Hormone Test Came Back With Results That Seemed To Confirm My Suspicions

I had posted a while back about low testosterone. The latest test I just had done confirmed this, with Total T at around 230. Basically less than what a 70 year old man would have.

I finally found an endo who was willing to test for Total Estrogen also. My results were 184 pg/ml. Optimal range for a male is probably under 35. Yeah, that bad.

The symptoms of this imbalance have been with me for the last four of five years now. And its taken that amount of time for my hair to thin to almost nothing.

We often hear that low SHBG is the problem, and it certainly could be a player here. If my DHT had been measured, that would have been enlightening. But it does look like this is a big conversion problem. The gonadotropins aren't elevated, and the other pituitary hormones are middle of the range, so this suggests the problem isn't with the testicles, hence probably 5-ar and aromatase. While I have done a decent job of lowering my body fat, I still have this odd round belly.

Just wanted to share in case anyone was interested. We seem to want to demonize testosterone itself, quite a bit, when it seems to me its more about the ratios of total T and free T to estrogen/DHT. My results combined with how fast my hair left the picture, seem to suggest a high level of total T is pro-hair.

That's a big discovery about your hormones, imo. I'll watch the replies with interest as to what the causes of low T might be. One tip, though, wherever the blockages may be, the summer sun exposure can only help boost the T levels, in conjunction with natural Vitamin A. In MI this would be a narrow window, so you should work on boosting your vitamin D levels with sun now. A good calculator is
http://nadir.nilu.no/~olaeng/fastrt/VitD-ez_quartMED.html I see they have a version 1.2 out.

Anthony, I can't remember...what is your diet like? Just curious.

9rugrats5 wrote:That's a big discovery about your hormones, imo. I'll watch the replies with interest as to what the causes of low T might be. One tip, though, wherever the blockages may be, the summer sun exposure can only help boost the T levels, in conjunction with natural Vitamin A. In MI this would be a narrow window, so you should work on boosting your vitamin D levels with sun now. A good calculator is
http://nadir.nilu.no/~olaeng/fastrt/VitD-ez_quartMED.html    I see they have a version 1.2 out.

rugrats, very cool!

Geez, sounds like your diet and foodhabbits are severly in need of a change.

Wow, that was a really helpful comment, cpio. Are you naturally gifted at human relations, or did you have to work at it?

Anthony -

Are you going to do hormone replacement here for the T or were you already doing that?

It's kind of amazing that you were doing all the strength training we've talked about and didn't see a decent bump in your T.

Also, have you been supplementing with A & D3 the whole time or avoiding those?

My T was that low 6 years ago and I've bumped it up into the 500's on one blood test with diet, supplements and heavy resistance training. But I agree, the round belly/stubborn belly thing is somehow related to this and I think the moment I stop being vigilant with food, training, supplementing I feel like garbage and my belly puffs back out.

One of my Dr's wanted to give me T replacement therapy but then told me I couldn't try to have kids with my wife if I were on it so we passed since we haven't decided on that issue yet.

I do think a lot of Tim Ferriss' tactics for raising T naturally in 4 Hour Body work if you use them.

I hope CS sees this thread and adds his thoughts

Thanks for all of the replies everybody.

Very good advice and great link, Rugrats. I've actually been getting a lot of sun exposure this summer. According to the link I need only about 4 minutes for 25 micrograms of D. I've been spending at least an hour outside during the week, and around 2-4 hours outdoors on weekends. Perhaps I should be more careful about my use of sunblock though. I know its poison, but damn I can't stand getting burnt because when I burn, I'm toast.

Whodathunkit, I had been very strict for the better part of a year. I would say it was a Peat-ish diet, with emphasis on the ish, because I was very conservative with my carbohydrate. Looking back on things, even though I was adhering to a pretty strict macronutrient ratio (used the app at reddit.com/leangains) I was taking in perhaps too much carbohydrate on work days. But admittedly, in about the last month or so I've had a bit of a falling off. I tend to during the summer months, just too many opportunities to cheat  . One thing I can say is that the fat content of my diet hasn't been as well controlled as it should be either. More cooked oils than I'd be comfortable with if I was looking at it on paper. Overall, lots of protein (mostly animal source), fruit, yogurt, conservative amount of vegetables usually broccoli/carrot/onion, and rice for carbohydrate on work days.

