Re: I dont think DHT is the cause of hairloss

ViolatedBird Fri May 25, 2012 11:18 am

LawOfThelema wrote:You didnt look hard enough

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v109/n3/abs/5610071a.html

Thanks for that. For those that are lazy, here's your proof:

Findings revealed that both women and men have higher levels of receptors and 5-reductase type I and II in frontal hair follices than in occipital follicles, whereas higher levels of aromatase were found in their occipital follicles. There are marked quantitative differences in levels of androgen receptors and the three enzymes, which we find to be primarily in the outer root sheath of the hair follicles in the two genders. Androgen receptor content in female frontal hair follicles was approximately 40% lower than in male frontal hair follicle. Cytochrome P-450-aromatase content in women's frontal hair follicles was six times greater than in frontal hair follicles in men. Frontal hair follicles in women had 3 and 3.5 times less 5- reductase type I and II, respectively, than frontal hair follicles in men. These differences in levels of androgen receptor and steroid-converting enzymes may account for the different clinical presentations of androgenetic alopecia in women and men.

a<r Fri May 25, 2012 11:30 am

This falls back to old topics on the upregulation of the androgen receptor by different levels of inflammation, NF-κB being one of them. Gimme a bit to dig that stuff out.

a<r Fri May 25, 2012 11:40 am

Finally, IL-6 activated the AR gene promoter, resulting in increased AR mRNA and protein levels in LNCaP cells. These results demonstrate that IL-6 induces AR expression and are the first report of cytokine-mediated induction of the AR promoter. Taken together, our results suggest that IL-6 induces AR activity through both increasing AR gene expression and activating the AR in the absence of androgen in CaP cells. These results provide a mechanism through which IL-6 may contribute to the development of androgen-independent CaP.

I'm posting between making dinner and gardening, I'll post more in a sec but I wanted to drop this, it's a study based on prostate cells, I'll post more specific ones when in a little bit. IL-6 has been strongly correlated with MPB and heart disease btw, I've done a lot of posting on that and how it all ties together with everything we know about low level inflammitory condtions.

ViolatedBird Fri May 25, 2012 1:03 pm

a
Finally, IL-6 activated the AR gene promoter, resulting in increased AR mRNA and protein levels in LNCaP cells. These results demonstrate that IL-6 induces AR expression and are the first report of cytokine-mediated induction of the AR promoter. Taken together, our results suggest that IL-6 induces AR activity through both increasing AR gene expression and activating the AR in the absence of androgen in CaP cells. These results provide a mechanism through which IL-6 may contribute to the development of androgen-independent CaP.

I'm posting between making dinner and gardening, I'll post more in a sec but I wanted to drop this, it's a study based on prostate cells, I'll post more specific ones when in a little bit. IL-6 has been strongly correlated with MPB and heart disease btw, I've done a lot of posting on that and how it all ties together with everything we know about low level inflammitory condtions.

The standard IH regimen addresses this low-level inflammation, as far was we know, correct? Or, does this indicate that we ought to be doing more?

a<r Fri May 25, 2012 1:11 pm

That's very subjective from user to user, I've seen cases where simple diet modification is enough, others have gotten results from the top 6 and have maintained it, others have only seen results from it after doing things such as removing fillings.

Personally, the Top 6 did absolutely nothing noticable for me. It took more.

AS54 Fri May 25, 2012 1:17 pm

This becomes really interesting when you consider that leptin is very similar to IL-6 and probably has its evolutionary roots in IL-6. Leptin resistance is an inflammatory condition and high circulating leptin leads not only to obesity, but perhaps contributes to MPB according to the information A > R has been posting.

a<r Fri May 25, 2012 1:36 pm

I liken it to a tangled bag of snakes, yeah, it's all in there and frustratingly it all turns into a dense mess of factors that begin to influence eachother and themselves times over, whether upstream or down. Leptin is interesting to me, I posted a ton about it a while ago but forgot about it. ViolatedBird you've got a great brain on you, you might dig some of the debates carried on in those old threads. For now here's a great example of epigenetic silencing of inflammation based at the androgen receptor level, and lo and behold, it's a major part of the IH regimen.

