Supposed Regrowth Protocol

Would agree. As long as it is what it appears to be, that last pic does show a big change. Of all of the supposed "progress" pics I've seen these have been some of the most convincing to me personally, so long as we're looking at the same guy. That would be the one thing I'd still wonder about. I've tried looking at his hairline and eyebrows and it appears to be the same guy.

As far as being similar to the IH regimen, there are some likenesses, but also some differences that are interesting.

• Of course, there isn't any specific recommendation for the coconut oil in the IH regimen; I know CS has recommended it as a source of dietary saturated fat but advocating it and laying it out directly as a tenet of the regimen are two different things. So I think this takes us being clear on the priorities of a regimen. He's recommending upwards of 6 tbsp daily which is quite a bit of coconut oil, and he's also attributing it to a major halt in shedding, a claim which demands some attention (if he's really getting the results we think he is).
  
• The IH regimen doesn't include chromium, instead it has the R-LA/ALC combo. An interesting difference, although I believe CS was using chromium before.
  
• His focus on copper is quite interesting.
  
• Related to the above, this guy's regimen has very high doses of a couple of specific minerals. Nobody at IH (to my knowledge) has been consistently doing 150-200 mg zinc or 2000 mg magnesium. Also the molybdenum at 500 mcg 3 times/day...I would actually be concerned about the possibility of copper deficiency from this and I'd consider it risky to anyone trying it. Certain gut conditions can result in lower molybdenum levels, but just for reference the RDA is around 50 mcg daily for an adult and excess moly results in copper deficiency.
  
• The inclusion of boron specifically; the IH regimen (based on my take of it) focuses less on specific trace mineral supplements and more on complexes found naturally in things like humic acid complexes. I think CS tends to take these things on a case-by-case basis, such as with the vanadium. But nowhere in the basic regimen is there a particular trace mineral to be supped in isolation (the exception being the iodine, of course).
  
• His use of taurine specifically; IH does recommend natural sulfur compounds.
  
• The baking soda.
  
• The topicals: ACV, niacinamide/boron (first I've heard of this), and spiro
  
• He's also recommending a higher intake of marine oils. IH's krill oil is 500 mg daily. This guy is recommending 8-10 caps of mixed fish oils daily; and most supplements this would end up equating to much more than 500 mg.
  
• Overall, a higher level of plant-based antioxidants in the IH regimen; this guy's regimen is relying more on the marine oils, vitamin E, and the lone green tea supp.
  

I'm definitely not touting these differences as more optimal. They may not be. I just think its useful to consider the differences. The dosage difference does interest me as well, because dosage tends to be one of those sensitive variables that can make two different recommendations for the same supplement have different effects based on how much.

At the end of the day, even if we found one of these differences to be the clincher, it would be difficult to isolate that from the whole regimen. We can't be sure what would be tipping the scales.

stresssucks wrote:Does the type of vinegar really matter?

I thought this was kind of a contradictory part of his regimen. A few lines above that he's saying that yeast thrives in an acidic environment (hence the baking soda intake) but then applying vinegar to his scalp?

I mean, I guess pH is the sensitive variable here. The pH of vinegar is lower than most of the compartments of the body, save the stomach so it could be that large swings in pH help control fungus either way.

So in terms of pH alone, the vinegar type should not matter. Its all a fairly strong acid.

But it may be that the Bragg's contains more living organisms, which again I'm not sure how that would play out in how this guy is thinking about hairloss. Acetobacter, which is a big constituent of the "mother" in bragg's vinegar, thrives at low pH. The skin has a naturally occurring acid mantle which is only a unit or two below neutral (so pH of vinegar is lower). Overall I'm not sure how the vinegar plays a role. Whether the aceto/gluconobacter plays a role. Whether the pH shock helps clear away debris and acts like an antibiotic wash.

I'd guess the type of vinegar wouldn't matter a whole lot. The acetobacter can't survive on the skin for very long so I can't believe that pasteurization would really make much of a difference.

