detumescence really works.

john ..this how i did any way and it was my first hair treatment , i had gain my first regrowth with it after 10 days ...it was very tiny hair some thing like 1 mm and after 3 month this new hair halt there ..no progress no hair loss ..generally it,s aprove that hair loss is naturally reversable...i really thanks mr hagerty to open my eyes on this fact.

long hair wrote:john ..this how i did any way and it was my first hair treatment , i had gain my first regrowth  with it after 10 days ...it was very tiny hair some thing like 1 mm and after 3 month  this new hair halt there ..no progress no hair loss ..generally it,s aprove that hair loss is naturally reversable...i really thanks mr hagerty to open my eyes on this fact.

How long do you do it each day? I know Tom says there's no amount of time that can actually be harmful but I don't know

Well it is one thing to say that the growth is rapid, better to show it.  This photo about 14 hours later than the last ones posted.  I am just highlighting how fast the hairs can grow once they are revived.


https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/19/35/15/42/20151115.jpg   close up of the same hairs on the temple, not on the hairline, notice how far removed the ear is due to the angle

You said you had no shedding on the enzyme meat tenderizer treatment, but what about your high pressure DT massage?  Do you think the high pressure pressing etc could be damaging to the hair follicle at all?

I just press down quite hard and then rub, then do the kneading, then try to pinch with one hand but that part is still very difficult, my scalp seems to have tightened up after I went easy on it for two days.

I think my shedding is just normal MPB but I'm paranoid so...

No shedding or hair loss due to the strong pressure massage.

I was saying that even with the other extreme treatments like meat tenderizer,  I still had no hair loss or shed. These are  like power tools, the sander and the steam roller.  Make it or break it,  I do not have months to see small results.  Lucky for me it is working out with a result that reminds me of needling with minox. With this treatment I can continue with it for life. Minox I hated and am glad I quit it.
The pictures are showing the area that specifically follows the blood vessels. Move the blood properly and it seems that the hair will regrow. Also I do not get much sticky excretion any more. Seems like that gunk had to go first, it has to be firmly pressed out.

cdto2012 wrote:I was saying that even with the other extreme treatments like meat tenderizer,  I still had no hair loss or shed. These are  like power tools, the sander and the steam roller.  Make it or break it,  I do not have months to see small results.  Lucky for me it is working out with a result that reminds me of needling with minox. With this treatment I can continue with it for life. Minox I hated and am glad I quit it.
 The pictures are showing the area that specifically follows the blood vessels. Move the blood properly and it seems that the hair will regrow.  Also I do not get much sticky excretion any more.  Seems like that gunk had to go first, it has to be firmly pressed out.

Great, thanks again.

It seems that people always say "Be very gentle with your scalp", but that seems to just contribute to hairloss by not exfoliating/stimulating/remove dead skin

So can I ask what you think of my technique I mentioned?

What I'm worried about now is making my scalp TOO loose and causing forehead wrinkles, is that a silly thing to worry about?  

I also hated Minoxidil! It made my scalp so crusty and flaky wherever I applied it!

johndoe1225 wrote:
Also I was wondering, perhaps DT therapy combined with Tom Hagerty's or the extreme version of Tom Hagerty's exercises would be an even more powerful way to go?  My only concern is that with Tom's exercises, the scalp is pulled really tight over the skull, if this balances with the increased blood flow to the galea because of the muscle contractions I don't know.  Also the amount of time one should spend on the exercises total, and the amount of time one should contract the frontalis as opposed to the occipital muscle.

I'm really conflicted between relaxing my whole face/scalp/head all the time and doing Tom's exercises.  I reduced my time to around 5-10 minutes a day of Tom's exercises, but would definitely do more if it did some good.  I used to do it for much longer, but that was before DT when my scalp was tight.

