Detumescence Therapy- dedicated volunteers wanted

YAER wrote:I totally agree that it can accelerate hair loss. Iv seen it and encountered it. The hair you lose is from the release of lactic acid in your scalp due to you exercising your head. This is why you also lose hair when u workout, the lactic acid is excreted through scalp skin and urine.

Elaborate.

A best candidate for DT is somebody above NW3 in my opinion. I'd been like Kean for more than 10 year time frame. There is a point in life when, if you are carrying the AGA gene, things are escalating exponentially.

I think the thing with Keano is the rest of his hair outside the receded areas looked like normal hair. When you have the hairs on your whole head turn crispy, brittle, greasy and thin like a lot of MPB sufferers do then I think it points to more than just a blood flow issue. It would seem to indicate some sort of massive internal problem probably causing all sorts of issues. DT might still help some but it's still a wonder if it will help in the same way as a simple receder when even the loose parts on the side of the scalp are miniaturizing and oily as fuck in some of the diffusers.

In any case his progress is insane though and if it works like that for even a few people that's pretty awesome.

S Fotte. wrote a very interesting text about swelling and Lymphatic Drainage.

In my opinion it is worth reading, although it is "just" a hypothesis. On page 2 he also mentions DT as a possible technique even although his aproach is a bit different.

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/89751-A-Review-of-MPB-Research

I thought I'd be over the bullshit now, but my hair continues to look worse and worse.

boogv510 wrote:

Keanoseg wrote:"So what do I think? I think that for me, this is effective. I never receded or lost past a certain mark so I think I'm not an objective example "

say what, you went from a nw 2 to nw 3 in 3 months, can you explain to me how you did it because I find it hard to believe. A year ago before dt my hairline was much better than yours in this picture, but Im not even remotely close or having any regrowth.

This is you 3 months ago




Compelxx, what sup, Are you up for it, im pretty broke right now a 100 $ will really help me pay my bills

meant to say you went from a nw 2 to nw 0 in 3 months

Brabus wrote:

I might also try fin + Dt. At this momemt of my life I dont want to take risks, even if I belfieve in the effectiveness of dt

Try not to let things get below a NW3. A NW3 can still look good styled correctly, but once you get past that its an uphill battle, and I am paying the price every day for my indecision. So, knock yourself out with supplements, DT, etc. but I suggest making a commitment to yourself that, if things get to X point, you take the dive. Just my advice though, best of luck to you and hope the drugs sides aren't bad if you get on it. My only negative side is my nipples are almost always erect. Other than that it's given me more aggression, motivation and higher libido and for a passive dude like me floating through life, I'm finally starting to take charge

Only supp I take daily now is 60-90mg zinc to make sure I'm giving my body what it needs to produce the necessary testosterone to make up for the loss of DHT.

Edit: Unrelated to the above post as a whole but I apologize for the bipolar nature of some of my posts. Mpb has caused some paranoia in me so things are very hot and cold, but the truth is I'm more than likely at baseline, than below, but there are days when I freak out and think the opposite but it really depends on how much oil is in my hair, or how dry it is etc... just thought I'd clarify cause I read back and noticed my lack of consistency.

SonofOdin wrote:

Brabus wrote:

I might also try fin + Dt. At this momemt of my life I dont want to take risks, even if I belfieve in the effectiveness of dt

Try not to let things get below a NW3. A NW3 can still look good styled correctly, but once you get past that its an uphill battle, and I am paying the price every day for my indecision. So, knock yourself out with supplements, DT, etc. but I suggest making a commitment to yourself that, if things get to X point, you take the dive. Just my advice though, best of luck to you and hope the drugs sides aren't bad if you get on it. My only negative side is my nipples are almost always erect. Other than that it's given me more aggression, motivation and higher libido and for a passive dude like me floating through life, I'm finally starting to take charge

Only supp I take daily now is 60-90mg zinc to make sure I'm giving my body what it needs to produce the necessary testosterone to make up for the loss of DHT.

