Do you think it's possible I just had an increase in DHT? Simple as?

You know I wrote this big long reply (well, fairly long) while I was waiting for a train on my phone, and then the browser messed up and I lost the whole thing! lol

Silly technology ¬_¬ hehe

Right erm, I think what I was saying is just summarizing my understanding of this so far! So it's that as we get older, if we do not live healthily enough as men, our testosterone drops too low, our estradiol climbs too high, causing our body to upregulate it's androgen receptors to produce the same amount of DHT from what testosterone is left. This maintains our masculinity, but comes at the cost of our hair? Is that the idea?

I had actually followed this way of thinking a bit before, but I understand a bit more now, and I've come across enough information to come back to it again. It explains the correlation of prostate size and degree of MPB, and also explain why older men do not seem to have HIGHER dht, and yet lose hair more. Because the body is upregulating DHT conversion merely to keep it static (which is what we observe in studies). This FINALLY fits with all the studies hehe

So erm, let's see, some questions

First of all, is inhibiting aromatase bad because it also creates "good" estrogen? Estradiol is "bad" estrogen?

Second, if we reduce estradiol, does the prostate gradually shrink?


Hm, I also don't understand which stage of the receptor gets upregulated, or whether it is the number of them. And I believe the body has no reaction merely to low testosterone, just high estradiol?

So if, for arguments sake, we were to just cause estradiol levels to plummet (directly, without affecting aromatase, etc) do we think that MPB would stop completely in time? or?


Hoppi

But wait erm.. surely if the testosterone is less and androgen receptors are more sensitive, the end result would be the same because there is less testosterone to be sensitive to.. this is confusing ._. lol

Here is the way I see it... bare with me here.


Estradiol can bind to the androgen-receptor (SHBG+SHBG-R) and activate it just like DHT. When DHT and estradiol bind to the SHBG+SHBG-R complex, it activates IGF-1 within that specific tissue, causing its growth and enlargement. Over time, estrogen accumulates in places like the prostate, causing prostate-enlargement or the sebaceous-glands causing enlarged-sebaceous-glands.


So where does this estrogen come from? It comes from body-fat and low levels of SHBG. Body-fat makes very potent and powerful estrogens that deplete your testosterone levels both by decreasing synthesis from the testicles and by competing with it for a ride on SHBG. Since DHT has a very high affinity to SHBG, nothing is strong enough to compete with DHT and it stays put, bound to the SHBG-SHBGR complex. There are numerous studies done showing that high-fat diets directly increase estrogen levels. Animal-fat is just like human’s body-fat in regards to it aromatase-enzymes; if you are eating animal-fat, you are eating aromatase!


Low levels of SHBG are brought-on thru the consumption of cow-milk-proteins, high-fat/high-protein diets, lack of exercise and sunshine.

Consuming dairy-products stimulates your body to lower IGFBP-3, which increases free-IGF-1, which then depresses SHBG levels and increase the amount of testosterone that is available to convert away into estrogen and DHT that then binds to the SHBG+SHBG-R complex in the prostate or scalp with high affinity.

High-fat diets lower SHBG by decreasing insulin-sensitivity, leaving excess insulin in the blood, which then lowers IGFBP-3. High-protein diets directly lowers many other IGFBP's like IGFBP-1 and IGFBP-2 and is shown to be negatively correlated with SHBG in numerous studies.

A lack of exercise is also a very huge factor in this. Exercise increases insulin sensitivity and HDL-cholesterol levels (the good cholesterol). SHBG is negatively associated with insulin-resistance, body-fat and low-HDL. Exercise helps with all three of these variables! It also increases HGH (human-growth-hormone) that helps to increase IGFBP-3. Sunshine increases 25-hydroxyvitamin-D3, which also helps to increase IGFBP-3.

Fasting also drastically improves insulin-sensitivity and increases SHBG by burning body-fat for fuel, lowering bad-estrogens and other adipocytokines produced by fat-cells.

Hm very interesting

I am starting to understand the potential connection of estradiol to all this I think. But, I wonder why it was that this felt like it happened to me so suddenly? I had the stomach cramps (which I believe was due to an intolerance to egg - since cutting egg from my diet I haven't had any), then the skin thinning and body hair increase, then the hair loss

Do you think the egg caused all of this? Or? I mean, perhaps it upset my body's balance and threw me off, or perhaps it is merely a symptom of a wider digestive problem leading to wider health problems.

I am thinking of using something like fluridil as a hair loss quick fix, and once I have an effective topical regimen in place (with stuff like fluridil, RU, Spectral RS etc, as long as none of this will do any harm) I will concentrate on my situation internally.

