detumescence really works.

A recommendation as somebody that has done massage therapy for many years and also was the original starter of some of the "needling " techniques years ago.   Of course the best idea is to follow the instructions of the people that are recording success with their techniques.
 My first suggestion is for those that find it tiring to do hand massage. I have resorted to using the round edges of a plastic bottle to apply pressure.  I use a vitamin plastic bottle, and the bottom edges are rounded, guess you could use any  other bottle that is hard enough to not bend much. I apply the desired firm pressure then move the skin in circles (not rub/slide on  the skin in circles).   With the bottle it is much easier on the hands to get the strong pressure to reform the skin and press out unwanted oils etc. I think that the mild grinding circles on the scalp quickly break up the fibrosis.I think later pinching the skin with the fingers is still necessary. Finally I recommend some open palm circles for encouraging blood flow.
  The reason that I got interested in this method is because the soreness of the skin reminded me of the same feeling with needling.  It was the bruising, blood flow healing response, breaking up of the hardness of the skin, and repair cycle that got my first needling unexpected growth. For DT, I use the bottle until the target areas are sore, then do not repeat until they are not sore. For me this recovery time can be as fast as 12 hours.
  I gave up on needling after a few months after the initial results slowed down, I just decided to get another hair transplant. I am still waiting to do that transplant. For DT I will use it to soften and prepare my donor and graft area. As a note I had micro grafts about 16 years ago and they are still in full growth, as the original hairs have receded. If the results are amazingly quick with DT, I will report back.

cdto2012 wrote:A recommendation as somebody that has done massage therapy for many years and also was the original starter of some of the "needling " techniques years ago.   Of course the best idea is to follow the instructions of the people that are recording success with their techniques.
 My first suggestion is for those that find it tiring to do hand massage. I have resorted to using the round edges of a plastic bottle to apply pressure.  I use a vitamin plastic bottle, and the bottom edges are rounded, guess you could use any  other bottle that is hard enough to not bend much. I apply the desired firm pressure then move the skin in circles (not rub/slide on  the skin in circles).   With the bottle it is much easier on the hands to get the strong pressure to reform the skin and press out unwanted oils etc. I think that the mild grinding circles on the scalp quickly break up the fibrosis.I think later pinching the skin with the fingers is still necessary. Finally I recommend some open palm circles for encouraging blood flow.
  The reason that I got interested in this method is because the soreness of the skin reminded me of the same feeling with needling.  It was the bruising, blood flow healing response, breaking up of the hardness of the skin, and repair cycle that got my first needling unexpected growth. For DT, I use the bottle until the target areas are sore, then do not repeat until they are not sore. For me this recovery time can be as fast as 12 hours.
  I gave up on needling after a few months after the initial results slowed down, I just decided to get another hair transplant. I am still waiting to do that transplant. For DT I will use it to soften and prepare my donor and graft area. As a note I had micro grafts about 16 years ago and they are still in full growth, as the original hairs have receded. If the results are amazingly quick with DT, I will report back.

Well there seem to be different methods of success, for example drex's "scalp finger painting" method and keano's "full compress-full stretch" method.

DT gave me strong hands, so what do you think about me continuing to use keano's method?  It's very simple, just place both hands opposite each other, bring them towards each other and pinch some skin between them, then pull them apart from each other to stretch the skin.

Whatever is going on my scalp (especially my widow's peak) is much looser, and much, much healthier.

Also I'm still confused my "pinching" with one hand. Are you supposed to use your nails for grip? If I don't use my nails on top my fingers will slide. I can do two handed pinches just fine though.

Hey everyone.

So Im at a bit of a loss right now.

Initially, I gave DT a shot for 4-5 months using bian stones, in order to make it easier on my hands and to avoid, what I thought might be a little numbness in my finger tip from getting worse (not sure if that was my natural anatomy or not, couldve been that I was hyper focused on it).

Anyways, due to the very acute angle I had to use with the stones, I started to get some very sharp shooting pains in my wrist about 2-3 months in. I ignored this, thinking it was just my hands adjusting to all the new activity. Well it didn't go away, and the stones eventually seemed to be to much for my scalp as well, so I dropped it. That was around 5 months ago.

Now 5 months later, the pain is a lot a lot less, but still there at certain times. I went to the hand doc, got an emg, and it came back positive for very mild carpal tunnel in my right hand. I couldve had carpal tunnel before this, and the pain could be more of a tendonitis/hand strain symptom, Im just not sure. I dont really have any typical carpal tunnel symptoms, except for recently I developed some right hand weakness ( I believe was offset by a session in the gym). The doc says he thinks it could be either CT or some kind of hand strain.