Edit: Unrelated to the above post as a whole but I apologize for the bipolar nature of some of my posts. Mpb has caused some paranoia in me so things are very hot and cold, but the truth is I'm more than likely at baseline, than below, but there are days when I freak out and think the opposite but it really depends on how much oil is in my hair, or how dry it is etc... just thought I'd clarify cause I read back and noticed my lack of consistency.

Yes tomorrow I will start with fin, I dont want to take any risk at this point since my temples are pretty bad. The side effects are not even a concern for me, I tried fin for 1 year without any sides.

Regarding DT. its been 1 week im correctly doing the dt (i think). Since then ive no visible hair shedding (on combing, pillow,..) but im still receding.. my guess is because im losing small, miniaturized (less noticable) hair and it will soon become terminal. At least thats what im hoping for.

I simply fail to see how this is gonna be a crystal clear experiment on your part when we won't know what is causing either your shedding or regrowth... but I am curious to see if it works wonders on a loose "cleaned out" scalp

tooyoungforthis wrote:I simply fail to see how this is gonna be a crystal clear experiment on your part when we won't know what is causing either your shedding or regrowth... but I am curious to see if it works wonders on a loose "cleaned out" scalp

I didnt use it yet.. I ordered it online. But you are right and also I dont want to be stuck whole my life with a chemical pill.. i will wait then before using it. I just hope this dt is the cure!!

Also if DT is the cure, it would be the cheapest hair loss cure ever, since you only need your hands but i dont want to yell victory yet, only time will tell.

Hi,

We still don't know what that is, under our skin, that makes our scalps unpinchable and unkneatable.

In my opinion (this is how it feels like, when I try to pinch my skin) there are at least two reasons.

- swelling: I have a very swollen scalp at the ridge at the middle front of my scalp. It is hard to pinch it. 10 min after starting the DT session its getting easier and easier. But the next day it is swollen again (although the whole condition of my scalp is much better than a year ago when I started with DT and is much less swollen) I'm tending to the opinion, that this is Lymphedema. You can do a test: Press hard with one finger the scalp at your forehead (where your hair starts). After 20 sek you release, and you can feel a small crater that is filling with the fluid slowly again. I think the impossibility of lifting the skin at the front ridge of our heads is something simillar to the "Stemmer's Sign"-test

- hard tissue: At the middle back of my head (vertex and the area between forehead and vertex) my Scalp is now less thick than at the beginning of DT a year ago. And I feel, that underneath the thin layers of skin, there is some hard tissue, that I'm able to break through a massage. Once it is broken, I can pinch my scalp easily. And the stiffness of my scalp is not coming back the day after (as the swelling described above in the forehead). I think, that this could be fibrotic tissue (that is already documented in some studies). Some are arguing that this is calcification. But the imprtant thing is: You can break this up - And now I'm able to pinch & knead most of my scalp with the fingers of only one hand - only except 2 cm along the ridge in the middle top. But I'm working my way up and is incomparable to one year ago, when I wasn't able to pinch the scalp at the top at all.


So it seems to me, that there is more, than one reason, why our scalp feels so thick, swollen and inflammed. I'm describing the effects that I observe. I don't describe the reasons, which can be elevated DHT, inflammation etc. Please read this interesting thesis:
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/89751-A-Review-of-MPB-Research



In my understanding MPB is a desease that speedups itself. i.e. chronic inflammation > fibrosis > leads to more chronic inflammation.
The described observation fits exactly in this pattern. chronic inflammation leads to more lymph fluids in the scalp, but if they are trapped there (through fibrosis and stiff tissue) they build up a pressure that lead to inflammation and to the forming of scar tissue again. (This is the reason why you make lymph massage BEFORE operations to reduce the lymph fluid pressure which could lead to scarring)
So it seems to me, that chronic inflammation / fibrosis / increased lymph fluid pressure in scalp is a vicious cycle that speeds up itself!



I think, that massage could be a way to break through this feedback cycle.
Since I started DT a year ago, my scalp is less swollen (although I still have the described problem above), my scalp doesn't itch anymore, I have less ekzema and less inflammation. But we still have a Problem:

If we massage hard and destroy the fobrotic tissue we lead to small acute inflammation and to the creation of new tissue. This is good. But of course this also leads to an increase of lymph fluids to wash this waste away. But if this happens in an already swollen tissue we also increase the lymph pressure which is counterproductive, as described above and in the thesis of S Foote, that I linked.



