Caustic-How about a high fat, high protein Raw Vegan diiet??

Using high quantities of nuts and seeds as a primary protein source, and Coconut Oil , Red Palm Oi as saturated fat sources, Omega 3's from flax meal, Walnuts.
Such a diet is touted as the "best of all worlds" and loaded with Superfoods, enzymes,fiber and friendly fats, a raw "Vegan Paleo diet " if you will, advocated by the likes of Mike Mahler-MMA, Kettlebell guru.

Is meat really necessary in your opinion if one consumes copious quantities of nuts and seeds??

I've done MUCH better since I integrated several tablespoons of Coconut and Red Palm Oil into my diet several years ago, and do graze on nuts throughout the day.

Interested to say the least in your perspectives on this.

Southbeach wrote: Using high quantities of nuts and seeds as a primary protein source, and Coconut Oil , Red Palm Oi as saturated fat sources, Omega 3's from flax meal, Walnuts.
Such a diet is touted as the "best of all worlds" and loaded with Superfoods, enzymes,fiber and friendly fats, a raw "Vegan Paleo diet " if you will, advocated by the likes of Mike Mahler-MMA, Kettlebell guru.

Is meat really necessary in your opinion if one consumes copious quantities of nuts and seeds??

I've done MUCH better since I integrated several tablespoons of Coconut and Red Palm Oil into my diet several years ago, and do graze on nuts throughout the day.

Interested to say the least in your perspectives on this.

I will admit that a high nut based diet or a high-plant-fat diet would be much better than a high-animal-fat diet. Animal-fat contain cholesterol while plant-fat contains phytosterols! But is it healthier than the McDougall Diet? I don't think so.

Southbeach - There is a noted structural difference between animal protein and vegan protein. When in doubt, it's a good idea to include at least some animal protein in the diet.

One good example of this is regarding vitamin A and/or retinol and its esters is only found in animal fats.

While plants contain beta-carotene, the vitamin A precursor--this conversion only works in the intestines with the presence of bile salts. So in other words, sufficient fat must be eaten in order to stimulate the bile secretion to allow this process.

Additionally, there are simply several groups of people who cannot make this conversion and require sources for their vitamin A.

CausticSymmetry wrote:Southbeach - There is a noted structural difference between animal protein and vegan protein. When in doubt, it's a good idea to include at least some animal protein in the diet.

Many scientist use to think that eating meat or animal-protein increased testosterone, but when they looked a little closer, they found that eating the meat actually lowers the total amount of testosterone (the SHBG bound fraction) [1] [2]. So if eating meat lowers total-testosterone, why are body-builders still gaining muscle?

The answer is that meat eating or eating animal-protein increases free-IGF-1 [3] [4]. IGF-1 is the most anabolic hormone in the body, so it is no wonder why eating meat would increase muscle mass.

The down side to this is that animal-protein is very bad for the bones [5] it causes calcium loss thru the urine. Free-IGF-1 lowers SHBG and increases free-testosterone which then converts to either estrogen or DHT. Also free-IGF-1 is known to speed up the aging process [6] [7] [8] not to mention its role in cancer. Bald men also show to have high levels of free-IGF-1 and lower levels of IGFBP-3 [9].

Vegan men however are shown to have 9% lower free-IGF-1 and 13% higher total-testosterone compared to a meat-eater [2]. Plus there is evidence that gladiators, the strongest men ever alive, were nothing more than slaves who were feed barley. They were indeed vegan.




[1] Diet-hormone interactions: protein/carbohydrate ratio alters reciprocally the plasma levels of testosterone and cortisol and their respective binding globulins in man.

[2] Hormones and diet: low insulin-like growth factor-I but normal bioavailable androgens in vegan men.

[3] Dietary correlates of plasma insulin-like growth factor I and insulin-like growth factor binding protein 3 concentrations.

[4] Dietary changes favorably affect bone remodeling in older adults

[5] Dietary Animal and Plant Protein and Human Bone Health: A Whole Foods Approach.

[6] Genetic approaches to the study of aging.

[7] The GH/IGF-I axis and longevity.

[8] Long-term effects of calorie or protein restriction on serum IGF-1 and IGFBP-3 concentration in humans.

[9] Vertex balding, plasma insulin-like growth factor 1, and insulin-like growth factor binding protein 3..