I do think all this fits with what we observe in society, very well. I see lots of healthy-looking guys with hair and like, kinda overweight, bald men with lots of body hair lol

Surely that body hair isn't pure genetics, or a sign of HIGHER testosterone!! lol

It all certainly feels very plausible to me

Right well, most of the studies and evidence I can find so far backs up this.

So, let's say the hormonal balance in a given balding male was corrected, and their health suddenly flicked back to that of a very healthy male... like.. would the prostate gradually shrink and the androgen receptors gradually downregulate?

From a fascinated, curious Hoppi! ^_^

It depends how long the prostate has been enlarged I'm sure. The prostate can shrink but I'm sure it's capacity to do so decreases the longer it's been exposed to adequate amounts of estradiol and DHT.

Hoppipolla wrote:You know I wrote this big long reply (well, fairly long) while I was waiting for a train on my phone, and then the browser messed up and I lost the whole thing! lol

Silly technology ¬_¬ hehe

Right erm, I think what I was saying is just summarizing my understanding of this so far! So it's that as we get older, if we do not live healthily enough as men, our testosterone drops too low, our estradiol climbs too high, causing our body to upregulate it's androgen receptors to produce the same amount of DHT from what testosterone is left. This maintains our masculinity, but comes at the cost of our hair? Is that the idea?

I had actually followed this way of thinking a bit before, but I understand a bit more now, and I've come across enough information to come back to it again. It explains the correlation of prostate size and degree of MPB, and also explain why older men do not seem to have HIGHER dht, and yet lose hair more. Because the body is upregulating DHT conversion merely to keep it static (which is what we observe in studies). This FINALLY fits with all the studies hehe

So erm, let's see, some questions

First of all, is inhibiting aromatase bad because it also creates "good" estrogen? Estradiol is "bad" estrogen?

Second, if we reduce estradiol, does the prostate gradually shrink?


Hm, I also don't understand which stage of the receptor gets upregulated, or whether it is the number of them. And I believe the body has no reaction merely to low testosterone, just high estradiol?

So if, for arguments sake, we were to just cause estradiol levels to plummet (directly, without affecting aromatase, etc) do we think that MPB would stop completely in time? or?


Hoppi

If you inhibit aromatase like with a drug you'll lower ALL estrogen, not just the inflammatory ones. Using things like DIM (in moderation) and phytoestrogens will lower estradiol and increase the estrogens that are beneficial for MPB.

I'm not saying that lowering estradiol is going to stop MPB. I just know that from my personal experiences that estradiol makes androgen receptors more potent (took 5 mg of fin a day for a while, had MASSIVE increase in test and estradiol, started growing body hair where I've never had it despite not having DHT) and it is not a useful estrogen for AGA while its metabolites (the 2 hydroxy's and estriol) are.

Hm, I wonder if adequate exercise, good diet, DIM, beta-sitosterol and lignans (I assume they are the part of flax seeds we want? ) would be along the right lines to correct this balance.

Thing is though if DIM is an aromatase inhibitor.. isn't that bad then?

Oh, btw baller how is your MPB at the mo? Like.. is it any better? misterE was saying his is completely gone.. I think anyway

Hoppipolla wrote:Hm, I wonder if adequate exercise, good diet, DIM, beta-sitosterol and lignans (I assume they are the part of flax seeds we want? ) would be along the right lines to correct this balance.

If I were you Hoppi, I would first focus on increasing your IGFBP's and SHBG to minimize the amount of (free) testosterone that is able to convert. Best way to increase IGFBP-3 and SHBG is to go on a very-low-fat/high-fiber vegan-diet like the McDougall-diet. Dairy-protein is a massive down-regulator of IGFBP-3 and SHBG, so is animal-protein (steak, chicken, eggs, etc.).

Second I would look into lowering estrogen levels by {1} lowering the amount of fat in your diet and body, this is where all the excess estrogen comes from. Remember Hoppi; the fat you eat is the fat you wear! High-fat diets are shown in numerous studies to increase estrogen levels by directly increasing body-fat (aromatase) and body-fat secretes very powerful estrogens and cytokines, animal-fat is aromatase and if you eat animal-fat, your body recognizes it as pre-made fat and it is effortlessly stored as body-fat; increasing aromatase and decreasing insulin-sensitivity... not to mention that dairy-products contains loads of estrogen, considering milk is from a pregnant-female-cow. Next increase lots of fiber because fiber is shown again and again to promote the excretion of estrogen thru the digestive-track. When estrogen is excreted it is "sent-out" with the bile. Dietary-fiber (which is found in high amounts in whole-grains, beans, vegetables, and fruits) binds with estrogen in the digestive track and increases its excretion from the body.