Cpio, you gifted communicator you. Haha. I do agree with you especially concerning my diet in the past month or so. But I would say overall, the magnitude of the imbalance in my sex hormones can't be explained by a month of poor eating (especially considering what I consider poor is still probably better than the standard of most males who have much better sex hormone profiles). There is something occurring here beyond just a bad diet. I have two brothers who by most respects are my equivalent, save for this little problem. Their diets are shit and yet...healthy as horses, at least aesthetically.

Hadrion, I was considering this when I got the results, as I'm sure the doctor is going to suggest it. My first order of business is going to be to identify whether the hypogonadism is primary or secondary. The gonadotropins and other pituitary hormones seem to point to a secondary cause, and whether that is just too much conversion to DHT/estrogen or perhaps an estrogen producing tumor, I can't be sure.

Interestingly, a 24 hour urine cortisol test came back at 49.3 ug/day. This particular lab has an upper limit of 50, but I know of labs with an upper limit of 40. While that cortisol level is on the upper end, I don't believe its Cushings. To my knowledge, I would guess the excess estrogen is what is influencing the higher than average cortisol.

I was also surprised about the exercise thing. I've been working my ass of and taking high doses of the fat soluble vitamins (also zinc) and I was really expecting this to have an impact on my T levels. It didn't even put a dent in them. In fact they fell. I'm just as confused. But if we are dealing with something like hyper-cortisolism, this could explain that.

I'll have to think very hard about the T replacement thing. The part of me that's always been interested in steroid hormones wants to say yes. I believe it can be done safely especially if I can also convince the doctor to prescribe an aromatase inhibitor and some HCG after the cycle is overwith. I mean honestly I'm at a loss. As I mentioned to Cpio, the magnitude of this imbalance is staggering. My T is lower than what an 80 year old man should be, and my estrogen, really? Given that I've been doing close to what I consider practically possible for me in terms of weight training and diet (excluding this past month), I just don't see any other lifestyle change I can implement that can correct this huge imbalance. Its something bigger. Especially given that all of these pro-testosterone strategies actually saw my total T fall!

Seeker, agreed.

Have you tried avoiding masturbation and porn? Cut to once a week or every 8-10 days, doing this brought back my morning erections.

I can't say that I've really tried to avoid it. While not trying to reveal too much info, since being single for the past two months or so, its difficult to say the least haha.

But I have noticed a distinct change in mood, mental clarity, drive, and that sense of "alpha" when I do go several days without it. Could be something to that, not to mention the distinct flush that I experience post ejaculation. My whole face gets very hot. Probably a function of vasodilatory factors involved in erection and the autonomic nervous response, which tends to be overactive in people with rosacea to begin with.

Funny I'm even mentioning "alpha" when my T is in the two hundreds.  

Deficiencies and toxicities, or more specifically issues such as too many heavy metals in your body not allowing the proper output to give needed hormonal values. Something blocking your output, to simplify direction, things generally don't work because of a lack of something or a blockage, or too much of something. BPAs are definitely not going to help either, I pretty much use no commercial products or plastic bottles for example..Do you live a lifestyle that increases the need for testosterone, (Physical and mental signals) working out, paying a lot of attention to women etc. (with out the Over ejaculation...) before i worry about dht id rather think about my body oxygen levels. Just my 2cents.

MikeBison wrote:Have you tried avoiding masturbation and porn? Cut to once a week or every 8-10 days, doing this brought back my morning erections.

I agree with this. Jerking off too much causes T to be converted into DHT. DHT seems to promote hot flashes, similar to that experienced by post menopausal women with low estrogen (postmenopausal women subject to hot flashes also seem to experience hairloss). I know, without doubt, that these extremely hot flashes to the temples during masturbation caused my hairline to recede over the years. As also previously mentioned, when I abstained twice, some temple hairs began to grow back after several months, so this cannot be coincidence. From what I've so far gathered, a surge in DHT causes a huge increase in body heat -- just like those experienced by steroid users.