Also I believe that the secret to aging is protein restriction. Evidence is clear that the lower your intake of protein the lower the amount of free-IGF-1 you have, the scientist believe that this slows the aging process.

I believe this explains why Americans and Westerner literally age faster than Asians or Southern Americans. The difference has to be the diet. Americans are "fortunate" enough to eat meat all three meals of the day, wash it down with soda, and then eat three bowls of ice cream with chocolate syrup. Never in human history has so much meat, processed foods and fat been so available for our careless consumption. Excess of protein will harm the bones and increase free-IGF-1 leading to premature aging. If we keep our food-pyramid contained only to the bottom three boxes, the slower we age, the better we feel, our diseases like high cholesterol, arthritis, osteoporosis, atherosclerosis, diabetes, prostate problems all disappear.

misterE wrote:Also I believe that the secret to aging is protein restriction. Evidence is clear that the lower your intake of protein the lower the amount of free-IGF-1 you have, the scientist believe that this slows the aging process.

I believe this explains why Americans and Westerner literally age faster than Asians or Southern Americans. The difference has to be the diet. Americans are "fortunate" enough to eat meat all three meals of the day, wash it down with soda, and then eat three bowls of ice cream with chocolate syrup. Never in human history has so much meat, processed foods and fat been so available for our careless consumption. Excess of protein will harm the bones and increase free-IGF-1 leading to premature aging. If we keep our food-pyramid contained only to the bottom three boxes, the slower we age, the better we feel, our diseases like high cholesterol, arthritis, osteoporosis, atherosclerosis, diabetes, prostate problems all disappear.

Why do you assume the difference has to be in diet? There are many other possible factors: Stress (i.e. lifestyle), pollutants, medical 'treatment' (e.g. Rx drug overuse), industrialized farming, etc. Not to mention ethnic/genetic differences- most Americans are not Asains. Concluding that animal protein is the reason for "aging faster" is far fetched and convenient to your cause. There are way too many variables.

Also, the China "Study" book is absolutely horrible science. The data is extrapolated to "prove" a vegan diet is best.

It's utter crap.

2] Hormones and diet: low insulin-like growth factor-I but normal bioavailable androgens in vegan men.

. In other multivariate analyses, energy-adjusted fat and carbohydrate intake had no association with IGF-I levels. The most consistent finding was a positive association between protein intake with circulating IGF-I concentration (174, 188, 201, 192, and 196 ng/ml across quintiles of protein intake; P = 0.002), which was largely attributable to milk intake.

[4] Dietary changes favorably affect bone remodeling in older adults

APPLICATIONS/CONCLUSIONS: The changes observed in the calcium economy through consumption of food sources of calcium are similar in kind and extent to those reported previously for calcium supplement tablets. The increase in IGF-1 level and the decrease in IBFBP-4 level are new observations that are beneficial for bone health.

[5] Dietary Animal and Plant Protein and Human Bone Health: A Whole Foods Approach.

Therefore increasing intake of purified proteins from either animal or plant sources similarly increases urinary calcium.... "Excess" dietary protein from either animal or plant proteins may be detrimental to bone health, but its effect will be modified by other nutrients in the food and total diet.

6] Genetic approaches to the study of aging.

Mice with these genetic variants remain healthy, active, and cognitively intact at average ages that correspond to 110-120 years of human life span. Multiple lines of evidence now point to a hormone, IGF-I, as a key influence on life span, with low IGF-I levels associated with extended longevity in multiple model systems.

-Note, it does not say anything about human models, and in a laboratory setting "multiple model systems" is paper writing rhetoric for "more than one, but could be any percentage within total". The paper itself was written to divert funds away from gene therapy and to their own line of study. Learn to read a science paper before you quote one. (All bolds added for emphasis, nothing else was added or changed)

Learn to read the language of a study, these studies explicitly imply correlation, not causation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

Basic principle number one in examining results, taught in the first class you take on the subject, and beat into your head by every scientist on this planet.

The rest of the studies you quote are based on this same model, offering no actual substantial proof of anything outside of mice in a laboratory. many of these studies also deal more with the insulin receptor activity than IGF-1 itself, which could in itself mean that insulin itself could easily be far more to blame for the same effects. There is plenty of legit science that points to lowering insulin as a means of extending life, that much is easy to see. However, let me quote one of my favorite people on this planet, Shelby Starnes:

The high carbohydrate days raise our insulin levels, fill our glycogen stores, keep our metabolism burning efficiently, and stave off muscle catabolism. The low carbohydrate days are the “fat burning days.” They keep insulin levels low enough to allow for maximum fat burning while retaining muscle.