Anyways, the bottom line is I feel DT could work for me. I just havent been able to give it a legitimate shot with how it was intended to be done: with one's hands. I really want to give it an actual run, it's kind of my last actual hope and Im pissed I have this carpal tunnel is getting in my way. Ive also tried with hand splints, but they create an angle which seems to just make things worse. Ive also been taking p5p (active form of b6, which is helping quell my symptoms a bit).

Anyways, my questions for everyone are:

1) Has anyone had CT and been able to heal it fully?

2) I wonder, would DT definitely make my CT worse? Could I heal a long side doing it? Because it was doing it with the stones that brought on the pain, not with my hands. When I was doing it with my hands for 2 weeks initially, I experienced no pain, just a bit of soreness..

I really just want to dive into DT again, but I don't want to damage my nerve and be left permanently disabled... I guess I could start again and see how it goes, but this recent hand weakness has me a bit frightened..

Welcoming all suggestions! Much thanks!

this is a contradiction because idont buy that DT works.

but you could use a strap (like slowmoe sold to half the forum, but could easily be bought elsewhere lol) to hold the scalp loose, and then do you special massages on the loose scalp, thereby alleviating the tension on your hands.

Dt doesn't work, its been 3 years now since dt was first introduce. What happen to all the people that first started Dt when it first came out? All we have is bunch of new comers that have no clue what they're talking about, thinking miniaturized hair hairs are new regrowth. Sorry for being to blunt, but its the dam truth.

Sizzingling you need to take one of those supplement, it will help with your ct or w/e it is. I had the same issue when I first started Dt, but I kept at it and took the supplement and it went away after that. Osteo Bi-Flex Triple Strength with MSM and 5-loxi is what you want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaUJpV5YqdU

I respect that you guys dont think DT works.

I am one that thinks it can work for some and I just want to be able to give it a shot myself...

I just want to be able to ***at least try*** for 5-6 months, but it would be good to know if this would be possible with my mild carpal tunnel. I just feel angry I cant at least try..

Part of me just wants to say f*ck it, lemme give it a shot, but then part of me is like I dont want to do any damage to my median nerve..

Bogv, in relation to your supplement suggestion (thanks btw) did you have **sharp shooting pain** in the middle of your wrists? This is specifically what I had, also a long with what now seems to be hand weakness.. Uhg, I wish I knew whether it was a wrist/tendon strain or actually due to CT. Guess I gotta go back to my hand doc..

sizzlinghairs wrote:I respect that you guys dont think DT works.

I am one that thinks it can work for some and I just want to be able to give it a shot myself...

I just want to be able to ***at least try*** for 5-6 months, but it would be good to know if this would be possible with my mild carpal tunnel. I just feel angry I cant at least try..

Part of me just wants to say f*ck it, lemme give it a shot, but then part of me is like I dont want to do any damage to my median nerve..

Bogv, in relation to your supplement suggestion (thanks btw) did you have **sharp shooting pain** in the middle of your wrists? This is specifically what I had, also a long with what now seems to be hand weakness.. Uhg, I wish I knew whether it was a wrist/tendon strain or actually due to CT. Guess I gotta go back to my hand doc..

Yup, pretty much what I have, I couldn't even pick up a book or turn my wrist 90 degree angle, that's how bad it was. Its prolly not ct but De Quervain's Tendinosis(wrist). Do a Finkelstein's Test to see if you have De Quervain. Here you go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGeq8fcC6J4

I am no doctor of anatomy, but I have fully recovered from a severe knee injury and worked massage on plenty of people with carpal tunnel. I think it is normal to be applying ice to reduce inflammation.
  To recover from my knee injury 100% I simply used it as little as possible for a year. No stretching the joint as recommended.  I would not risk further CT or body damage to try to do your own head massage. I would go for standing on your head pressure, or a stationary hard rubber fixture to move the skin with.
  As for pinching, I think the point of it is to make the skin flexible again.  Just work toward this goal by flexing and bending the skin .  The prohibited process is to be rubbing the fingers against the skin and hair follicles firmly. For me it is surprising how after a few hours the bruised feeling goes away and I can do another strong massage. I have plenty of time, so am able to do about 90 minutes of massage in 24 hours . Due to having healthy grafts, I will report back if they are negatively effected, testing the theory about massage being bad for healthy hair .  This is in contrast to DT being beneficial to growth and part of slowly regrowing lasting hair, and a shed of weak hairs being the starting phase of recovery.  My bet from being around a culture that gets massaged often here in Asia,  there is no link to consistent massage and loss of body hair. I will be massaging harder and more often than most, and will let you know. So far (all 3 days) my scalp feels better and is cleansing out a thick oil.
   I should mention , I wanted to clean off this oil. I chose a natural honey and finely powdered activated charcoal scrub to use. Never use charcoal with needles of open wounds, it will tattoo. It worked well and has other benefits. I am massaging and treating my face at the same time.
  I am also on a fruit juice cleanse , only juices for 13 days now.  Trying first to fully clean out my intestines , this takes 10 days alone. Then be more aware of any possible allergies, such as dairy or wheat. I did discover an allergy to cheese. I can eat it for 20 days and feel fine. Then the mucic acid builds up and gives me cold like symptoms. So no more cheese for the last few months and I do not get sick.
 Also on this juice cleanse. It is a targeted lymph cleanse. This includes OJ, red grape juice , and lemon juice. This kind of high vitamin C (ascorbic acid) and citric acid reminds me of my friends very effective chelation therapy. Chelation is a combo of amino Acids and high daily vitamin C to rip/ dissolve calcium deposits out of arteries and better the heart condition.  The idea of decalcifying the scalp seemed to go well with such a cleanse that I am doing already.
 I am a generally very fit healthy person. These cleanses are not just for the sick. Fasting super boosts (1200+%) the HGH (human growth hormone)  after 18 hours of fasting. The study included in post link  Amend links, I am too new to post them properly
XXw.anabolicmen.com/increase-hgh-in-24-hours/
XXw.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC329619/?page=1