One thing I'd keep in mind is that skin secretions, as mentioned, are more acidic than standard physiological pH. I believe around 5.5. In a condition like acne (which I think has some etiological similarities to hairloss), there is a greater sebum secretion and that secretion level is negatively correlated with skin pH, meaning more sebum > more acidic. So again, with vinegar, it could be cleansing in the sense that a huge drop in local pH would kill bacteria present there, but overall I believe it would be more beneficial to cleanse with something alkaline as it should help to break up the buildup of fatty layers on the skin surface. Baking soda would be a good option.

This is an interesting claim on the effects of the vinegar: "AND clear calcium deposits"

I think there are a couple of possible benefits for the use of vinegar, and breakup of calcification may be one of those, but its likely to be slow. When it comes to calcification, its better to prevent than to try to remedy after the fact.

But as far as vinegar goes:

• It should help to exfoliate the skin, degrading the stratum corneum, exposing live skin cells and preventing sebaceous/keratotic buildup. Things like glycolic acid are used for this purpose regularly, albeit in more concentrated forms. Glycolic acid has a lower pH and a lower dipole moment, and should absorb into the skin more readily, however, with a greater potential for irritation.
  
• It should also have local antibiotic effects. Shifting surface pH very low or very high should both achieve these effects, and most of us have been doing this for most of our lives (or at least our teens). When we wash our faces with soap and then apply a salicylic acid acne treatment, this is essentially what we're doing.
  
• Acetic acid does have the potential to breakup ossification, but the limiting factor would probably be skin absorption. Its miscible in water so it would have a tougher time getting through the skin, and acetic acid concentration will vary depending on the particular bottle of vinegar.
  

Overall I believe vinegar is beneficial for skin. Its relatively cheap and very safe, so it makes a great topical. But something like glycolic acid is more potent and would probably be more effective for all of the above, the limiting factor being how often an individual can apply it without irritation. So it may be that vinegar is a more sustainable treatment for that reason, but its variable.

One way to get around the solubility problem of vinegar is to use iontophoresis. You can find some studies online in which tendonitis with calcification has been helped with acetic acid iontophoresis. Its basically applying an electric field to the skin, and this improves the penetrance. If we could somehow find a feasible at-home iontophoresis method, it could make applying apple cider vinegar much more effective. Rather than just being useful for exfoliation, it might be a good anti-calcification strategy - on top of other things such as vitamin K and chelators, like EDTA.

anthony.. yes it's a lot of coconut oil. i read through a lot of the thread on fitmisc and one of the guys said he spoke to this guy, and the guy kept insisting on doing MORE coconut oil.. it seemed to be a staple part of the regimen on killing itch and getting regrowth..

i can't get onto the forum he is on, it's some steroid forum and it's blocked off from public registrations. http://www.gh15.org/forum/ if anyone can get access, it would be great to ask more questions to this dude.

what i'm really curious about is how he got the regrowth on the temples. it's pretty clear he was thinning quite badly. similar to CS's before picture, but it looks like this guy was a little worse. he takes chromium during carb meals which kills the insulin which i can see helping a lot. it could be that anti DHT shampoo to be honest, but i'm nervous about considering it for anyone.. it's pretty potent stuff. there's someone on the propeciahelp forum that took it and has some issues.

I am fan of ACV, but i cant using it constantly due to the smell. The same applies with garlic. I stopped the shed completely using water diluted garlic mixing with ACV on some days. Hope the good trend continues and i have soon regrowth pictures to show you guys! I am basically doing the regimen (with fewer dosages and dont take all of it (taurine for example) the thread is about for a year now along with iodine protocol and a bit of MTHFR. Addressing some things electrically as well. I stopped getting  small pimples if addressing nanobacteria sets months ago. I hope that means breakdown of calcium deposits.

I was wondering if getting the esters by combining essential oils with the small amount alcohol would fix the smell issues if mixed into mixture...

I use niacinamide+zinc picolinate + dmae topical quite regularly, and MSM+vitamin c once in a while... I dont wash my hair very often - 2-3 times a week.

EDIT: Sweating might contribute to the latest success as well. I exercise a lot lately.

So if copper promotes estrogen than it is not wise to use Opti-Zinc which has copper in it ?