Curcumin Blocks the Activation of Androgen and Interlukin-6 on Prostate-Specific Antigen Expression in Human Prostatic Carcinoma Cells
KE-HUNG TSUI*,{dagger}, TSUI-HSIA FENG{ddagger}, CHANG-MEI LIN§, PHEI-LANG CHANG* AND HORNG-HENG JUANG{dagger},§

From the * Department of Urology and the {dagger} Molecular Image Center, Chang Gung Memorial Hospital, and the {ddagger} School of Nursing and the § Department of Anatomy, Chang Gung University, Kwei-Shan, Tao-Yuan, Taiwan, Republic of China.

Correspondence to: Dr Horng-Heng Juang, Department of Anatomy, Chang Gung University, 259 Wen-Hua 1st Road, Kwei-Shan, Tao-Yuan 333, Taiwan, Republic of China (e-mail: hhj143@mail.cgu.edu.tw).

Curcumin, a naturally occurring compound, exhibits anticancer chemopreventive effects. We evaluated the effects and mechanisms of curcumin on the gene expression of prostate-specific antigen (PSA) in human androgen-sensitive prostatic carcinoma cells. LNCaP cells were used to determine the effect of curcumin on PSA expression. Quantitative PSA expression was assessed by reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR), enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA), and immunoblot assay. The modulation of androgen, interlukin-6 (IL-6), and prostate-derived Ets factor (PDEF) on the PSA gene was identified by transient gene expression assay with the use of a PSA reporter vector. The effect of curcumin on the activity of androgen receptors was evaluated by electrophoretic mobility shift assay (EMSA). Immunoblot assays, RT-PCR, and ELISA indicated that curcumin treatments blocked the stimulation of methyltrienolone (R1881) and IL-6 on PSA gene expression in LNCaP cells. The effects of curcumin appear to be mediated via the androgen response element of PSA gene. Results from immunoblot assay and EMSA revealed the modulation of curcumin on the expression of androgen receptor and androgen receptor binding activity on androgen response element of PSA gene. Although overexpression of PDEF dramatically enhanced PSA gene expression, the results of immunoblot assays and transient reporter assays indicated that curcumin treatments did not affect the gene expression of PDEF. Curcumin inhibits R1881- and IL-6–mediated PSA gene expression in LNCaP cells through down-regulation of the expression and activity of androgen receptors.

Guest Fri May 25, 2012 3:27 pm

why is everyone ignoring what ViolatedBird is saying??

The problem IS NOT WITH YOUR BODY. The problem is programmed in the follicles itself. No matter what you do - follicles that are programmed to shrink when exposed to DHT WILL SHRINK!

a<r Fri May 25, 2012 4:10 pm

2020, nice to see you're back and as wise as always. What violatedbird said wasn't ignored silly, it was countered with Complementary research.

Mastery Fri May 25, 2012 4:40 pm

Ha ha - that's why I just bought another 3 bottles of it

And if your drink it in alkaline water you can actually feel the follicles plumping as the inflammation calms down...

2020 - there is always a way. The body is amazing. Just ask A > R - he rocks, I now I met him and he has even mnroe hair now. So much for progrmmed shrinking...

You know today I was thiniking about is there any one I know in their 80's with a FULL, FULL head of hair. I know one guy here in his 60's with super thick hair and he swims in the in the ocean all year round other than that it is only meditation or Tai Chi Masters. Hmmn - ocean and stress - are they the # 1 way to reduce inflammation?

In conjunction with great nutrition (Immortal..) PROBABLY....

ViolatedBird Fri May 25, 2012 7:50 pm

Mastery wrote:Ha ha - that's why I just bought another 3 bottles of it

And if your drink it in alkaline water you can actually feel the follicles plumping as the inflammation calms down...

To what drink are you referring?

Inflammation is certainly a part of the process of hair loss. Anti-rejection drugs that kill the immune system also happen to halt hair loss. Any hair loss that follows a the "M" shaped front-to-back pattern, however, is provably initiated due to androgen receptor distribution and the effect of local androgens, be they mediated by other things that upregulate or downregulate the AR receptor itself, such as IL-6, local estrogens, lack of competition for the AR between T and DHT, etc. In the end, the presence or absence of pattern hair loss is begins with the net sum of AR signalling.