{2} Increasing estrogens main antagonist; progesterone. Phytosterols are known to have progesterone-like-effects, in fact that is how laboratories make synthetic-progesterone-creams; by extracting phytosterols from vegetables! Phytoestrogens don't increase progesterone, but they do lower the estradiol-to-progesterone level. Also small amounts of natural-progesterone-cream might be beneficial.

{3} Next, inhibit aromatase. Phytoestrogens and most other phytonutrients (phyto meaning only found in plant-based foods not animal-products or processed-foods) do the trick. Some especially powerful aromtase inhibitors include flaxseeds, green-tea, button-mushrooms (white-salad-mushroom), cabbage, broccoli and kale.

{4} Finally shift the estrogen-metabolism from 16-hydroxyestrogen to 2-hydroxyestrogen, you can accomplish this with an extremely-low-fat-diet, flaxseed-meal, exercise, crucerfourous-vegetables, DIM, garlic (due to its sulfur-compounds), etc.


Feel free to use anything I post on HLT. I believe that Bryan's role at HLT (and many other forums) is to protect estrogen from being blamed for some unknown reason(s).

Thank you very much for all that information misterE

I am definitely considering following your path with regards to tackling MPB, as this stuff is starting to make a fair bit of sense to me, and back on HLT as well you were always the guy I followed posts by the most!

Erm, apologies for the lmgtfy, but it is proven to me now pretty much the connection between prostate size and estrogen http://lmgtfy.com/?q=estrogen+prostate+enlarged

I just wish there was a study relating estrogen levels to MPB. Joke is though, I guess if estrogen correlates strongly to prostate size, and prostate size correlates strongly to MPB, then.....

I need to learn more...

Ah one weird thing is that before I started to suddenly lose hair, I was eating a LOT of dairy, to be honest recently (after kind of deciding to give up on the dietary approach, but now I am reconsidering it again ) I noticed that my like normal, day-to-day diet is pretty dairy-heavy.

I really like milk drinks like milkshake, cheese, mayonnaise (but not anymore as I think I have an egg intolerance), milk chocolate, white chocolate, creamy deserts and even cream-based curries like kormas. There really is a significant dairy-focus in my diet, as well as a fair amount of gluten.

I think the reason why I got a bit put off the dietary approach though is because I did try a 99% vegan, gluten-free, dairy-free, healthy diet for quite a while after discovering MPB and there was no change. I was also on a fair amount of beta-sit and lignans for a fair amount of time, but I just had no real improvement at all. I just don't know how to downregulate or desensitize these receptors

You don't need to be a vegetarian. I'm following a traditional Japanese diet (wild caught fish, sea weed, veggies, rice, sweet potatoes, beans, moderate fruit) and taking probiotics, soy isoflavones, and 500 mg of Pueraria mirifica a day and my hair looks good- temples are filling in but still thin. I was on propecia for 2 1/2 years and while it did thicken up my hair, it did nothing for my temples. Another thing I've noticed is that my hair is becoming finer/smoother and less coarse. I think this probably due to the pueraria mirifica.

Hoppipolla wrote:

I really like milk drinks like milkshake, cheese, mayonnaise (but not anymore as I think I have an egg intolerance), milk chocolate, white chocolate, creamy deserts and even cream-based curries like kormas. There really is a significant dairy-focus in my diet, as well as a fair amount of gluten.

Dairy is a real big problem. In fact I believe that diary causes baldness in those predisposed. Dairy products contain estrogen and DHT precursors, plus the protein in milk lowers IGFBP-3 and SHBG and enlarges the sebaceous-glands (and prostate). Not to mention that dairy products are loaded with artery-clogging fat and cholesterol.

I recommend the McDougall-diet, exercise, fasting and sunshine.

baller234 wrote:I'm following a traditional Japanese diet and taking probiotics, soy isoflavones, and 500 mg of Pueraria mirifica a day and my hair looks good- temples are filling in but still thin.

Do you use any topicals?

baller234 wrote:You don't need to be a vegetarian. I'm following a traditional Japanese diet (wild caught fish, sea weed, veggies, rice, sweet potatoes, beans, moderate fruit) and taking probiotics, soy isoflavones, and 500 mg of Pueraria mirifica a day and my hair looks good- temples are filling in but still thin. I was on propecia for 2 1/2 years and while it did thicken up my hair, it did nothing for my temples. Another thing I've noticed is that my hair is becoming finer/smoother and less coarse. I think this probably due to the pueraria mirifica.

baller234 - How long had you been on this diet before you noticed improvements?

I am also focusing on trad Japanese foods and really enjoying all these new things to try - much better than processed 'English' foods actually! I moved in this direction to ensure that I could get adequate dietary iodine and other easily assimilable minerals. I really did not enjoy taking Lugol's due to nightmares/insomnia. I'm thinking that natural is best and safer to.