cdto2012 wrote:I am no doctor of anatomy, but I have fully recovered from a severe knee injury and worked massage on plenty of people with carpal tunnel. I think it is normal to be applying ice to reduce inflammation.
  To recover from my knee injury 100% I simply used it as little as possible for a year. No stretching the joint as recommended.  I would not risk further CT or body damage to try to do your own head massage. I would go for standing on your head pressure, or a stationary hard rubber fixture to move the skin with.
  As for pinching, I think the point of it is to make the skin flexible again.  Just work toward this goal by flexing and bending the skin .  The prohibited process is to be rubbing the fingers against the skin and hair follicles firmly. For me it is surprising how after a few hours the bruised feeling goes away and I can do another strong massage. I have plenty of time, so am able to do about 90 minutes of massage in 24 hours . Due to having healthy grafts, I will report back if they are negatively effected, testing the theory about massage being bad for healthy hair .  This is in contrast to DT being beneficial to growth and part of slowly regrowing lasting hair, and a shed of weak hairs being the starting phase of recovery.  My bet from being around a culture that gets massaged often here in Asia,  there is no link to consistent massage and loss of body hair. I will be massaging harder and more often than most, and will let you know. So far (all 3 days) my scalp feels better and is cleansing out a thick oil.
   I should mention , I wanted to clean off this oil. I chose a natural honey and finely powdered activated charcoal scrub to use. Never use charcoal with needles of open wounds, it will tattoo.   It worked well and has other benefits. I am massaging and treating my face at the same time.
  I am also on a fruit juice cleanse , only juices for 13 days now.  Trying first to fully clean out my intestines , this takes 10 days alone. Then be more aware of any possible allergies, such as dairy or wheat. I did discover an allergy to cheese. I can eat it for 20 days and feel fine. Then the mucic acid builds up and gives me cold like symptoms. So no more cheese for the last few months and I do not get sick.
 Also on this juice cleanse. It is a targeted lymph cleanse. This includes OJ, red grape juice , and lemon juice. This kind of high vitamin C (ascorbic acid) and citric acid reminds me of my friends very effective chelation therapy. Chelation is a combo of amino Acids and high daily vitamin C to rip/ dissolve calcium deposits out of arteries and better the heart condition.  The idea of decalcifying the scalp seemed to go well with such a cleanse that I am doing already.
 I am a generally very fit healthy person. These cleanses are not just for the sick. Fasting super boosts (1200+%) the HGH (human growth hormone)  after 18 hours of fasting. The study included in post link  Amend links, I am too new to post them properly
XXw.anabolicmen.com/increase-hgh-in-24-hours/
XXw.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC329619/?page=1

Hey cdto, that's interesting, I've always wanted to try fasting but never did, I think I'll give it a try

Can I ask about your DT routine, how hard do you press?  I do a quite hard kneading motion, pressing down and then bringing my fingers together.  I also do a lot of simple laxity moves like palming my scalp with 1 hand like a basketball. Not only has my scalp become much, much more loose and elastic, but there was a nasty rock hard bulge on my widow's peak which is now almost completely normal like the rest of my skin.