None of those evils, such as inflammation, will cause MBP in a male without that particular AR variant. They may cause diffuse thinning, but that's entirely different. That's why we know they aren't the cause. It is still likely possible to inhibit other parts of the process. Systemically attacking inflammation, fibrosis, scarring... introducing strong anti-oxidants.... etc.

It important to note which things are correlated with "hair loss" and which are correlated with real AGA or MPB. Any number of things, such as disease, stress, poor nutrition, radiation exposure, etc. will cause hair LOSS. However, it won't be MALE PATTERN hair loss. Instead, all hair will (usually) be affected uniformly. That is not at all the same as androgenic alopecia -- the often permanent and patterned death of hair follicles upon which this board focuses.

schpiloch123 Fri May 25, 2012 8:56 pm

Violatedbird: If you are so convinced that the follicles are programmed to shrink and die, and there is not much we can do it about, why do you visit this site? The reason I like this site is because the people here try and find the other possible causes for hair loss and don't just believe what they are told by the medical community (Not just limited to hair loss either).

The problem with modern western medicine is that they have no belief in the power of the mind, but its well documented that positive thinking along with common sensical treatments have the biggest impact.

IMO if people didn't have a huge stick up their asses about herbal treatments, and natural curing, they would be far more succesfull. Whereas all the drugs we are given by big pharma work so well at treating the symptoms probably due to the fact that people will blindly believe what a conventional doctor tells them.

ferox Fri May 25, 2012 9:04 pm

2020 wrote:why is everyone ignoring what ViolatedBird is saying??

The problem IS NOT WITH YOUR BODY. The problem is programmed in the follicles itself. No matter what you do - follicles that are programmed to shrink when exposed to DHT WILL SHRINK!

lol...

SlowMoe Fri May 25, 2012 10:03 pm

Saying our hair is programmed to die is like saying a person with a lot of fat cells and a slow metabolism is programmed to get fat; yes, there may be factors which make them more likely to put on weight, but it is up to that person to take steps to dodge that bullet

CausticSymmetry Sat May 26, 2012 6:43 am

2020 wrote:why is everyone ignoring what ViolatedBird is saying??

The problem IS NOT WITH YOUR BODY. The problem is programmed in the follicles itself. No matter what you do - follicles that are programmed to shrink when exposed to DHT WILL SHRINK!

2020 - I think this forum was too radical for you, did you not say were you out?

Note to new members: There is a lot to read on this forum and every few months there are some trends that occur that revolve around whatever hot topic of the period. I will say that in short this whole puzzle has been figured out, except in cases where there is cicatricial (scarring).

The genetic question keeps being brought up here, but really it is a pharmaceutical creation. The real answer is to discover your weaknesses and learn how to resolve them. Most of the answers are already here if you dig deep enough.

Guest Sat May 26, 2012 7:02 am

SlowMoe wrote:Saying our hair is programmed to die is like saying a person with a lot of fat cells and a slow metabolism is programmed to get fat; yes, there may be factors which make them more likely to put on weight, but it is up to that person to take steps to dodge that bullet

do you not realize that certain follicles have a different genetic composition??? Why do you think hair transplants work?

Guest Sat May 26, 2012 7:07 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:
2020 - I think this forum was too radical for you, did you not say were you out?

I can't believe the stupidity that's going on here....

CausticSymmetry wrote:
Note to new members: There is a lot to read on this forum and every few months there are some trends that occur that revolve around whatever hot topic of the period. I will say that in short this whole puzzle has been figured out, except in cases where there is cicatricial (scarring).

hair loss has been figured out? Have you thought about filing an actual patent for that instead of selling some "natural" treatments to ignorant masses?

CausticSymmetry wrote:
The genetic question keeps being brought up here, but really it is a pharmaceutical creation. The real answer is to discover your weaknesses and learn how to resolve them. Most of the answers are already here if you dig deep enough.

you cannot be serious.... of course MPB is genetic, they actually found genes for it!!

Guest Sat May 26, 2012 7:10 am

schpiloch123 wrote:Violatedbird: If you are so convinced that the follicles are programmed to shrink and die, and there is not much we can do it about, why do you visit this site? The reason I like this site is because the people here try and find the other possible causes for hair loss and don't just believe what they are told by the medical community (Not just limited to hair loss either).

because there is something we can do but it's certainly not using any of the methods/drugs proposed on this forum.
Start by attacking a specific problem that is excess PGD2 and not worrying about your thyroid levels.... my god this is like arguing religion on a christianity forum

a<r Sat May 26, 2012 7:17 am

Hey 2020, just curious, which way did you vote this year?