 I think this was your updated technique.  The Hagerty exercises combined with DT sound fine together. I do not think muscle toning or massage normally cause wrinkles.  I think wrinkles are caused by a reduction in skin quality,  blood supply, facial stress creases, and nutritional problems.
This article was interesting about wrinkles because it lists some treatments like dermabrasion (scraping and mild scarring) micro dermabrasion ( sand blasting/ micro scarring) and chemical peels ( like enzyme/ meat tenderizer peals)

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/174852.php

  My best advice is to face your fears and live life while you are young.  We live in a time when hair transplants cost around $5000 for 5000 grafts, and you can always do body hair grafts until your hair is how you want it to look. I live in Thailand and plastic surgery is so very common for average and young people.  Beauty is important, and you can buy it now.  As for wrinkles,  if you get a transplant, they take a decent part of your scalp out, I think it tightens the forehead and some other wrinkles when they sew it back together. I have had a transplant ,  it did not hurt, and the hairs grew back quickly.
    Spend your time being creative about making money,  move to a great country like Thailand where age and looks do not matter so much for guys. Date absolutely beautiful women until you are too old to see straight. I have lost far more hair than you have, and I promise you from experience, you can still get amazing young women for free if you are confident and happy.

Well just to prove how far gone my hair is,  I guess it is time to post pics of the top where the grafts are and the front for starter photos.  This is the area that was most effected by the meat tenderizer treatment, with a layer of dead skin that peled off.
    Actually I have been avoiding this area because it is hard to tell what is new growth.  The area has always stayed a bit fuzzy beneath the grafts.  I guess because of the insertion puncture wounds kept this area a bit healthier.
    Now (somewhere around 19 days into treatment) the growth and new terminal  hairs are showing up more clearly. The first front top picture with not too much new growth is an example of what basic starter fuzz looked like. Obviously the grafts are the thick black or gray hair. The grafts feel thicker and stiffer than ever, and grow very quickly. I am not exactly sure, but the grafts are around 15 years old. They sure do not look like they are weakening or thinning. There was only 500 grafts so the spacing is original.
 The other shorter hairs are new thickening growth that were basic fuzz before.

front top
https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/19/35/15/42/20151118.jpg

top hairline  
https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/19/35/15/42/20151116.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/19/35/15/42/20151117.jpg

johndoe1225 wrote:

How long do you do it each day?  I know Tom says there's no amount of time that can actually be harmful but I don't know

10 min as i remeber ...also you are wright about the sides .. i test them yesterday and i found it eazy to move one ear back relase it and go to the other one move and relase it and repeat...

I am so convinced about the use of enzyme therapy to cleanse the scalp of dead and weak cells . The link is about papain enzyme and how it does target only dead and weak cells and skin. It barely effects healthy cells as I personally observed. Page 441 is the main page, but this seems to be be an encyclopedia on skin care.

https://books.google.com/books?id=eqkYpqkYPngC&pg=PA441&lpg=PA441&dq=does+papain+dissolve+oil+?&source=bl&ots=L1x7RYYTtN&sig=UvYXL3Yc7BOWYgWq86poDYJindg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBGoVChMIuvK-tPr4yAIVQj8aCh2o1g15#v=onepage&q=does%20papain%20dissolve%20oil%20%3F&f=false

Hmmm, I wonder if the pressing part of DT is more important than people think?  Maybe a seperate session of simply pressing down without even moving the scalp apart from your daily standard DT sessions might be a good addition

EDIT:  The hair on my widows peak on the left side (I guess you could call that my temple) is still thinning as usual, and I've noticed that the scalp there has tightened back up, maybe I need to ramp up my DT rather than ease off. I thought my scalp was really loose, but that was only with two hands when apparently I was pinching more scalp than I thought. When I try to pinch with the claw technique of one hand, it's either quite difficult or doesn't work.