So the question is. Is there a better way to massage?

In a perfect world I would first try to massage the high pressure of the lymphomatic fluids away, before I massage the fibrotic tissue which then leads to more lymph fluids again. Of course this is impossible, as we can't do the one without the other.

But it is not by accident, that most of us start DT by pinching the sides and are working their way up during DT.

This is, what I'm doing since one week. And it helps me. I'm massagin my lymph nodes first. All of them in the face with lightly circle movements.
http://www.nashvillemassagebodyworkreiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/lymphatic.png
After that, I try tp "push" down the fluids underneath the skin down my forehead and at the sides. I'm pressing really hard. After doing this a few times the ridge at my forehead is less swollen. You can do the test with the finger-press that I described above. The crater isn't as deep after you "pushed" the lymph fluids away from the swollen area.
Now I wait a bit and start with DT. And here the "miracle" comes. Suddenly it is very easy to pinch the part of my ridge at my forehead! Well - it is no miracle. It just makes perfect sense, that it is easier to pinch skin, that is not full of lymph fluids.

Perhaps this method can help to make faster steps in having a healthy, fully pinchable, kneatable scalp without inflammation! But don't excpect hair to grow immediately. First we need a healthy scalp. Then - some years later, perhaps - hair could come back...

I used to do lymphatic massage to drain the fluid from my face becasue I used to have pretty bad water retention, you can actually feel it working, pretty kool stuff. I never done it with dt tho, but now I will.

fghjfghj wrote:Hi,

We still don't know what that is, under our skin, that makes our scalps unpinchable and unkneatable.

In my opinion (this is how it feels like, when I try to pinch my skin) there are at least two reasons.

- swelling: I have a very swollen scalp at the ridge at the middle front of my scalp. It is hard to pinch it. 10 min after starting the DT session its getting easier and easier. But the next day it is swollen again (although the whole condition of my scalp is much better than a year ago when I started with DT and is much less swollen) I'm tending to the opinion, that this is Lymphedema. You can do a test: Press hard with one finger the scalp at your forehead (where your hair starts). After 20 sek you release, and you can feel a small crater that is filling with the fluid slowly again. I think the impossibility of lifting the skin at the front ridge of our heads is something simillar to the "Stemmer's Sign"-test

- hard tissue: At the middle back of my head (vertex and the area between forehead and vertex) my Scalp is now less thick than at the beginning of DT a year ago. And I feel, that underneath the thin layers of skin, there is some hard tissue, that I'm able to break through a massage. Once it is broken, I can pinch my scalp easily. And the stiffness of my scalp is not coming back the day after (as the swelling described above in the forehead). I think, that this could be fibrotic tissue (that is already documented in some studies). Some are arguing that this is calcification. But the imprtant thing is: You can break this up - And now I'm able to pinch & knead most of my scalp with the fingers of only one hand - only except 2 cm along the ridge in the middle top. But I'm working my way up and is incomparable to one year ago, when I wasn't able to pinch the scalp at the top at all.


So it seems to me, that there is more, than one reason, why our scalp feels so thick, swollen and inflammed. I'm describing the effects that I observe. I don't describe the reasons, which can be elevated DHT, inflammation etc. Please read this interesting thesis:
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/89751-A-Review-of-MPB-Research



In my understanding MPB is a desease that speedups itself. i.e. chronic inflammation > fibrosis > leads to more chronic inflammation.
The described observation fits exactly in this pattern. chronic inflammation leads to more lymph fluids in the scalp, but if they are trapped there (through fibrosis and stiff tissue) they build up a pressure that lead to inflammation and to the forming of scar tissue again. (This is the reason why you make lymph massage BEFORE operations to reduce the lymph fluid pressure which could lead to scarring)
So it seems to me, that chronic inflammation / fibrosis / increased lymph fluid pressure in scalp is a vicious cycle that speeds up itself!