Carb cycling is hardly a new thing in the body building world, but it bears mentioning. It revolves around slamming carbs to spike insulin on heavy workout days, and eating low carb to lower insulin on rest days. carb cycling has more than enough real world proof to be worth taking a look at, should you feel like you need to again tell body builders that theyre going about it all wrong.

With that being said, the question becomes what you would rather have stimulating insulin receptors more, insulin or insulin like growth factor 1? Do you think there is more stimulation of the insulin receptor by IGF-1 than insulin itself? The issue of IGF-1 stimulating insulin receptors is likely tiny compared to insulin stimulating insulin receptors.

Mister E...
This cave painting is old. Much older than the crust in your underwear. Pre-Neolithic.
Man was designed to hunt, kill, and eat meat. There is no flaw in our design.

In my direct experience I highly doubt that there is "one" diet that fits all.

My older relatives all grew up in a very isolated area of Newfoundland, and they ate little to none of the processed foods we find everywhere now. The diet heavily revolved around meat.

My Grandfathers diet consisted of this (alternating on days) -

Breakfast - Organic free range Hen eggs (yum), boiled /fried potatoes, Cod Fish, Brook Trout.

Dinner - Boiled salted Cod Fish, Fried Brook Trout, Boiled Cabbage / turnip / potatoes / carrots (all organically homegrown) / Moose Meat / Rabbit / Caribou / Bear.

Supper - Practically the same damn thing as Dinner.

The diet had a TON of salt in it, where by their primary source of food preservation was either by bottle packing meats or by drying and salting fish.

My grandfathers health astounds me. The man has lived in the most horrid environments, working months at a time in the same clothes deep in the woods cutting trees, being subjected to a disgusting amount of lice and pests. The first time he ever once saw a hospital was when he was in his late sixties, he is now nearly 90 with a full head of hair.

This could be related to his genetics, but it's still interesting to consider that the rest of his health has been absolutely stellar. I feel that there is quite a strong connection between his food choices and his health /hair, his son (my uncle) is the only one of his children with any extensive amount of hair loss... and when looking over my family history and asking a lot of questions I came to find out that the man lives off of Snickers bars, potato chips, and eats cake for breakfast in the morning. He is also the only one of the the four brothers who has other painful health complications such as arthritis, heart troubles, and a slew of other things.

TheFunkyStumpfighter wrote:

With that being said, the question becomes what you would rather have stimulating insulin receptors more, insulin or insulin like growth factor 1? Do you think there is more stimulation of the insulin receptor by IGF-1 than insulin itself? The issue of IGF-1 stimulating insulin receptors is likely tiny compared to insulin stimulating insulin receptors.

Well insulin is supposed to be stimulating the insulin receptor. The problems come when insulin cannot bind to the receptor as is able to travel as free-insulin. When free-insulin arrives at the liver it stimulates the liver to produce free-IGF-1 and less IGFBP-3. Free-IGF-1 is the main regulator of SHBG. When free-IGF-1 is up, SHBG is down. And when SHBG is down, estrogen and DHT are high while testosterone is low.

But what is keeping insulin from entering the cells? The calories consumed in excess of our needs cause us to gain body-fat... this is a natural, expected change. Soon a point is reached when this accumulation becomes counterproductive – a point when any further excess body-fat is likely to cause serious physical harm. When this hazardous excess is reached, the body puts “the brakes on” in order to slow the rate of body-fat gain. This is accomplished by a variety of changes that cause the hormone insulin to become less potent [1] [2]. In other words, our cells become resistant to the actions of the fat-gaining hormone, insulin – a state referred to as “insulin resistance.”

Also the body-fat creates lots of estrogen, which can also block testosterone from binding to the receptor (SHBG) thus increasing the need for DHT to antagonize estrogen from receptor binding. Estrogen seems to increase the intensity of DHT and is even shown to mimic DHT when bound to SHBG [3].


[1] The importance of insulin resistance in the pathogenesis of type 2 diabetes mellitus.

[2] Insulin resistance as the core defect in type 2 diabetes mellitus.