Also, for the first time in my life I have maintained dairy free status for about a month now. Not missing it one bit, now that I am finding new foods.

MAO wrote:

Also, for the first time in my life I have maintained dairy free status for about a month now. Not missing it one bit, now that I am finding new foods.

Have you noticed any changes in your body? For me, my beard-growth slowed down, my scalp got less oily and I became leaner. This all began to happen days after I quit consuming dairy-products.

Erm, so how does meat compare? Do you think that chicken and fish are ok in moderate quantities misterE/baller?

And I had a quick Google about dairy.. yeah it does seem a bit bad ._. I didn't realize it was so full of estrogens and stuff...

I'll give dropping it another go I think, particularly as I've dropped egg anyway!

Hoppipolla wrote:Erm, so how does meat compare? Do you think that chicken and fish are ok in moderate quantities misterE/baller?

White-meats like poultry and fish are better than fatty-meats like brisket or sausage... however Hoppi... it is the protein in the poultry and fish which also lowers SHBG, not just the fat, the protein does other negative things also like leeching calcium from the bones. Not to mention that chicken and fish contains just as much cholesterol as red-meat and fish is one of the most polluted foods on the planet! Think of how much pollution there is in the seas!

Chicken and fish contain no fiber or phytonutrients either.

baller234 wrote:Another thing I've noticed is that my hair is becoming finer/smoother and less coarse. I think this probably due to the pueraria mirifica.

I was to scared to try pueraria because i heard one of it's uses is enlarging breasts? So it's obviously safe for males to take then?

May i ask where you get your supply from

Hm that's interesting about the meat and stuff

I do really want to learn how to calm these receptors down internally and naturally. I really think it can be done. I mean, if one day I just woke up and I was losing hair, then fair enough maybe I would believe it was purely genetic, but the fact that it happened at a time when I was having considerable health like.. disturbances such as digestive issues, probably allergies, etc, suggests to me that I in some way contributed to this increased AR sensitivity. And it does seem like it is possible to reverse the sensitizing of the follicles.. it does seem that way... man it's all so tricky ._.

Maybe I will give the diet changes and daily jogging and stuff another go. It's just.. it's a lot of effort and I guess I just worry like, what if I do it and it doesn't work, all that effort and still disappointment, you know? ._.

Well, for now I think I will use fluridil or something as well, and Nizoral and things, just to cover my back!!

I do love to learn though

Oh, as I posted on HLT, here are the Wikipedia articles on ARs and NRs in general:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_receptor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_receptor


I wonder what changes within them that causes them to become more sensitive, or perhaps it is just their numbers.. I really, really don't know ._.

I have decided basically what I'm going to do is follow a combination of Justin's regimen (remember Justin? ^^ ) and your approach misterE

I will give this a really good bash, as the thing is I can't really order things like fluridil at the moment anyway as I am moving in a week, so they would not get here on time.

Also, now I understand more about the problem as a whole, I understand more about why this approach should work.

I'll do the morning jogging, good diet, no dairy, limited meat (and only things like chicken and fish when I do), pomegranate juice, black tea, flax/lignans, much reduced sexual activity (this seems to help inflammation go down I find) and erm, just go on from there!

What should happen is that my inflammation should drop fairly low as it usually does when I do most of this stuff but by jogging in the morning... maaayyyybe, that will kill the burning inflammation that I usually can't beat in the mornings! Also, the combo of supplements and that should give my hormones and helping hand getting back into line and help my health recover..

Thing is, it worked for Justin and his hair loss started similarly to mine, so I'll give it a last bash as it would be SO much better than chucking Eucapil and stuff all over my head!!

Wish me luck IH forum! ^_^

Ok erm, at the moment my focus is on jogging, pomegranate, avocados, trying to reduce stress and tension, general physical activity, cutting dairy and vastly reducing meat, lots of fibre, cruciferous veggies, black tea, flax seeds (and similar), and possibly borage oil (and sometimes coconut?)...

I can see a problem with the last one/two though as they're fatty..

Other than that erm.. what do you think misterE and other folks?

Peace! ^_^

I think coconut oil is good as it supports thyroid function which in turn promotes healthy estrogen metabolism which is crucial for prostate health as well as MPB. Also, Lauric acid, the fatty acid in coconut oil, has been shown to inhibit 5ar as well as 17 beta HSD, much like the lignans in flax.

Wow ur a bright spark baller! hehe

Makes me proud to be a member of IH! ^_^

So, you dont think the soy isoflavones in any way hinder thyroid function? I lose track of what soy components do and dont