I press with the plastic a bit harder than my fingers would be strong enough to deliver. Not to a point of pain, but revisit until I feel a distinct soreness with casual pressing in every area being treated. I am intensifying the historical massage time and pressure to observe the results. I can tell right away that it cleanses the skin, I had a few bumps that cleared up the second day of massage. Something like the way sweating and sauna really clears up the skin.
  For the fasting,  this time I included prune juice, along with the orange and grape. The idea was to give the intestines the minimum 10 days needed  to evacuate all old foods. I also use senna tea to force the evacuation at times. This is obviously a time for the liver to regenerate, hormones to balance, etc.  
  I am not sure I get the HGH benefit with the juice diet, but it sustains me enough days to get the full colon empty.  I am entering finished day 13 now and will continue until my eyes are white and my tongue is proper pink (not white).

cdto2012 wrote:I press with the plastic a bit harder than my fingers would be strong enough to deliver. Not to a point of pain, but revisit until I feel a distinct soreness with casual pressing in every area being treated. I am intensifying the historical massage time and pressure to observe the results. I can tell right away that it cleanses the skin, I had a few bumps that cleared up the second day of massage. Something like the way sweating and sauna really clears up the skin.
  For the fasting,  this time I included prune juice, along with the orange and grape. The idea was to give the intestines the minimum 10 days needed  to evacuate all old foods. I also use senna tea to force the evacuation at times. This is obviously a time for the liver to regenerate, hormones to balance, etc.  
  I am not sure I get the HGH benefit with the juice diet, but it sustains me enough days to get the full colon empty.  I am entering finished day 13 now and will continue until my eyes are white and my tongue is proper pink (not white).

Ok, thanks a lot, I'm always worried I'm pressing too hard but I've drastically increased the health and elasticity of my scalp so I'm not too worried.  The thing that annoys me is that my scalp never really hurts after DT, it usually just feels...Super relaxed and floaty, which I guess is better  

As for the fruit juice cleanse, wouldn't the massive amounts of sugar be an issue?

I would have thought that so much sugar and acid would make me sick and weak.  I have in the last 30 years never eaten more than 3 oranges in a day without feeling that it was too much. During this cleanse I drink about 2.5 liters of juice a day, and to my amazement it is perfectly balanced feeling. No severe sugar highs and lows, no stomach irritation, and my body does not feel like it has been eating acid only for 2 weeks.
Here is the video that I watched   fix URL   XXw.youtube.com/watch?v=yvGtDnv0DXk  .  I helped open a successful mixed vegetable fruit juice fasting company here 3 years ago. I have done massive research into the anti aging and and especially green juice benefits.   Here is another interesting   video by a doctor  about hormones and lymph detox with fruit .   fix link      XXw.youtube.com/watch?v=MF8JAcUz_V8
 Of note..  I can do push ups on my fingertips.  I really recommend using a plastic vitamin bottle that is the size that you cannot close your thumbs and finger around. It prevents you from finger damage by stressing the fingers to get higher pressing motion. Also it opens up a range of pressure that could be useful for altering the skin. I do not see red marks left,  but the veins to my scalp are expanded for 30 minutes after. The sides of the bottle make for a nice rolling action after I use the bottom for the higher pressure.
I theorize that it is possible that I might be on the verge of micro bruising some capillaries like derma rolling does. Remember I needled for many months with real success (then I was not sure if it was the minox helping, so I quit) . I know the effective bruised feeling of both treatments are very similar.  I can demonstrate with normal massage that extreme pressure is not normally detrimental. If I stand on a persons buttocks they are unlikely to visibly  bruise, even if I balance on one foot.  Our feet every day handle our body weight. Every guy sitting on his hairy bottom for 8 hours a day seldomly complains about his tail going bald from bigh pressure and rubbing of the skin. If there was a way to remove body hair with rubbing or massage it would be a very popular alternative to waxing.

cdto2012 wrote:I would have thought that so much sugar and acid would make me sick and weak.  I have in the last 30 years never eaten more than 3 oranges in a day without feeling that it was too much. During this cleanse I drink about 2.5 liters of juice a day, and to my amazement it is perfectly balanced feeling. No severe sugar highs and lows, no stomach irritation, and my body does not feel like it has been eating acid only for 2 weeks.
Here is the video that I watched   fix URL   XXw.youtube.com/watch?v=yvGtDnv0DXk  .  I helped open a successful mixed vegetable fruit juice fasting company here 3 years ago. I have done massive research into the anti aging and and especially green juice benefits.   Here is another interesting   video by a doctor  about hormones and lymph detox with fruit .   fix link      XXw.youtube.com/watch?v=MF8JAcUz_V8
 Of note..  I can do push ups on my fingertips.  I really recommend using a plastic vitamin bottle that is the size that you cannot close your thumbs and finger around. It prevents you from finger damage by stressing the fingers to get higher pressing motion. Also it opens up a range of pressure that could be useful for altering the skin. I do not see red marks left,  but the veins to my scalp are expanded for 30 minutes after. The sides of the bottle make for a nice rolling action after I use the bottom for the higher pressure.
I theorize that it is possible that I might be on the verge of micro bruising some capillaries like derma rolling does. Remember I needled for many months with real success (then I was not sure if it was the minox helping, so I quit) . I know the effective bruised feeling of both treatments are very similar.  I can demonstrate with normal massage that extreme pressure is not normally detrimental. If I stand on a persons buttocks they are unlikely to visibly  bruise, even if I balance on one foot.  Our feet every day handle our body weight. Every guy sitting on his hairy bottom for 8 hours a day seldomly complains about his tail going bald from bigh pressure and rubbing of the skin.  If there was a way to remove body hair with rubbing or  massage it would be a very popular alternative to waxing.