Biffy,

Its not so much that copper promotes estrogen as estrogen can tend to make you hold onto copper, at least reportedly. Without knowing what your levels are its hard to make a wager. That's the aspect of the regimen I'd hesitate about. Taking a shitload of zinc without copper, along with other copper displacing minerals, could put you in a deficiency state, which also poses problems. I mean, that's the rub really. If you have an excess you'll benefit, and his assumption is his hairloss was correlated with high copper. But if you aren't, you might be asking for other issues. I think it would be wise to test your levels, and I say that without knowing how reliable the testing (stuff like spectracell) is. He makes a point to say this his issue was systemically high estrogen levels, which combined with the fact he was using steroids, begs the question of what his E levels were and what he was also taking for estrogen management.

Sanderson,

Yeah, I'd agree on that point. The thing you never know with posts like his are what other things he might be doing. Of course, he admitted to the spiro use. It could be a major factor. But what I'm saying is that at forums like those where things like some analog of "rep points" might come into play, or just attention seeking or confirmation bias, people are apt to make all kinds of sensational posts. To be frank, the kind of regrowth we're seeing in those pics seems pretty exceptional if we're assuming it was androgenic hairloss - which it appears to be. Someone making that kind of a post touting a regimen like that probably wouldn't be inclined to admit if they were also using minox and/or fin. We see that all the time, "I regrew my hair with this natural regimen", with a disclaimer at the bottom (or not at all) *also on fin 5 mg/day. Given that he's using steroids, its just hard to imagine that kind of regrowth on a totally natural regimen, but he is using some pretty high doses of some of the supps, so along with the dietary changes, it is still kind of interesting. I just wish we had more clear information, especially the length of the treatment, exactly what he was doing gear-wise during that, and everything he was doing prior to starting the regimen.

AS54 wrote:Biffy,

Its not so much that copper promotes estrogen as estrogen can tend to make you hold onto copper, at least reportedly. Without knowing what your levels are its hard to make a wager. That's the aspect of the regimen I'd hesitate about. Taking a shitload of zinc without copper, along with other copper displacing minerals, could put you in a deficiency state, which also poses problems. I mean, that's the rub really. If you have an excess you'll benefit, and his assumption is his hairloss was correlated with high copper. But if you aren't, you might be asking for other issues. I think it would be wise to test your levels, and I say that without knowing how reliable the testing (stuff like spectracell) is. He makes a point to say this his issue was systemically high estrogen levels, which combined with the fact he was using steroids, begs the question of what his E levels were and what he was also taking for estrogen management.

Sanderson,

Yeah, I'd agree on that point. The thing you never know with posts like his are what other things he might be doing. Of course, he admitted to the spiro use. It could be a major factor. But what I'm saying is that at forums like those where things like some analog of "rep points" might come into play, or just attention seeking or confirmation bias, people are apt to make all kinds of sensational posts. To be frank, the kind of regrowth we're seeing in those pics seems pretty exceptional if we're assuming it was androgenic hairloss - which it appears to be. Someone making that kind of a post touting a regimen like that probably wouldn't be inclined to admit if they were also using minox and/or fin. We see that all the time, "I regrew my hair with this natural regimen", with a disclaimer at the bottom (or not at all) *also on fin 5 mg/day. Given that he's using steroids, its just hard to imagine that kind of regrowth on a totally natural regimen, but he is using some pretty high doses of some of the supps, so along with the dietary changes, it is still kind of interesting. I just wish we had more clear information, especially the length of the treatment, exactly what he was doing gear-wise during that, and everything he was doing prior to starting the regimen.

Gotta say, your posts are always very informative and well written. Always a pleasure to read from you.

Now, as I said before, I already purchased a lot of supplements listed in this regimen. I will take them according to the dosage indicated on each bottle, no more, no less, and see whare that gets me hair-wise. I don't take anything else internally and don't apply products like minox. My hairloss is fairly recent (I am 22 years old ans shedding started at 18), I don't have as much density as before but I believe that nothing that I have lost can't be regained if I could find the correct way to answer my shedding.