I receive regular emails from guys who responded to a thread i created regarding the connection between masturbating and hairloss. Here's a recent one from a guy who says that he has experienced some regrowth since quitting:

"I read your story on a blog about how you quit masturbating and your hair grew back. Well I believe what you wrote and I have done the same thing. I have also seen little fuzzy/transparent hairs sprouting up where I use to be completely bald. I just want to know if these hair will eventually turn back into normal hairs"

But the level of regrowth success through abstinence was quite limited. When I saw temple hairs regrowing via this method, I really believed that all follicles would eventually regenerate and produce new terminal hair, but I started shitting myself in case I started to resemble a Eunuch, or developed prostate problems, so decided it just wasn't worth continuing.

Xenon wrote:but I started shitting myself in case I started to resemble a Eunuch, or developed prostate problems, so decided it just wasn't worth continuing.

Abstaining from masturbation can do this?

I've been going without milking myself for about a month now, definitely notice positive changes.  I feel a lot more creative too like my mind has more clarity.

Sorry for the slight hijack anthony, i was just interest in what Xenon said.

@theseeker... I had no actual side effects from abstaining (for 6 months), other than rapid weight gain, yet this was a mix of fat and muscle (I wasn't even working out at the time). I also felt full of energy and in high spirits too. But so many people were informing me that abstinence can cause prostate problems. I also recalled how many fin users started to develop soft skin like a Eunuch, so I thought that if my DHT levels drop too low from abstaining, then perhaps the same thing might happen to me also.

Another strange thing which you might think is unbelievable... when I abstained, I noticed so many women showing sexual interest in me, then I receive emails from two more guys (who abstained) who told me the same thing had happened to them (I never even mentioned my experience to them either). I wonder if abstaining may have some affect on pheromones and auto induction?

ETA: Here's a very interesting blog concerning the side effects of Finasteride. The guy also says that he experienced lower body temperature and zero sebum production from his scalp: http://mypropeciasideeffects.com/my-propecia-side-effects-symptoms.html

Xenon wrote:@theseeker... I had no actual side effects from abstaining (for 6 months), other than rapid weight gain, yet this was a mix of fat and muscle (I wasn't even working out at the time). I also felt full of energy and in high spirits too. But so many people were informing me that abstinence can cause prostate problems. I also recalled how many fin users started to develop soft skin like a Eunuch, so I thought that if my DHT levels drop too low from abstaining, then perhaps the same thing might happen to me also.

Another strange thing which you might think is unbelievable... when I abstained, I noticed so many women showing sexual interest in me, then I receive emails from two more guys (who abstained) who told me the same thing had happened to them (I never even mentioned my experience to them either). I wonder if abstaining may have some affect on pheromones and auto induction?

ETA: Here's a very interesting blog concerning the side effects of Finasteride. The guy also says that he experienced lower body temperature and zero sebum production from his scalp: http://mypropeciasideeffects.com/my-propecia-side-effects-symptoms.html

About the women thing, I've heard of that too, i believe someone here linked an article about stopping masturbation and apparently women can see it in a guy when he has a full tank of Testosterone and hasn't been wasting it by sitting around jerking off all the time, I've also seen a lot of guys mention the same effect so there is something to it as you mentioned.

My thread has lived long enough to become a masturbation thread. It was a good day.

anthonyspencer54 wrote:My thread has lived long enough to become a masturbation thread. It was a good day.

LOL. If you don't mind me asking Anthony are erections affected with that low of a T level. Also, someone mentioned you weight train, are you able to put on muscle? Mind if I ask your age?

anthonyspencer54 wrote:My thread has lived long enough to become a masturbation thread. It was a good day.

Lmao.

Sorry man, didn't mean for it to reach a second page due to masturbation being discussed.

Is this doctor willing to test further?

Whodathunkit, Anthony, you are welcome. The recommendation of sun exposure around noon may be a mere 4 minutes during peak summer, but do note that the recommended exposure starts increasing 1.5 hours either side of noon. What I mean is, UVB, which actives production of Vit-D in skin penetrates the atmosphere best between 10:30 am-1:30 pm. Fyi, 25 microgram of Vitamin D is 1000 IU.

anthonyspencer54 wrote:Sizzling,

You are fine to get more than 15 mg zinc daily. Really. In fact, you'd probably be better off getting more than 15 mg zinc. At least 30 mg would be better, and I usually prefer at least 50.