Hi,  I have been noticing the thickness of my grafts, when I rub them they feel spiky and stiff, thicker than I can remember them.  Today I wanted to get close up photos to see how the new hairs were growing. They look really good to me. Remember these shots are in the bald area; inches away forward from my natural receding hairline. The thick hairs you see are the grafts, an the new hairs are the light hairs clearly growing in. I guess they would be more graphically impressive if these were the only hairs regrowing in middle of a long since bald scalp, but the grafts are good for measuring distances for later photos.
I can actually see in the photo that there are still skin caps that need to be removed, left over from the second enzyme treatment that I did. A cheap android camera really does a lot to get treatment figured out.
   About 2 days ago I dry shaved the side temple growth to see if it would grow back even thicker. Yes so far the stubble looks quite thick diameter, but it sets back the length measurements for that area.
https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/19/35/15/42/20151119.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/19/35/15/42/20151120.jpg

and how do you know those are not miniturizing hairs. miniturized hairs grow from nothing, grow to a endpoint (smaller than the endpoint of last cycle , and then fall out. the next hair that grows there grows to a smaller endpoint.)


the biggest problem is all the people who say something is working dont come back after they figure out its not working, leaving everyone else thinking that it worked and theyre living their lives. wheres all the people from earlier in this thread gone ? too proud to come back and listen to a thousand 'told u so's'? just admit it doesnt work so people can stop wasting their time.

rofl wrote:and how do you know those are not miniturizing hairs.  miniturized hairs grow from nothing, grow to a endpoint (smaller than the endpoint of last cycle , and then fall out.  the next hair that grows there grows to a smaller endpoint.)

Yes I would like to see solid picture documentation also. I do think the therapy has value as a scalp cleanse if not more.
Well if I can cause miniaturizing hairs to "grow from nothing" then I will take them over nothing growing at all, for now. I have done enough hard pressure, meat tenderizer, and other shock treatments to shock out weak hairs. If you look back on previous pictures I posted of the side temples growth, I just dry shaved them and now a few days later they are popping out even thicker.
So yes anything is possible. I did see this with needling with minox, the first rapid growth did not follow through, but did not fallout either during treatment. So only time will tell. I do think my approach of 2 handed plastic vitamin bottle hard pressure has not been tried before; in combination with the meat tenderizer.
Here is where I first got the intro to the therapy, hard to be sure about his photos, but he says he had success.
http://jdmoyer.com/2015/04/13/hair/
http://jdmoyer.com/2015/08/03/hair-regrowth-update-and-faq/

what a surprise, another person linking to a ebook website.  

cdto2012 wrote:

rofl wrote:and how do you know those are not miniturizing hairs.  miniturized hairs grow from nothing, grow to a endpoint (smaller than the endpoint of last cycle , and then fall out.  the next hair that grows there grows to a smaller endpoint.)

  Yes I would like to see solid picture documentation also. I do think the therapy has value as a scalp cleanse if not more.
   Well if I can cause miniaturizing hairs to "grow from nothing" then I will take them over nothing growing at all, for now.   I have done enough hard pressure, meat tenderizer,  and other shock treatments to shock out weak hairs.  If you look back on previous pictures I posted of the side temples growth,  I just dry shaved them and now a few days later they are popping out even thicker.
  So yes anything is possible. I did see this with needling with minox, the first rapid growth did not follow through, but did not fallout either during treatment.  So only time will tell. I do think my approach of 2 handed plastic vitamin bottle hard pressure has not been tried before; in combination with the meat tenderizer.
 Here is where I first got the intro to the therapy,  hard to be sure about his photos, but he says he had success.
http://jdmoyer.com/2015/04/13/hair/
http://jdmoyer.com/2015/08/03/hair-regrowth-update-and-faq/

About the pressure, I also sometimes vary my DT technique by using my knuckles and applying a lot of pressure then rubbing to give my fingers a rest, and it seems to give more force too

cdto2012 ..are you sure they came back after shaving ??
i have alot of thos tiny short hair at the sides.some black some are colorless..it toke me months to grow them ,the idea about shave to grow them thiker is a scary ...also it been a years for last time i cut my top hair beacuse every hair strand is count .

rofl wrote:what a surprise, another person linking to a ebook website.  

Actually it says at the end of that article that the ebook is not available and nothing is being sold , and the same is repeated on the actual site.
"Update Sep. 2015: Rob has recently taken his eBook offline because the amount of time he was responding to email became unmanageable "
Just people freely sharing what their successes have been.