Hey cdto

That's interesting what you say about preventing finger damage, I get numbness from using so much pressure sometimes

I'm still shedding though, do you think I should ease up on the pressure? Still in the beginning stage of DT though, about 3 months or so.

I can demonstrate with normal massage that extreme pressure is not normally detrimental. If I stand on a persons buttocks they are unlikely to visibly bruise, even if I balance on one foot. Our feet every day handle our body weight. Every guy sitting on his hairy bottom for 8 hours a day seldomly complains about his tail going bald from bigh pressure and rubbing of the skin. If there was a way to remove body hair with rubbing or massage it would be a very popular alternative to waxing.

Chief difference being, the buttocks have lots of fat to cushion the skin / capillaries from mechanical overload. The scalp OTOH has very little adipose tissue, so the skin cells are easily pressurized against the hard skull. Pressure ulcers form on boney prominences for this very reason.

As Johndoe said, he has been shedding rapidly since applying so much pressure to his scalp for the past three months.

I guess it is the faith factor in most of the long term treatments. Determining if things like shedding are progress, or evidence of irritation or general degradation . Add to this the "normal " hair loss progression that would have continued with no treatment. Then trying to factor everything against microns of plus or minus peach fuzz. To continue on in the face of uncertainty and mixed results is up to each individual.
I am not sure about more or less pressure. If I was in this for the long term, I would take the farmers approach. Violent initial breakup of the soil (strong pressure to breakup fibrosis and calcification) followed by maintenance once the skin seemed as normal and flexible and purged as normal hair producing scalp. Then at some time there is no rushing nature, hair just takes months to recover and grow, even with transplants.

The one exception that I have seen to this was when I started needling with minox. There were some maybe 50 frontal hairs that just got released as developed full diameter "normal " hairs . I did not see much shed at all, just thickening. I was hoping that it would continue at such a rapid pace. I did slow down to a slow regrowth after about 2 months . I was not going to stay on minox for the rest of my life, so I just stopped in favor of a second transplant.

With the plastic bottle I can really feel deep into the tissue. For sure the areas that have lost the hair first are the most sore. I am quite convinced that if I can recondition the scalp to normal feeling and texture, after the sebum purge , there is a good chance of regrowth. Do I want to wait 9 months to see the first sure results ? Not really.
So now my direction is to spend the $5000 USD for 5000 grafts in Thailand. Once the surgery has fully healed I will continue with the DT and look for marked fill in between grafts. I just do not want to wait around years for results before having the second transplant. Managing and maintaining a successful transplant is where I want to spend my time in life.

Xenon wrote:

I can demonstrate with normal massage that extreme pressure is not normally detrimental. If I stand on a persons buttocks they are unlikely to visibly  bruise, even if I balance on one foot.  Our feet every day handle our body weight. Every guy sitting on his hairy bottom for 8 hours a day seldomly complains about his tail going bald from high pressure and rubbing of the skin. If there was a way to remove body hair with rubbing or massage it would be a very popular alternative to waxing.

Chief difference being, the buttocks have lots of fat to cushion the skin / capillaries from mechanical overload. The scalp OTOH has very little adipose tissue, so the skin cells are easily pressurized against the hard skull. Pressure ulcers form on boney prominences for this very reason.

As Johndoe said, he has been shedding rapidly since applying so much pressure to his scalp for the past three months.

I agree that you can bruise your skin with too much pressure, but healthy skin can withstand the body weight in most areas. A person hand standing on a single palm would not likely bruise the skin of the palm. I do this stand often. Finger pressure on the scalp is fractions of the impact.
 Ulcers are not caused from impact burst capillaries or from massage. I am envisioning bed sores. Capillary problems might occur as a result of poor circulation or oxygen depletion. Massage is used to avoid ulcers and increase circulation.
from a med source online
"  Pressure ulcers tend to affect people with health conditions that make it difficult to move, especially those confined to lying in a bed or sitting for prolonged periods of time.
The extra pressure disrupts the flow of blood through the skin. Without a blood supply, the affected skin becomes starved of oxygen and nutrients, and begins to break down, leading to an ulcer forming.  "

I am sure that I am not holding pressure long enough to starve tissue of oxygen. I am also sure I am not using enough pressure to leave bruise marks.
There is a difference between healthy skin, that grows hair on butts even when sat on 8 hours a day.  Unhealthy skin of a balding person could shed hair quickly for hundreds of reasons.
The idea of DT is to try to convert balding skin to resemble healthy skin with massage. If hairloss in the process is part of the healing/regrowth process;  or just the permanent hairloss of a failed experiment is to be determined. I guess reasonable softer pressures are what have worked/failed for some, but I am willing to risk degrading my existing grafts to try higher pressures. I think there is little chance of hurting the old grafts , and even now my skin is in a better condition with more oxygen and less impurities

Chiropractory works too.