I've been getting between 50-100 mg for the past few weeks and have experienced zero problems.

Maybe you should reconsider the above advice you offered in another thread, in the light of your recent test results. The amount of zinc mentioned is likely to depress DHT way too much.

NY Jets,

I'm 25. The erection thing is odd. If I'm aroused, I can get an erection no problem. What I find that it effects is interest in sex. I just don't feel AS much interest as I feel I should. I would still say its a healthy sex-drive, but combined with this next thing, its definitely not normal. That next thing is that I find that interest in sex actually takes more effort to maintain during the act itself. It feels as though it requires more mental effort to keep myself aroused. And the big reason is I think its more difficult to reach orgasm. There is definitely less sensation.

Its odd, my secondary sex characteristics are confusing. My male parts matured, I developed a good amount of body hair, my voice is very deep. On the flipside I couldn't grow facial hair above my jawline if I wanted to. Its been that way since puberty. My jaw has a somewhat feminine contour.

But the muscle thing is confusing and makes me interested in learning more about the hormonal component. I can put on muscle quite easily and have a good amount of it.

Seeker, No problem man. I was just playin around.

Keep Growin, I do believe he is. Which makes me more comfortable. I'd actually like a CT of the testicles if he's willing.

Rugrats, more good information. Thanks.

Cpio, without having had a DHT test its difficult to tell if that is the case. I really doubt you'd see any inhibition of 5-ar, at least respectable amounts, at 50 mg daily. But I can't be positive. But if anything, zinc has been shown to be an aromatase inhibitor, so I would have expected it to do something beneficial for my estrogen levels. If zinc was acting in me as its been reported to act, I would have seen my hormones do the opposite of what they're doing right now.

FWIW, I have heard DHT metabolism is best measured by either a 3α-diol-gluc blood test or urine 5a-THF (allo-tetrahydrocortisol) / THF (tetrahydrocortisol) ratio.

Delusional, that's interesting. That would probably give a good idea of the 3a-HSD and 5-ar activity. I'll mention it at my next appointment.

I am trying to get an idea of what the situation could be, and maybe this is just self-service to get my own thoughts in order, but if anybody has any thoughts, it would be appreciated.

My first thought was hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The gonadotropins are low, but within range, which already hurts that argument. The problem here being that we wouldn't necessarily expect estrogen to be so high (184) when test production is actually very low. This could still be the case if an estrogen producing tumor is present. But given that the other pituitary hormones are quite normal, it doesn't help a case for hypo-pituitarism.

The second thought is that perhaps testosterone production is actually in the normal range, but SHBG is quite low. This would seem to corroborate the hypothyroidism, as the doctor felt a nodule on his last examination of my thyroid. But the test results returned completely normal thyroid levels (TSH, T4, T3) but I believe these might be artificial being that I had been on 60 mg armour thyroid for a month or so prior to testing. So it could still be that the thyroid gland itself is still operating suboptimally, which could contribute to low SHBG. But this would set the stage for an increase in aromatase/5-ar activity, and increases in estrogen and DHT. Without having had DHT tested, I can't say for sure.

There is also still the potential that there is some kind of physical defect in the testicle itself, perhaps a leydig cell tumor. But again, if the problem was just low testosterone production, would we expect estrogen to rise to such a high level? It just seems to me that that much estrogen would require a proportionate amount of testosterone substrate. If there is another mechanism that could account for it, would love to hear about it.

All of this might also suggest a problem with the liver, low enzyme function. Perhaps its hypogonadism combined with poor conjugation, and possibly even a problem in the gut with SIBO/dysbiosis contributing to deconjugation and recycling of estrogen.

I'm going to try to get him to listen to my case and explore what the underlying causes could be here. I won't be satisfied if he JUST wants to get me on supplemental T and arimidex. I don't want to be on a mediction my whole life, so I am expecting him to want to do a little more exploration. These might be a useful bandaid during that exploration period though. I still haven't decided. Will keep this updated as I figure it all out.