   As for shaving, that is common knowledge that shaving does indeed make hairs grow back thicker,  but is not a long term treatment.  If your hairs are just thin vellus hairs, they might take a really long time to grow back.  Weak thin hairs might also grow really slowly. I am sure the new hairs on my temples are growing back with speed, diameter, and as hairs that I expect to grow long and strong. I can see them already after 2 days and I will post pictures in a few days.
  If you wonder about shaving, needling, or dermarolling puncturing,  there are plenty of successful discussions about it. Being pussyfoot gentle with your scalp is the slow boat to dubious results.
I added in a picture of the shaved regrowth after 2 1/2 days  since shaved, notice no fuzz,  just the strongest hairs are starting back, there are plenty in other areas also, spread out over the original hair area. Its all shiny because it has fresh tea tree oil, and it's just an old ugly scalp too...
https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/19/35/15/42/20151121.jpg

cdto2012 wrote:Being pussyfoot gentle with your scalp is the slow boat to dubious results.

Exactly

Dead skin/sebum/grease can really get lodged in there and being gentle just isn't going to work

Even after all my intense massaging, I STILL get dandruff/dead skin on my temple's/widows peak if I try hard enough!

EDIT:  So do you think the very hard downward pressure is the most important part of DT?  My scalp is pretty loose now so maybe I'll just focus on pressing since loosening would kind of seem pointless right now.  I'll just take my fingers and plant them, press down really hard without moving them, then release and do it in another area.

Also, not to sound like a broken record, but can you see any downsides to using a lot of downward force?  Should I be pressing down really hard then rubbing?

I used to carry really heavy backpacks, and I have a bunch of hair on my shoulders that seems to follow the strap lines perfectly

Hi,   yes from what I am seeing the pressure is needed due to the thickness  of the scalp. It seems to me that the ability to move blood through the scalp almost takes a CPR heart pumping strength on the skin. I really think that the reason the dermarolling and other surface treatments have limited results is because they only stimulate the regeneration on the very outer layers.  The deeper layers need to be pressed to restart circulation, break up calcium crystallization, and break up the tough fibrosis ( keratin and collagen ).
  I really recommend  using the hand sized plastic vitamin bottle bottom rounded edges.  Use it even for a soft massage to start.  The pressure effect is much more like using your knuckles .  You need that kind of penetration to get the lower fibrosis. At first your skin should feel a little sore for half hour after. Later after the first week the lasting soreness should go away.  
  The procedure is to press then make circles,  rubbing the skin against the scalp (not rubbing the skin). If the tissue is sore from the start, that is an important area to work with. Now after a few weeks I added the use of 2 hands in a scan pattern over the top of my head. This is a deep press for 5 seconds, move on. This is not sore now, and I never press hard enough to leave purple bruising.  You can use the long part of the bottle for the forehead.
  As for downside risk,  massage is not a new process.  Deep tissue massage is not new either. Just do not push to the point of visible bruising,  my skin barely gets red.  The important thing is to a see the blood vessels dilate and bulge every time.
 I will try to edit in a new picture of the shaved regrowth on my forehead. It is thicker than the temples. It is just amazing to me that the regrowth is mostly even all across my original hairline,  not just near the receding hairline.
  As for the meat tenderizer,  try a sample of the paste (honey and powder) on your arm for a few hours. It should have no effect.  I am sure it is the key to removing a lot of dead skin at a deep level.   I will continue using it about once a week for 2-3 hours. Tea tree oil seems essential also.  Every day I apply a mix of olive oil,  seaweed,  ginger, vinegar, cinnamon, and green tea for an hour.