[3] Estradiol Activates the Prostate Androgen Receptor and Prostate-specific Antigen Secretion through the Intermediacy of Sex Hormone-binding Globulin.




[1] The importance of insulin resistance in the pathogenesis of type 2 diabetes mellitus.

[2] Insulin resistance as the core defect in type 2 diabetes mellitus.

CausticSymmetry wrote:Also, the China "Study" book is absolutely horrible science. The data is extrapolated to "prove" a vegan diet is best.

It's utter crap.

+1, it was so bad I put it out with the trash. It had outstanding reviews on Amazon though. Rarely have I ever been more underwhelmed with a purchase. With hindsight most of the reviewers were probably vegans being told what they wanted to hear.

@MisterE- You're still quoting other peoples blurbs as fact, Dr. McDougall to be more precise. I would not exactly call him an unbiased source.

The studies linked, had actually read them rather than just taken someone's word on it, don't prove much of anything beyond obesity causing insulin resistance. Of course, obesity is only one of the things these studies show a correlation to insulin resistance, funny none of those are mentioned by you or Dr. Mcdougall.

Again, correlation, not causation. Dr. McDougall, and you by association as you seem to love quoting his philosophies verbatim, are drawing wide sweeping conclusions based on very controlled and specific data sets. He's trying to promote his product, what is your excuse?

Not only this, but your little copy/paste blurb doesn't for a second address what I was talking about. The former studies made zero mention of adipose tissue in regards to insulin receptor activity, and made zero mention of estrogens from fat needing to be balanced out by increased hormone activity. You really just went out and found a blurb about insulin from a person who makes his living promoting vegetarian health solutions and pasted it figuring it would prove a point. Of course, all you need to do is read the cited studies to see just how far the conclusions he draws need to streeeeeeeeeeetch out. What a joke.

you guys do commit one mistake : you fight if this diet is better or this one, both are good but the question is timing
one needs different food during different part of the day / season / physical condition / activity / age

Mister E

your diet is almost perfect ........ for the parasympathetic nerv syst. In a long term for a healthy individual it is a disaster. This is a perfect diet as the last meal of the day because it swithces you off (PNS, insuline spike). If you eat porridge, quinoa etc 3 times a day you'll get tired, sick, melancholic, lazy and possibly fat (it's what tao would call yin, science slow oxidizing state - btw there are no fast/slow oxidisers per se, it's relative to the part of the day/activity/mental state etc)

the best way i've found and the one i'd swear on (tested on all my friends, family) - and believe me i'm obsessed with diet - is to combine 3 different approaches - once one understand the principles, it's a normal/natural way of eating

1) fasting/detox: raw food
2) food for active/fast oxidising state/SNS (yang) : saturated fat, some veggies (raw - summer, cooked - winter) for HGH and T release (cholesterol is primordial)
3) food to calm you down (PNS), anabolise you (after fasting/high fat phase the IGF_2 concentration in muscles is in its peak), protect your mitochondria and brain (acetylcholine) and the very much important feeling of satiety (pleasure)

this is a perfect way to detox, curtail inflammation, stay active, optimise HGH release, hormones (T especially) up, alkalinity/acidity, etc

in praxis the natural diet would is following

moorning - a piece of fruit /coffee or tea (in winter some seasonal raw green leafs or raddish or whatever one can get typical for his climate) or nothing, just tea or lemon juice - it washes you from inside, makes you alkaline (neccessary for HGH release)

lunch - summer - salad leafs or other raw veggies with saturated fat (liver, lamb, veal), no vegetable oils!, butter (raw), in winter the veggies can be cooked - the best are cruciefeous (A, K, E vit to compensate low vit D levels from the sun) again with saturated fat (more cold season, more active - more sat fat you need) - your T and HGH will go aver the roof, your insuline close to zero - no fatigue, active state, no melancholy that i can read in your eyes
it gives also big muscles/penis/erection/sperm volume

CS is completely right about it - saturated fat is the best/healthiest fuel for you unless you do not mix it with (processed especially) carbs


diner
there comes your diet - carbs, veggies and possibly omega 3 that combine better with carbs - it switches you off

i've tried many diets - zero carbs, raw only, meat only, raw meat only, anabolic diet (Di Pascale), vegan, omega 3 only, warrior, antiestrogenic (Hofmekler) and this one I will follow for the rest of the time

Prague, do you think there is a correct time of day to exercise on this diet? Afternoon, perhaps?