I think, that massage could be a way to break through this feedback cycle.
Since I started DT a year ago, my scalp is less swollen (although I still have the described problem above), my scalp doesn't itch anymore, I have less ekzema and less inflammation. But we still have a Problem:

If we massage hard and destroy the fobrotic tissue we lead to small acute inflammation and to the creation of new tissue. This is good. But of course this also leads to an increase of lymph fluids to wash this waste away. But if this happens in an already swollen tissue we also increase the lymph pressure which is counterproductive, as described above and in the thesis of S Foote, that I linked.



So the question is. Is there a better way to massage?

In a perfect world I would first try to massage the high pressure of the lymphomatic fluids away, before I massage the fibrotic tissue which then leads to more lymph fluids again. Of course this is impossible, as we can't do the one without the other.

But it is not by accident, that most of us start DT by pinching the sides and are working their way up during DT.

This is, what I'm doing since one week. And it helps me. I'm massagin my lymph nodes first. All of them in the face with lightly circle movements.
http://www.nashvillemassagebodyworkreiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/lymphatic.png
After that, I try tp "push" down the fluids underneath the skin down my forehead and at the sides. I'm pressing really hard. After doing this a few times the ridge at my forehead is less swollen. You can do the test with the finger-press that I described above. The crater isn't as deep after you "pushed" the lymph fluids away from the swollen area.
Now I wait a bit and start with DT. And here the "miracle" comes. Suddenly it is very easy to pinch the part of my ridge at my forehead! Well - it is no miracle. It just makes perfect sense, that it is easier to pinch skin, that is not full of lymph fluids.

Perhaps this method can help to make faster steps in having a healthy, fully pinchable, kneatable scalp without inflammation! But don't excpect hair to grow immediately. First we need a healthy scalp. Then - some years later, perhaps - hair could come back...

Excellent post, this is why some people need several transplants/transplant don't last/need to take fin+minox. Scalp evnvrionemnt is key and overall general posture can play a hug role as well.

Bowen therapy could help with Lymphedema tremendously btw....

My hair continues to get worse and worse. What's the deal?

Growdamnit wrote:My hair continues to get worse and worse. What's the deal?

More factors involved then just a tight scalp!

i guess the deal is the people who think they are getting results either:


are seeing miniturizing hairs which do grow bigger, but fall out and are replaced by smaller hairs each cycle;

dont have mpb in the first place;

or are shills.

But i hope i am proven wrong.

Listen up. I have pertinent information that I think you need to make this work. First, I better explain some things.

I have not read this board in a very long time and I'm not starting tonight either. If you don't know who I am, I had great success with this over the course of an entire year. When I left, I had promised to return with final pictures. I had also found myself at that time defending myself over and over from jackasses who wanted nothing to do with this but still wanted to show up and disrupt everything over and over again, even though I had constantly showed the progress I had made. Not long after my last post, I decided that I did not want to do anything that would convince these tools to give this a try. In my opinion, I had laid enough groundwork that those that really wanted would continue to carry the ball and I never came back. Didn't miss it one bit.

So I continued to have my hair fill in for months afterward and I thought I had it. And then, without realizing it, I began to slack off and I actually dropped part of my routine and even forgot I did it. I continued to pinch a bit and move the skin back and forth with my fingers. I didn't even realize I was starting to go backwards for some time, even though I was seeing it. I can't explain my ignorance at that time. I only see it in hindsight. During that time I would brush my hair out at night and the sink would display all kinds of hairs each day but only the 3" ones and not the very long hairs that I have. I don't even know how long this went on for before it was apparent in the mirror I was losing what I had gained. I started to pinch more and move my skin more and for another month I continued to lose. I'm going to say I had lost about 50% of all gains until one day I realized I had dropped a certain thing without realizing all that time ago.

Late November I remembered and started back doing it and maybe just maybe this is a key move because this weekend I was able to see and feel with my fingertips new hairs coming back once again. I had stopped pressing down with my fingers and pushing the skin into itself. Pressing into the skin and pushing it up toward the top of your head until it bunched into itself, folding itself up. Kneading I guess. It seems to be key. You can feel even by doing it that it is the bigger weapon. As soon as I remembered to do it, I had an idea it might be what sent me backward and now the results have begun to return.