1)Twist your neck with 1 hand clutching the top of your skull and the other onto your chin in a sudden jerk towards the side that u find it hardest to turn towards to
2)90%, u will feel something in your scalp.

It's all about the spine(the atlas verterbra) and its surrounding tissue

cdto2012 wrote:I guess it is the faith factor in most of the long term treatments.  Determining if things like shedding are progress,  or evidence of irritation or general degradation  . Add to this the "normal " hair loss progression that would have continued with no treatment.  Then trying to factor everything against microns of plus or minus peach fuzz.  To continue on in the face of uncertainty and mixed results is up to each individual.  
I am not sure about more or less pressure.  If I was in this for the long term,  I would take the farmers approach. Violent initial breakup of the soil (strong pressure to breakup fibrosis and calcification) followed by maintenance once the skin seemed as normal and flexible and purged as normal hair producing scalp. Then at some time there is no rushing nature, hair just takes months to recover and grow, even with transplants.

  The one exception that I have seen to this was when I started needling with minox. There were some maybe 50 frontal hairs that just got released as developed full diameter "normal " hairs . I did not see much shed at all,  just thickening.  I was hoping that it would continue at such a rapid pace.  I did slow down to a slow regrowth after about 2 months . I was not going to stay on minox for the rest of my life, so I just stopped in favor of a second transplant.

With the plastic bottle I can really feel deep into the tissue. For sure the areas that have lost the hair first are the most sore. I am quite convinced that if I can recondition the scalp to normal feeling and texture, after the sebum purge ,  there is a good chance of regrowth. Do I want to wait 9 months to see the first sure results ? Not really.
 So now my direction is to spend the $5000 USD for 5000 grafts in Thailand.  Once the surgery has fully healed I will continue with the DT and look for marked fill in between grafts. I just do not want to wait around years for results before having the second transplant.  Managing and maintaining a successful transplant is where I want to spend my time in life.

Ok thanks, I still highly doubt I'm doing any damage to my scalp since it's so loose and healthy now which should translate to my hair, but maybe I'll try a few days of low pressure and see how that works, or simply cut down the time to two 20-30 minute sessions, but as you said, I'm in this for the long term to break up fibrosis, and as I mentioned it worked without any question on my widow's peak (the most obvious).

The thing is, after a good DT session my whole scalp feels really warm with all the blood flow, which I assume can only be good.  Also I can see all of my hair on my temples, it's just peach fuzz (I'm sure it's the same higher up I just can't get a good angle to view it)

The thing is it's hard to judge for me because it's been about 1 year right now since quitting minox which means a potential serious shed, and I also started Nizoral recently.

johndoe1225 wrote:

cdto2012 wrote:I guess it is the faith factor in most of the long term treatments.  Determining if things like shedding are progress,  or evidence of irritation or general degradation  . Add to this the "normal " hair loss progression that would have continued with no treatment.  Then trying to factor everything against microns of plus or minus peach fuzz.  To continue on in the face of uncertainty and mixed results is up to each individual.  
I am not sure about more or less pressure.  If I was in this for the long term,  I would take the farmers approach. Violent initial breakup of the soil (strong pressure to breakup fibrosis and calcification) followed by maintenance once the skin seemed as normal and flexible and purged as normal hair producing scalp. Then at some time there is no rushing nature, hair just takes months to recover and grow, even with transplants.

  The one exception that I have seen to this was when I started needling with minox. There were some maybe 50 frontal hairs that just got released as developed full diameter "normal " hairs . I did not see much shed at all,  just thickening.  I was hoping that it would continue at such a rapid pace.  I did slow down to a slow regrowth after about 2 months . I was not going to stay on minox for the rest of my life, so I just stopped in favor of a second transplant.

With the plastic bottle I can really feel deep into the tissue. For sure the areas that have lost the hair first are the most sore. I am quite convinced that if I can recondition the scalp to normal feeling and texture, after the sebum purge ,  there is a good chance of regrowth. Do I want to wait 9 months to see the first sure results ? Not really.
 So now my direction is to spend the $5000 USD for 5000 grafts in Thailand.  Once the surgery has fully healed I will continue with the DT and look for marked fill in between grafts. I just do not want to wait around years for results before having the second transplant.  Managing and maintaining a successful transplant is where I want to spend my time in life.