SlowMoe Sat May 26, 2012 7:18 am

2020 wrote:
SlowMoe wrote:Saying our hair is programmed to die is like saying a person with a lot of fat cells and a slow metabolism is programmed to get fat; yes, there may be factors which make them more likely to put on weight, but it is up to that person to take steps to dodge that bullet

do you not realize that certain follicles have a different genetic composition??? Why do you think hair transplants work?

Uhm what I meant is that there are ways to counteract whatever weaknesses we nay have. It is up to you to be proactive.

Do you not realize that blood circulation in balding scalps is 2.6x lower than non balding scalps? Doesnt it seem obvious that a 60% reduction of blood going to a certain part of the body will have adverse effects?

About transplants:
A LOT of implants fail after 10-15 years. And I'm talking about millionaire celebs who have the best doctors.
Implants might stay alive for a while because either they are tapped in deeper, or more likely because the wounding process stimulates angiogenesis and supplies the hair with fresh blood vessels.

Guest Sat May 26, 2012 7:19 am

aHey 2020, just curious, which way did you vote this year?

what makes you think I'm from US?

gdfghh Sat May 26, 2012 7:23 am

2020 wrote:Start by attacking a specific problem that is excess PGD2 and not worrying about your thyroid levels

I don't think you understand how your overall health plays in MBP, especially your thyroid. And excess PGD2 isn't necessary the problem, the SOURCE of this is the problem you want to deal with. No drug will deal with the root cause of anything.

Guest Sat May 26, 2012 7:23 am

SlowMoe wrote:
Uhm what I meant is that there are ways to counteract whatever weaknesses we nay have. It is up to you to be proactive.

ok so you people admit that it's GENETIC, meaning that the problem was already inherited rather than accumulated through your life. Yes or no?

having said that, YES of course you can treat it, but not with "tools" listed on this forum...

SlowMoe wrote:
Do you not realize that blood circulation in balding scalps is 2.6x lower than non balding scalps? Doesnt it seem obvious that a 60% reduction of blood going to a certain part of the body will have adverse effects?

My god this forum is stuck in the 80's.... what makes you think it's not the other way around -- smaller the follicle - less bloodflow needed.

Do you not remember this study:

The author transplanted composite skin grafts from balding, non-balding, and bald areas of the scalp, to the skin of the arm. The galea aponeurotica was trimmed away from the grafts. The patient was a 29-year-old male with progressive male pattern baldness (MPB).

The transplants from the balding area became bald at the same rate as the balding donor site in the receding frontal hairline, whereas the transplants taken from the non-balding in the occiput continued to grow the same amount and quality of terminal hairs. Bald grafts taken in front of the receding hairline remained bald. This shows that the cause of MPB lies in the follicle itself or in its very close surrounding and does not depend on the galea aponeurotica, the increased tension of the scalp or of its muscles; the diminished vascular supply to the scalp or any other regional factor localized to the head area. It also shows that the “balding clock” keeps time even when the follicle is transplanted to another region of the body.”

^ this proves that circulation has absolutely nothing to do with hair loss.

gdfghh Sat May 26, 2012 7:28 am

2020 wrote:
ok so you people admit that it's GENETIC, meaning that the problem was already inherited rather than accumulated through your life. Yes or no?

having said that, YES of course you can treat it, but not with "tools" listed on this forum...

Quoting Danny Roddy, "I think of genes as "the gun" and diet as "the trigger." This is true for much more than baldness. Genes are not destiny.

Guest Sat May 26, 2012 7:28 am

Satan wrote:
I don't think you understand how your overall health plays in MBP, especially your thyroid. And excess PGD2 isn't necessary the problem, the SOURCE of this is the problem you want to deal with. No drug will deal with the root cause of anything.

true, however the source of that problem is genetic or else you would be able to normalize those PGD2 levels by "perfecting" your health which won't work.... sure, you can play around with all those supplements and maybe your levels will go down a little but since you're dealing with a genetic condition, only an actual drug would be able to knock PGD2 effectively

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