I'll keep you guys updated. This regimen is also supposed to help with energy levels, because it boosts the metabolism (iodine is fuel for the thyroid, and coconut oil promote thyroid function as well).

AS54 wrote:
I'm definitely not touting these differences as more optimal. They may not be. I just think its useful to consider the differences. The dosage difference does interest me as well, because dosage tends to be one of those sensitive variables that can make two different recommendations for the same supplement have different effects based on how much.

The strange thing about this protocol and the statement that "DHT doesn't matter" is the fact that coconut oil
is a 5AR inhibitor and raises testosterone (via saturated fat and reduction of 5AR activity), coconut oil also
is an anti fungal which suppresses yeasts/fungus which cause LPS and other gut problems which increase mast
cell activity.

Iodine is an anti fungal, reduces prostate size, allows increases of SHBG which binds to DHT (which it has the highest
affinity for), and increases IGF-1 and improves insulin response.

Manoko,

Thanks very much. I appreciate that a lot.

Please keep us posted on how this regimen goes for you. I'm really interested to see if some of those higher dosage recommendations make a difference, whatever that may be.

Egodust,

Good points. I think that's one of the points of confusion about some of the natural regimens, that they tend to get mixed up with the notion that DHT doesn't matter. It definitely does matter, and some of the pathways these "natural" regimens work based on have to do with indirectly lowering DHT by reducing the converting enzymes. I know that even in the past, I've tossed about the idea that DHT is a "side show", and to some degree it can be depending on the pathway we're looking at. For example, electron scavengers have been shown to prevent DHT elevation of DKK-1 proteins. So it all depends on scale and how high over the entire process you are when looking down at it.

AS54 wrote:
For example, electron scavengers have been shown to prevent DHT elevation of DKK-1 proteins. So it all depends on scale and how high over the entire process you are when looking down at it.

Exactly - hair growth is like a representation of the whole body - DHT is there because the lymph is overworked,
the liver isn't handling hormone production, the testes are more likely than not inflamed, minerals are missing, the
immune system is weak and the body is malnourished.

If you look at people who have taken 5AR destroyers in a bid to get rid of DHT production (i.e. twinshairloss), the
hair doesn't look healthy, it shows massive problems still.

The problem is of course the parts of the puzzle are in no way directly connected, you have to figure out what is
going on and everyone has different broken pieces.

New progress pictures from somebody at another forum, doing the regimen.

What do you guys think ?

Manoko wrote:

New progress pictures from somebody at another forum, doing the regimen.

What do you guys think ?

Great regrowth ! Any link ?

JamesDean wrote:

Manoko wrote:

New progress pictures from somebody at another forum, doing the regimen.

What do you guys think ?

Great regrowth ! Any link ?

Sure !

What do you guys think ? Legit ?

A lot less light in the second pic... but even so it does seem like significant regrowth.

Unfortunately those latter pictures are totally worthless. I know it seems like there is regrowth, but you could take the man in that second photo and stick him in direct, bright sunlight like this, and it would make the hairline seem thinned out. That's just the nature of that hair right at the hairline. In any mature man, even when its there, its typically more fine.

There is no light in the second pic so it looks totally full, but I promise if you put that right under the sun the fineness of those hairs would be revealed. You even see this on women sometimes. Next time you are outside in bright sunlight, check out a girl that has her hair pulled back. If you catch her at the right moment where direct sunlight is beating down on her scalp, you'll see the regions right there at the lateral hairline show significant scalp. Its not a lack of hair, but a difference in texture.

The look of fullness when there is no direct light has a lot to do with his hair color, the light doesn't penetrate the hair so it tends to have a less dramatic effect. Even areas where I was thinning appeared much much better in low room light (like the second pic). It makes a sunlight pic like the first one totally worthless really. If you look at the hairline in the second pic, its still very obvious that that hair is quite fine. But it isn't reduced in number, just diameter so it just looks like "full fine" hair.