Ok thanks, I still highly doubt I'm doing any damage to my scalp since it's so loose and healthy now which should translate to my hair, but maybe I'll try a few days of low pressure and see how that works, or simply cut down the time to two 20-30 minute sessions, but as you said, I'm in this for the long term to break up fibrosis, and as I mentioned it worked without any question on my widow's peak (the most obvious).

The thing is, after a good DT session my whole scalp feels really warm with all the blood flow, which I assume can only be good.  Also I can see all of my hair on my temples, it's just peach fuzz (I'm sure it's the same higher up I just can't get a good angle to view it)

The thing is it's hard to judge for me because it's been about 1 year right now since quitting minox which means a potential serious shed, and I also started Nizoral recently.

Oh by the way, my post is too old to edit, but I was wondering, if I don't have any pain in my scalp can I just keep increasing the pressure? For example with the kneading. My scalp gets "floaty" and light but not sore. I placed my fingertips of one hand on my scalp ridge and other areas I feel shouldn't be bumpy, and placed my other hand on top of that hand for maximum pressure and probably felt a small movement, but maybe it's my imagination.  So could I theoretically massage the hell out of my scalp until it actually hurts, as long as I don't slide my fingers and break hairs obviously

Also I was wondering, since my temples feels nice and healthy with no hard fibrotic tissue underneath, should I leave those areas alone and just focus on reducing the scalp ridge and other bumps, and general overall scalp laxity?

I'm still thinning but I can't say if it's due to my natural MPB progression, it seems like it.

I am really going for the idea deep sore  points are telling me where the pressure needs to be focused.  I am searching below the skin for points that seem bone level related.  I would guess that the theory of calcification would be focused near the bone, then extending into deposits in the capillaries restricting blood flow.  Mix calcium with some sticky sebum and I can see how hair growth could be cut off.  I will admit my modeling may be somewhat under researched on calcification.  
   The original DT research was pointing to a calcium dome, that would take some depth pressure to break up and treat. I do not think that skull shape is going to disturb hair growth. I do think that calcium deposits can restrict capillary blood flow and make a cement if mixed with oils. The dome effect may be the inflammation and hardening of the skin due to the calcium, sebum, and oils in the unhealthy scalp, resulting in hair loss.  
 I have very strong fingers, but it is much easier to do the searching for sore areas with the plastic vitamin bottle rounded bottom. The advanced pressure incorporates the idea that to restructure or reduce fibrosis some needling or heavy pressure (massage) would be needed. The image of a scar being concentrated fibrosis. The studies of needling, derma rolling, and massage on scars was found to be effective .  Fix links
XXw.google.co.th/search?q=needling+and+scar+fibrosis+reduction&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=fcUpVpa5McKXuASJ04mgDQ
XXw.google.co.th/search?q=massage+and+fibrosis+scar+reduction&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=GMYpVuWRLpGzuATeybYg

Firstly, as with needling and massage, caution is used to not destructively impact the skin with excessive pressure or deep piercing injury.
At a defined massage pressure, or depth of needle penetration, there is a level that micro bruises cause a healing response that is very useful for strengthening, blood flow,  chemical (hormonal) improvements, and physical restructuring of fibrosis.
So from my experience with needling and DT, the skin within a few weeks improves. The skin soreness is reduced, improved blood flow is obvious.  DT has the advantage of the excreting of oils and sticky sebum like gunk. I use rubbing or vodka with a towel to remove this excretion, along with the honey carbon scrub. Recovery/ healing time of the skin improves.    
With DT I am able to then work deeper on the calcification theory. That crystal deposits need to be broken up and  removed with the increased blood flow. As I do circles with the vitamin bottle, I am almost grating my skin against the scalp. I can feel the pre- treatment sore areas against the bone.
I use the pressure that is a bit more than my fingers  would firmly press.  Then the skin takes on a sore post massaged feeling if I press on it later with my fingers. This is not a visible bruising, more like an after massage deep tissue release soreness. The blood vessels in my temples are clearly expanded with the increased blood flow.  My scalp has no signs of lasting or immediate purple bruising.  The post treatment soreness lasts for only a few hours. It is only sore if I press on it with my fingers, not sore all the time.  When I go to treat 12 hours later the skin is no longer sore.  The deep pre -treatment sore areas are still there , as they take a few weeks to remedy I think, as with areas that need deep massage on the body or shoulders.
As for my forehead and healthy hair areas, if they are sore, I would massage them. I like to use the long rounded side of the vitamin bottle for the forehead . My healthy scalp is my transplant donor area, for sure I am taking care of that.  This all sounds like a lot with finger massage alone. With the bottle it is much faster and can easily be done in 20 minutes with far less hand strain.
 I would say to use common sense. I am a healthy well exercised person. Others may have very sensitive scalps and a gentle progression is needed. Medications may make micro bruising not heal or not be an advantage.  Mostly use wisdom and patience when experimenting .