I'll give it a shot and see in a few months. It's very close to what I've found works for me already. The fasting in the morning is definitely what makes me feel the best and gives me the most energy and focus.

albe wrote:Prague, do you think there is a correct time of day to exercise on this diet? Afternoon, perhaps?

I'll give it a shot and see in a few months. It's very close to what I've found works for me already. The fasting in the morning is definitely what makes me feel the best and gives me the most energy and focus.

albe, this is the beauty of this diet - since you undereat during the day and you go close to 0 carbs during the day, you do not know any insuline spikes that make you tired - you can exercise almost whenever - but you're completely right, afternoon is ideal - your loaded with enzymes, HGH, T are high, 0 sugar in the blood, IGF-2 in the muscles, etc - plus the anabolic effect of the carb diner

it's also good thing to go fat/protein diner from time to time (once in a month, 2 weeks, but no counting, just pure instinc - or eating the whole day from time to time if your body feels so)

Prague wrote:you guys do commit one mistake : you fight if this diet is better or this one, both are good but the question is timing
one needs different food during different part of the day / season / physical condition / activity / age

Mister E

your diet is almost perfect ........ for the parasympathetic nerv syst. In a long term for a healthy individual it is a disaster. This is a perfect diet as the last meal of the day because it swithces you off (PNS, insuline spike). If you eat porridge, quinoa etc 3 times a day you'll get tired, sick, melancholic, lazy and possibly fat (it's what tao would call yin, science slow oxidizing state - btw there are no fast/slow oxidisers per se, it's relative to the part of the day/activity/mental state etc)

the best way i've found and the one i'd swear on (tested on all my friends, family) - and believe me i'm obsessed with diet - is to combine 3 different approaches - once one understand the principles, it's a normal/natural way of eating

1) fasting/detox: raw food
2) food for active/fast oxidising state/SNS (yang) : saturated fat, some veggies (raw - summer, cooked - winter) for HGH and T release (cholesterol is primordial)
3) food to calm you down (PNS), anabolise you (after fasting/high fat phase the IGF_2 concentration in muscles is in its peak), protect your mitochondria and brain (acetylcholine) and the very much important feeling of satiety (pleasure)

this is a perfect way to detox, curtail inflammation, stay active, optimise HGH release, hormones (T especially) up, alkalinity/acidity, etc

in praxis the natural diet would is following

moorning - a piece of fruit /coffee or tea (in winter some seasonal raw green leafs or raddish or whatever one can get typical for his climate) or nothing, just tea or lemon juice - it washes you from inside, makes you alkaline (neccessary for HGH release)

lunch - summer - salad leafs or other raw veggies with saturated fat (liver, lamb, veal), no vegetable oils!, butter (raw), in winter the veggies can be cooked - the best are cruciefeous (A, K, E vit to compensate low vit D levels from the sun) again with saturated fat (more cold season, more active - more sat fat you need) - your T and HGH will go aver the roof, your insuline close to zero - no fatigue, active state, no melancholy that i can read in your eyes
it gives also big muscles/penis/erection/sperm volume

CS is completely right about it - saturated fat is the best/healthiest fuel for you unless you do not mix it with (processed especially) carbs


diner
there comes your diet - carbs, veggies and possibly omega 3 that combine better with carbs - it switches you off

i've tried many diets - zero carbs, raw only, meat only, raw meat only, anabolic diet (Di Pascale), vegan, omega 3 only, warrior, antiestrogenic (Hofmekler) and this one I will follow for the rest of the time

Prague,
r u going to write a book for diet approach and other approach for healthy living as well as healthy hair?U have positive experience so we would love to get advantage of it.

redhead

My "life is elsewhere" - to paraphrase one of Kundera's book. If someone asks for it, I try to help (and CS or jdp Ted from Bangkok are true models for me in this aspect) but i won't do more than that. One of the reasons is that i do not know what is good for others, even though i made some very interesting discoveries over the last months - but they're mine (not in a sense i want to keep them for me but i'm not sure (or i'm sure than not) it would work the same for others - and i did some of these mistakes in the past. You can pm whenever, i'll reply - but you know it already.

The summer winter diet. OK. I live in southern california. We loved all the seasons so
much we got rid of the bad ones. It is sunny and 70 almost year round. Summer winter diet. OK. How do I go about this where I live.