Not to mention we don't know what time of day these were taken. Showering and having clean, dry hair totally changes how thick it appears. Go a full day and let the sebum and anything airborne get picked up on the scalp over the hours and it will look different. So again, it isn't reliable if that second pic got taken, for example, after he just got done getting pretty for a night out.

AS54 wrote:Unfortunately those latter pictures are totally worthless. I know it seems like there is regrowth, but you could take the man in that second photo and stick him in direct, bright sunlight like this, and it would make the hairline seem thinned out. That's just the nature of that hair right at the hairline. In any mature man, even when its there, its typically more fine.

There is no light in the second pic so it looks totally full, but I promise if you put that right under the sun the fineness of those hairs would be revealed. You even see this on women sometimes. Next time you are outside in bright sunlight, check out a girl that has her hair pulled back. If you catch her at the right moment where direct sunlight is beating down on her scalp, you'll see the regions right there at the lateral hairline show significant scalp. Its not a lack of hair, but a difference in texture.

The look of fullness when there is no direct light has a lot to do with his hair color, the light doesn't penetrate the hair so it tends to have a less dramatic effect. Even areas where I was thinning appeared much much better in low room light (like the second pic). It makes a sunlight pic like the first one totally worthless really. If you look at the hairline in the second pic, its still very obvious that that hair is quite fine. But it isn't reduced in number, just diameter so it just looks like "full fine" hair.

I agree, I immediately asked the guy who took pics of his scalp to take one with the same lighting conditions, since I know that it plays a huge role.
Told me he will take one sometimes, so will post it here if/when he does.

Nice Manoko, glad you are keeping up with the thread for us. That's a lot of reading.

AS54 wrote:Sanderson,

Yeah, I'd agree on that point. The thing you never know with posts like his are what other things he might be doing. Of course, he admitted to the spiro use. It could be a major factor. But what I'm saying is that at forums like those where things like some analog of "rep points" might come into play, or just attention seeking or confirmation bias, people are apt to make all kinds of sensational posts. To be frank, the kind of regrowth we're seeing in those pics seems pretty exceptional if we're assuming it was androgenic hairloss - which it appears to be. Someone making that kind of a post touting a regimen like that probably wouldn't be inclined to admit if they were also using minox and/or fin. We see that all the time, "I regrew my hair with this natural regimen", with a disclaimer at the bottom (or not at all) *also on fin 5 mg/day. Given that he's using steroids, its just hard to imagine that kind of regrowth on a totally natural regimen, but he is using some pretty high doses of some of the supps, so along with the dietary changes, it is still kind of interesting. I just wish we had more clear information, especially the length of the treatment, exactly what he was doing gear-wise during that, and everything he was doing prior to starting the regimen.

so true.. brah.   but i have seen some PMs from the guy between members posting there.. seems pretty adament about being against finasteride and talking down how bad it is.

i'm going to go ahead and say that i think this guy's regimen is pretty good for you all. i actually didn't post about this, but i tried his regimen for a few days because i actually all ready had almost all the supplements he recommended. i have post fin issues and felt myself feeling very deflated after starting it. i can only say that i think this is because my body is in a bad state from fin and this is suppressing the anti DHT issues from finasteride even more.

stresssucks wrote:Nice Manoko, glad you are keeping up with the thread for us. That's a lot of reading.

You're welcome. I am very motivated (like all of you here) to solve my hairloss, so that's normal.

Anyway, I have got accepted in the forum where the regrowth protocal was originally posted. I got lucky, since you have to be accepted by the admins when registering.
I found other pictures of Taeian, the person you can see on the OP here and the side photo with his hair standing.

He posted them without stating the chronological order, so I'll add them here clueless to when they were taken, sorry.

http://www.gh15.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=28363.0;attach=29313;image
http://www.gh15.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=28363.0;attach=29314;image
http://www.gh15.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=28363.0;attach=29315;image
http://www.gh15.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=28363.0;attach=29316;image

Just a supposition, but those four pictures above may have been taken while he still was getting regrowth. His hair are obviously better than what we can see on the first photos in the first post of this thread, but you can see (thanks to the great amount of lighting), that his temples still aren't full yet.

http://www.gh15.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=28363.0;attach=29318;image (This one is most likely before he got on the regimen, since his hair was pretty bad at that time, diffuse thinning all around).

http://www.gh15.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=28363.0;attach=29319;image (This one shows that his hair quality has improved a lot, and those little hair on his temple may be due to regrowth, because his hairline seem to have progressed).

http://www.gh15.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=28363.0;attach=29321;image (I also think this one is a "before" picture).