Ok, thanks again for all the insight!

I'm applying a lot more pressure now during DT, and all over my head, and I got sticky glue release from the back area, and above the right temple, where I never got any before, so I think this tells me that at least in my case, I needed to apply a LOT more pressure.  I'm still having trouble flattening the scalp ridge and other bumpy areas, I made good progress flattening the widow's peak (which is thinning) but the rest I really can't manipulate much at all.  The skin all over my scalp seems very nice and elastic though.

The thing that's bothering me is that I thought I'd at least see my shedding/thinning stop by now, of course as I mentioned it's still in the beginning phase of DT at just over 3 months, but still. Shedding can still be good and is common with other treatments though.

EDIT:  I'm getting a ton of sticky crap that's being released from the crown area.  I find that if I press on it firmly in the shower while wet it seems to work well, but it works anytime also.  It's really amazing.  I mostly get it from the hard ridges in that area that I never actually focused on previously, that will change now.  I thought that since I had no hair loss in that area I could forget about it and just keep it loose...Apparently it's not that simple. It actually gets sensitive too, which is interesting.

Thanks for the update and a confirmation of how fast the cleansing can begin.  I had read other posts that got sticky stuff after months.  It seems also with me that if you press hard enough, it can come out in days.  I think this makes a very useful cleanse for scalp improvement no matter what other treatments were to follow.
You mentioned the shower, I was wondering about the heat assisting the release.
  The ideal situation would be that the DT results could be accelerated with more/correct pressure. Also more definitive results. Perhaps some of the guys were not massing deeply and saw little results. Perhaps they never massaged with enough pressure for their advanced hairloss condition.  
  I am theorizing that the sticky substance possibly builds up in more mass/ volume the longer the skin has been balding. Regrowth may not start until  enough of this substance is removed. If not enough pressure was used, for a long enough purge period, for the advanced state of balding, then the results would not be seen.
 Anyhow pretty exciting to be joining in  discovery of any treatment that starts measurable cleansing within days.

cdto2012 wrote:Thanks for the update and a confirmation of how fast the cleansing can begin.  I had read other posts that got sticky stuff after months.  It seems also with me that if you press hard enough, it can come out in days.  I think this makes a very useful cleanse for scalp improvement no matter what other treatments were to follow.
You mentioned the shower, I was wondering about the heat assisting the release.
  The ideal situation would be that the DT results could be accelerated with more/correct pressure. Also more definitive results. Perhaps some of the guys were not massing deeply and saw little results. Perhaps they never massaged with enough pressure for their advanced hairloss condition.  
  I am theorizing that the sticky substance possibly builds up in more mass/ volume the longer the skin has been balding. Regrowth may not start until  enough of this substance is removed. If not enough pressure was used, for a long enough purge period, for the advanced state of balding, then the results would not be seen.
 Anyhow pretty exciting to be joining in  discovery of any treatment that starts measurable cleansing within days.

Yeah man, we're pioneers here

Also good point about the heat from the shower, maybe that was it.

I'm going to experiment with adding finger pads forceful pressing all over my scalp to see if I get any other areas with this glue crap stuck in it

'Yeah man, we're pioneers here'

u really think in 1000's of years of mpb you're the first ones to try making the scalp loose with massages and pinching etc?

When it comes to hair loss, any little glimmer of hope is worth having a glee party over  ; )

 I had thought of massaging to bring circulation years ago, but why continue with it when the first shed starts? I takes an online community of research and experience to sustain a treatment program that is focused enough to isolate results. The potential of such a simple starting massage technique is that now others can add to it and share results.  
   I really was one of the first guys years ago to start on the forums with needling at deeper levels, with my  defined treatment. It has become now a documented treatment with a supporting industry of products.
 For this DT , maybe we could get analysis done on the fluid excretions, have cadavers tested to really see what is different about a balding scalp and if there is support for a calcium dome etc.
 Any number of things that come from having a simple week long pressure treatment that gets attention. People would assume that most of the vital research has already been done on cadavers and balding dynamics. For me it is possible that most of the research is done with a limited focused objective. This objective is usually inherently product and profit driven.  Even university research grants can be product influenced. A treatment that is free and easy like massage with diet is something  that would not be released (or researched) by a well funded lab financed by pharmaceutical company.

With a crowd of people using the same basic program, then a clear evaluation of the potential can be made, along with independent research.
Like the goofy old communist saying " 20 years work in one day"   maybe we can get 20 days massage value done in one night with the correct pressure and technique .