression in the same way pillows cause compression? So, on that note, wouldn't kneading cause reduced bloodflow if capillaries become "squashed"?

Compression is only bad when it's for an extended period of time. Very short episodic compression (like with massage) actually creates a kind of pumping action that brings more blood (and lymph) into the area, increasing circulation and also increasing detox, because when the new circulation moves away from the area it carries cellular waste with it.

this takes a ton of effort to do twice a day, my shoulders, triceps and upper back get sore doing this. Is there any reason why the study would lie about 100% success rate? it kind of makes sense with the dome thing to flatten it down and make it more round.

boogv510 wrote:

whodathunkit wrote:

boog wrote:You remember the boar brush thread, people were claiming results  and what not, still nothing to show. Im not saying dt doesn't work but you need to relax and stop saying this is 100% guaranteed cure.

 
One big problem with manual methods is that they require a great deal of discipline to continue for the length of time necessary to potentially reap big results.  Most of us don't have that discipline.  I don't.  Reportedly ot takes a year to make big gains with manuals, and it seems that most of us drop off after 4-6 months.  So I'm not entirely sure that it's the methods that are to blame for lack of verifiable progress.  

Myself, I was making decent progress with brushing and Maliniak a couple of years ago, and even posted some pictures, but got tired/ragged out/busy, and just stopped the regimen for a while.  My hair is still in better shape than it was before I started manuals, but I've lost some ground from when I last took pics.

I did boar brush for almost 2 years, so you can say I did enuff and should have some results ri? My hair actually got worst.  one thing I do notice when I started doing dt is that all my miniaturization hair fell off, same goes for the area that was thinning, all gone, I hope its a good thing.

Boog, when you brushed, how long did you do it for, and did you do it daily? Also, how vigorously?

Thanks.

Complexx, if it does not work it is not time well spent. It is quite the opposite.

3) That your own evidence is the very best evidence. You have nothing to loose besides time well spent. it's free, & from what we're seeing here, it's effective,as well.

A lot of logic in this thread is a bit off.

There is a lot of causation correlation fallacy everywhere here with regards to spongy flesh around areas of hair loss, oily scalp, tight scalp, etc. In short, it is like seeing smoke come from a fire and assuming that smoke caused the fire.  At this point there is no direct research to link these as the actual cause of hair loss.

On top of that there are huge assumptions about calcification. Do we even have a study or a biopsy showing massive calcification in the follicle or in the scalp? I know we have people on the internet writing about it, but in all the years of hair loss research and dissection of cadavers has anyone ever observed this? I have not read a study stating this.

In my opinion DT, boar brushing, towel rubbing can help (as we finally have seen something with Drexx's pictures that Complexx posted, thank you btw), but so far there is nothing that proves it has to do with reshaping the head, increasing blood flow, removing calcium, etc. Based on studies regarding skin stretching, it is what I initially though--you are causing micro damage to the scalp and causing a release of growth factors.

I will also be continuing my derma rolling.

sizzlinghairs wrote:

boogv510 wrote:

whodathunkit wrote:

boog wrote:You remember the boar brush thread, people were claiming results  and what not, still nothing to show. Im not saying dt doesn't work but you need to relax and stop saying this is 100% guaranteed cure.

 
One big problem with manual methods is that they require a great deal of discipline to continue for the length of time necessary to potentially reap big results.  Most of us don't have that discipline.  I don't.  Reportedly ot takes a year to make big gains with manuals, and it seems that most of us drop off after 4-6 months.  So I'm not entirely sure that it's the methods that are to blame for lack of verifiable progress.  

Myself, I was making decent progress with brushing and Maliniak a couple of years ago, and even posted some pictures, but got tired/ragged out/busy, and just stopped the regimen for a while.  My hair is still in better shape than it was before I started manuals, but I've lost some ground from when I last took pics.

I did boar brush for almost 2 years, so you can say I did enuff and should have some results ri? My hair actually got worst.  one thing I do notice when I started doing dt is that all my miniaturization hair fell off, same goes for the area that was thinning, all gone, I hope its a good thing.

Boog, when you brushed, how long did you do it for, and did you do it daily? Also, how vigorously?

Thanks.

about 5 mins or so, I do it until my scalp is red. As for as dt, Im on my 5 months mark

Did you do it everyday religiously? And I think that guy ferox recommended to do it like 10 minutes a day?

Did you focus on just the problem areas or all over the scalp?

Only reason I ask is because I'm currently brushing as well.

Thanks