Good news: At least for myself in my own opinion, I believe I have found what might make this work. Torquing the skin to force blood in and DHT/waste out.
Bad news: Lifetime commitment of maintenance to keep what you gain or it leaves and shockingly fast, in my case, over a few months.

Finding this thread still active and near the top was good to see. Hopefully some other successes in there. What I just posted I believe to be of importance. Do with it what you will.

Nice to see you back. I think also that's the key: the pinching, not pressing hard the scalp with the fingers. As a coincidence, I have this revelation...yesterday
Another important thing is to hold every pinch for 30 seconds, at least.

fghjfghj wrote:

So it seems to me, that there is more, than one reason, why our scalp feels so thick, swollen and inflammed. I'm describing the effects that I observe. I don't describe the reasons, which can be elevated DHT, inflammation etc. Please read this interesting thesis:
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/89751-A-Review-of-MPB-Research

interesting quote from the link

"Balding Hairs Grow Long and Thick on Immunodeficient Mice"

Because immunodeficient mice do not reject foreign tissues, they will accept transplants of human hairs that can then be studied. We transplanted both miniaturized and normal hair follicles from scalp affected by common balding. Our study found that miniaturized hair follicles can quickly regenerate once removed from the human scalp; in fact they grew as well as or better than the transplanted normal, non-balding hair follicles as assessed by their diameter and length achieved at 22 weeks.

so basically this means if the environment around the follicle is better it regenerates. fascinating stuff

For gods sake, just admit it doesnt work.

drex1999 wrote:Listen up. I have pertinent information that I think you need to make this work. First, I better explain some things.

I have not read this board in a very long time and I'm not starting tonight either. If you don't know who I am, I had great success with this over the course of an entire year. When I left, I had promised to return with final pictures. I had also found myself at that time defending myself over and over from jackasses who wanted nothing to do with this but still wanted to show up and disrupt everything over and over again, even though I had constantly showed the progress I had made. Not long after my last post, I decided that I did not want to do anything that would convince these tools to give this a try. In my opinion, I had laid enough groundwork that those that really wanted would continue to carry the ball and I never came back. Didn't miss it one bit.

So I continued to have my hair fill in for months afterward and I thought I had it. And then, without realizing it, I began to slack off and I actually dropped part of my routine and even forgot I did it. I continued to pinch a bit and move the skin back and forth with my fingers. I didn't even realize I was starting to go backwards for some time, even though I was seeing it. I can't explain my ignorance at that time. I only see it in hindsight. During that time I would brush my hair out at night and the sink would display all kinds of hairs each day but only the 3" ones and not the very long hairs that I have. I don't even know how long this went on for before it was apparent in the mirror I was losing what I had gained. I started to pinch more and move my skin more and for another month I continued to lose. I'm going to say I had lost about 50% of all gains until one day I realized I had dropped a certain thing without realizing all that time ago.

Late November I remembered and started back doing it and maybe just maybe this is a key move because this weekend I was able to see and feel with my fingertips new hairs coming back once again. I had stopped pressing down with my fingers and pushing the skin into itself. Pressing into the skin and pushing it up toward the top of your head until it bunched into itself, folding itself up. Kneading I guess. It seems to be key. You can feel even by doing it that it is the bigger weapon. As soon as I remembered to do it, I had an idea it might be what sent me backward and now the results have begun to return.

Good news: At least for myself in my own opinion, I believe I have found what might make this work. Torquing the skin to force blood in and DHT/waste out.
Bad news: Lifetime commitment of maintenance to keep what you gain or it leaves and shockingly fast, in my case, over a few months.

Finding this thread still active and near the top was good to see. Hopefully some other successes in there. What I just posted I believe to be of importance. Do with it what you will.

so you don't have a full head of hair and back to square one? Great.....

Hey guys, I’ve been inactively following this thread, and would like to share a few ideas. I don’t mean to be disrespectful to anyone (the thread is already quite full of conflict instead of healthy debate) so please hear me out before making judgments.
Also, I have little understanding of the biology underlying hair loss, so feel free to correct any mistakes that come out of my own ignorance.