I couldn't host them myself and resize them apparently (it tells me that the file isn't supported or something), so I let them as links instead of making them appear automatically.

A few things.

The mega dosing of the minerals? Ok, the zinc I somewhat understand, however 2000mg mg? Couldn't that be detrimental after a few weeks

I'd like to hear how you guys are getting 6 TBSPs of CO down. Thanks

thx for efforts Mamolo but the links need a membership

NYJets wrote:A few things.

The mega dosing of the minerals? Ok, the zinc I somewhat understand, however 2000mg mg? Couldn't that be detrimental after a few weeks

I'd like to hear how you guys are getting 6 TBSPs of CO down. Thanks

thx for efforts Mamolo but the links need a membership

Not all magnesium you put in the stomach will be absorbed, specially in sources of chloride or oxide. Excess of Mg in the blood is easily removed from the body. And if deficiency is severe the RDA, which is 400mg/day won't do to anybody much beneficial. As from i am aware, for those kind of people - magnesium injections are a good options. Also getting the magnesium in the cells is long termed process - it might require 6 months or more time of intaking plenty more than RDA... Of course there can be enough of it in your diet, or not.

I'd personally go after higher magnesium intake if other mineral and vitamin deficiencies are expected, and if there is not enough calcium in the diet/supplementation.

For the CO, i just put it in my breakfast meal 2-3 table spoons easily. I cook with it, i use it to make home made chocolate. I know heating might be the problem, though. I'd get some honey on the top of it and it will taste better. For the taste, it highly depends on the brand you use.

I think idea is not to eat 6 table spoons at once, but during the whole day. I personally believe, the same applies also for probiotics as well as prebiotics (recently adding resistant starch to my diet). I find it more beneficial if i take it plenty times a day,a few tablespoons at a the time. But hope you notice word ''believe'', as i have nothing scientifically to verify it.

Beebrox wrote:

NYJets wrote:A few things.

The mega dosing of the minerals? Ok, the zinc I somewhat understand, however 2000mg mg? Couldn't that be detrimental after a few weeks

I'd like to hear how you guys are getting 6 TBSPs of CO down. Thanks

thx for efforts Mamolo but the links need a membership

Not all magnesium you put in the stomach will be absorbed, specially in sources of chloride or oxide. Excess of Mg in the blood is easily removed from the body. And if deficiency is severe the RDA, which is 400mg/day won't do to anybody much beneficial. As from i am aware, for those kind of people - magnesium injections are a good options.

I'd personally go after higher magnesium intake if other mineral and vitamin deficiencies are expected, and if there is not enough calcium in the diet/supplementation.

For the CO, i just put it in my breakfast meal 2-3 table spoons easily. I cook with it, i use it to make home made chocolate. I know heating might be the problem, though. I'd get some honey on the top of it and it will taste better. For the taste, it highly depends on the brand you use.

I think idea is not to eat 6 table spoons at once, but during the whole day. I personally believe, the same applies also for probiotics as well as prebiotics (recently adding resistant starch to my diet). I find it more beneficial if i take it plenty times a day,a few tablespoons at a the time. But hope you notice word ''believe'', as i have nothing scientifically to verify it.

the problem with magnesium is that it is required for the body but if candida overgrowth has occurred then zinc + calcium
are actually better (but not at the same time), magnesium is better to get via the skin or some other means, because it helps
candida grow, source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2037228

@Manoko we can't see the images because you have to have an account at GH15 to view it. If you can't save the pictures, I recommend you downlaod this: http://getgreenshot.org/

It lets you select an area of your screen (you goto select region) and then you will be able to directly save that area of the screen into an image file. Save them all to a folder, then you can upload all the files at once over at imgur.com