Views are from direct front , on the opposite side of most previous photos,  Note that this area is only about an inch from my top grafts far from the ears. this is a much higher central forehead area.  The angle does not show much back ground regular hair or any ears.  The idea was to try to convey that this kind of growing happened in 3 days after the shave, pretty much across the original hair growth area. If the light is not directed properly it hides hair in the surrounding areas. This is the grow rate of my new hairs, not fuzz.
https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/19/35/15/42/20151123.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/19/35/15/42/20151124.jpg

cdto2012 wrote:Hi,   yes from what I am seeing the pressure is needed due to the thickness  of the scalp. It seems to me that the ability to move blood through the scalp almost takes a CPR heart pumping strength on the skin. I really think that the reason the dermarolling and other surface treatments have limited results is because they only stimulate the regeneration on the very outer layers.  The deeper layers need to be pressed to restart circulation, break up calcium crystallization, and break up the tough fibrosis ( keratin and collagen ).
  I really recommend  using the hand sized plastic vitamin bottle bottom rounded edges.  Use it even for a soft massage to start.  The pressure effect is much more like using your knuckles .  You need that kind of penetration to get the lower fibrosis. At first your skin should feel a little sore for half hour after. Later after the first week the lasting soreness should go away.  
  The procedure is to press then make circles,  rubbing the skin against the scalp (not rubbing the skin). If the tissue is sore from the start, that is an important area to work with. Now after a few weeks I added the use of 2 hands in a scan pattern over the top of my head. This is a deep press for 5 seconds, move on. This is not sore now, and I never press hard enough to leave purple bruising.  You can use the long part of the bottle for the forehead.
  As for downside risk,  massage is not a new process.  Deep tissue massage is not new either. Just do not push to the point of visible bruising,  my skin barely gets red.  The important thing is to a see the blood vessels dilate and bulge every time.
 I will try to edit in a new picture of the shaved regrowth on my forehead. It is thicker than the temples. It is just amazing to me that the regrowth is mostly even all across my original hairline,  not just near the receding hairline.
  As for the meat tenderizer,  try a sample of the paste (honey and powder) on your arm for a few hours. It should have no effect.  I am sure it is the key to removing a lot of dead skin at a deep level.   I will continue using it about once a week for 2-3 hours. Tea tree oil seems essential also.  Every day I apply a mix of olive oil,  seaweed,  ginger, vinegar, cinnamon, and green tea for an hour.

Views are from direct front , on the opposite side of previous photos,  Note that this area is only about an inch from my top grafts far from the ears. this is a much higher central forehead area.  The angle does not show much back ground regular hair or any ears.  The idea was to try to convey that this kind of growing happened in 3 days after the shave, pretty much across the original hair growth area. This is the grow rate of my new hairs, not fuzz.
https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/19/35/15/42/20151123.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/19/35/15/42/20151124.jpg

Excellent description, thanks!

But I think I'll stick to my knuckles, for me personally it's a better choice since I have long hair (although technically I could use the bottle method in a few of my problem areas)

cdto2012 wrote:

Being pussyfoot gentle with your scalp is the slow boat to dubious results.

what you mean by that ...i do DT hard untill my scalp feel injured internaly ,now no more oil can squeezed out . my hair at the up front side grow slowly they are 1~7mm now ..more i go to the center of my scalp more they go long,, it seems what fall last is what grow first but i don't dare to cut them .they are my hope to a good quality life.

cdto2012 wrote:Hi,   yes from what I am seeing the pressure is needed due to the thickness  of the scalp. It seems to me that the ability to move blood through the scalp almost takes a CPR heart pumping strength on the skin. I really think that the reason the dermarolling and other surface treatments have limited results is because they only stimulate the regeneration on the very outer layers.  The deeper layers need to be pressed to restart circulation, break up calcium crystallization, and break up the tough fibrosis ( keratin and collagen ).

you forget to mintion scalp over heat .... even if you do DT hard for a miniute or so you can put your hand and feel your scalp is going hot , and when you stop temp go down gradually to normal. thats really mean  the blood rush to that area.it is a same effect of peperment oil .

'As for shaving, that is common knowledge that shaving does indeed make hairs grow back thicker'



lol, thats one of the oldest myths out there. if u believe that, youll believe anything.

hair DOES NOT grow back thicker when u cut or shave it. it just looks thicker, because a strand of hair is thicker at the base, so when u cut it at the base you're cutting it at a thicker point than further along, hence looks thicker. sorry to burst your bubble.