First off,
You can notice a few patterns if you go through the entire thread:

At the beginning of the thread, the consensus revolving the DT technique seemed to be Drexx’s vigorous pressing. Some guys reported good results and others reported massive shedding.

Later, Keane provided his pinching technique and suggested resting the scalp before the subsequent massage. It seems a few more guys started also reporting good results.

What is interesting about these propositions is that the original article (although very vague, especially on instructions) presented demonstration pictures that suggest finger pinching is the right way, as opposed to Drexx’s finger pressing (Figure 4 (a)).


What is surprising to me is that, in the entire thread, a lot of details described in the original article have been ignored:

“This head shape is obtained after flattening the head shape by massage with finger press daily and heavily. We did a statistical investigation about 100 peope (Table 3). For all people initially belongs to Case 1, they have no hair. The skin (scalp) is thick (18 mm~24 mm) and hard (Durometer scale A reading: ~100). It is suggested to be much grease trapped in the hair follicle blocking the nutrient. After receiving a daily massage of 150 days with finger press, their scalps have been transformed and belonged to Case 2. Their head skin was thinner (11 mm~17 mm) and softer (Durometer scale a reading: ~75). Some grease trapped in the hair follicle leaves the head. Some hair is found to regrow on these thinner and softer skin patche regions. After receiving a daily massage of another 150 days with a heavier finger press (Case 3), their head skins have become much thinner (4 mm~10 mm) and softer (Durometer scale A reading: ~50). Almost all grease trapped in their hair follicle leaves the head.”

The first bolded sentence indicates that the massage should be vigorous, but it does not make explicit that the scalp should be handled roughly enough to cause strong irritation.

The second and third bolded sentences suggest that the mechanical handling of the scalp should be done with gradual increase of pressure, as opposed to rough, heavy massage from the start (in other words, massage should not be as vigorous during the first 5 months of therapy).


To me it seems like Drexx’s finger pressing might have been too rough on the scalp in relation to moderate finger pinching (as formulated by Keane). Frequent heavy massage at the starting stage of treatment could have produced constant acute inflammation of the scalp.

I don’t know if constant acute inflammation has any distinction from chronic inflammation or whether both produce the same response of the body. If so, according to Xenox’s arguments, the constant inflammation might have been counterproductive to some guys, causing further hair shedding and/or miniaturization.


I propose that, in the period during which Drexx’s technique was dominant, individuals who were already used to manuals could handle greater massage pressure due to fact that their scalps were already used to stress and responded well to it, and therefore managed to get good results.

Those who did not practice manuals prior to the therapy might have (following other DT’ers advice) applied too much pressure, overly irritating their scalps and producing bad results.
(To active DT’ers, please correct me if these observations are invalid according to your own experiences)

The process would be similar to overbrushing or weight overtraining. These might be bad analogies but help get the point that "it is possible to have too much of a good thing be a problem” across.

It may also be possible that prolonged incorrect technique generates a vicious circle of hair loss, since the DT’er creates a habit of always using excessive pressure during handling of the scalp, perpetuating acute inflammation without enough recovery and therefore generating constant shedding.


In conclusion, it seems to me that the therapy is divided into two stages:
• First 5 months: Moderate pressure massage (as described in the article). Probably the main goal is to generate a looser scalp and allow it to adapt to the heavier massage (while avoiding constant inflammation).
Note: even moderate massage produces the “grease“ secretion, but perhaps this is not the main goal of the first stage of therapy and it is the reason why the second stage produces greater results, as claimed by the study.

• Second 5 months: Heavier massage for “grease” removal.


This is all speculation and it assumes that the paper is solid and that conditions of baldness have a causal relation to “grease” accumulation in the scalp. But if it is correct, shedding during the first stage could be minimized by gradual massage.

Also wanted to point out that the paper suggests how to prevent hair loss:
“The applied pressure loading on the head during sleeping in bed (Figure 5) is believed to be a preventive measure for the bending/thickening/hardening of human scalps in daily growth.”

Looking further for hearing your thoughts on this, Keanoseg and Xenox.