Fasting and Intermittent Fasting Advice

CausticSymmetry wrote:

Personally, I eat only once per day. However, load up on the food all at once.  Excessive eating or frequent eating keeps inflammation going.

When you say you eat once a day, what time is that at?
Thanks

Elmo, it doesn't really matter what time you select. There are a couple of factors that could help you select a feeding window though. For me, I obviously don't like to do it at breakfast time. Just constitutionally I've never been really driven to eat breakfast anyway and I figure I am after the mental acuity benefits for the portion of my day where I'm at work or trying to get some studying in. So that rules out early and late morning. On the other side of the day, I don't believe we should be eating too close to sleep either. This may not apply to everyone's experience but I've found that my sleep quality drops quite a bit if my belly is stuffed - although I'm sure this all depends on things like metabolic type as well. I usually like to give myself about four hours between my last meal and bedtime. If I hit the hay at 10:00 pm, for example, I don't want to be eating much past 6:00. So now we've got a window to start narrowing things down. If I'm aiming for 18 hours of fasting, I'm going to be eating somewhere between the hours of noon and six. If I'm going for a 20 hour fast, then its between 2:00 and 6:00.

Within those ranges, try to cram the majority of your food in after your exercise. Let's say you are working out at 1:00 pm. Try to get a meal post-workout - almost immediately after the workout. Then give yourself an hour or an hour-and-a-half and have another meal containing the rest of your day's food. So if your workout gets over with at 2:00, this might look like a meal at 2:30 and another at 3:30 or 4:00. So you see its not so much about being accurate to the minute, moreso about getting it within a defined window of time and trying to do it after your period of highest activity of the day. Technically, you could have a feeding window occurring later in the day. A lot of people work until 4:00-5:00, so they may select to have their window from 5:00 to 10:00. If that's what works for them, that's fine. The thing about this thats good is it can be customized this way and tailored to fit your personal schedule. I like my feeding window a bit earlier, like I said, but whatever works is what you do. Don't get caught up in minutia. Focus on big picture, small steps, just getting started and doing it.

And to reiterate what's been said before, unless you are specifically trying to diet down, do not eat less than your normal maintenance level of calories. This may feel like eating too much at first, since you are doing it in 1 or 2 meals in close intervals. It may feel like a lot of food. But remember, your body requires those calories for maintenance and all of its daily upkeep. The thermodynamic principles are all still there. If you are eating at a maintenance calorie level, you'll maintain. There isn't any evidence that how you space those calories apart (whether its in spread out meals or all in one) has any real effect. So make sure you are eating. If your goal is weight loss, my advice would still be to eat at around your maintenance calorie level because the effect of this new meal timing might cause your body comp to change in and of itself. Give it a while to get used to the routine, and if you don't like where your body fat levels are after that, then you can begin experimenting with doing it at a caloric deficit. But again, eating in this style might regulate your hormones in such a way that your body fat will drop anyway. Plus, if you are doing a fasted workout right before your feeding window opens, I guarantee you'll see bodyfat drop off without even adjusting your normal caloric intake. Fasted workouts blow.

ElmoSuper8 - I second AS54, on the time being not really important....I would suggest when your body says it is time.

I should mention though that some people cannot handle the once per day routine if the style of food they eat is not conducive.

To answer your question though, generally I eat in the late afternoon.

From a hair perspective it is not necessary for me to eat this way. I only do it to help maintain weight and increase energy.

Because when I eat, whether it is once or twice per day (sometimes I'll eat twice), I'll prepare with supplements to blunt whatever pro-inflammatory effects may occur.

AS54 wrote:Elmo, it doesn't really matter what time you select. There are a couple of factors that could help you select a feeding window though. For me, I obviously don't like to do it at breakfast time. Just constitutionally I've never been really driven to eat breakfast anyway and I figure I am after the mental acuity benefits for the portion of my day where I'm at work or trying to get some studying in. So that rules out early and late morning. On the other side of the day, I don't believe we should be eating too close to sleep either. This may not apply to everyone's experience but I've found that my sleep quality drops quite a bit if my belly is stuffed - although I'm sure this all depends on things like metabolic type as well. I usually like to give myself about four hours between my last meal and bedtime. If I hit the hay at 10:00 pm, for example, I don't want to be eating much past 6:00. So now we've got a window to start narrowing things down. If I'm aiming for 18 hours of fasting, I'm going to be eating somewhere between the hours of noon and six. If I'm going for a 20 hour fast, then its between 2:00 and 6:00.

Within those ranges, try to cram the majority of your food in after your exercise. Let's say you are working out at 1:00 pm. Try to get a meal post-workout - almost immediately after the workout. Then give yourself an hour or an hour-and-a-half and have another meal containing the rest of your day's food. So if your workout gets over with at 2:00, this might look like a meal at 2:30 and another at 3:30 or 4:00. So you see its not so much about being accurate to the minute, moreso about getting it within a defined window of time and trying to do it after your period of highest activity of the day. Technically, you could have a feeding window occurring later in the day. A lot of people work until 4:00-5:00, so they may select to have their window from 5:00 to 10:00. If that's what works for them, that's fine. The thing about this thats good is it can be customized this way and tailored to fit your personal schedule. I like my feeding window a bit earlier, like I said, but whatever works is what you do. Don't get caught up in minutia. Focus on big picture, small steps, just getting started and doing it.

And to reiterate what's been said before, unless you are specifically trying to diet down, do not eat less than your normal maintenance level of calories. This may feel like eating too much at first, since you are doing it in 1 or 2 meals in close intervals. It may feel like a lot of food. But remember, your body requires those calories for maintenance and all of its daily upkeep. The thermodynamic principles are all still there. If you are eating at a maintenance calorie level, you'll maintain. There isn't any evidence that how you space those calories apart (whether its in spread out meals or all in one) has any real effect. So make sure you are eating. If your goal is weight loss, my advice would still be to eat at around your maintenance calorie level because the effect of this new meal timing might cause your body comp to change in and of itself. Give it a while to get used to the routine, and if you don't like where your body fat levels are after that, then you can begin experimenting with doing it at a caloric deficit. But again, eating in this style might regulate your hormones in such a way that your body fat will drop anyway. Plus, if you are doing a fasted workout right before your feeding window opens, I guarantee you'll see bodyfat drop off without even adjusting your normal caloric intake. Fasted workouts blow.

ASS4 thanks for your advice. To be honest I'm at a very low point. I really tried very hard to adjust my diet - cutting out wheat, butter, cheese, sugar and it has done nothing for my hair loss and scalp inflammation has increased. But to add insult to injury I have gone from my normal weight of between 140 - 147 pounds to 119 -126 pounds which is absolutely pathetic ; I'm a walking skeleton and I'm completely lacking in energy.

I think I've gone in to this diet change with a total lack of understanding of nutritional values - calories etc. I think i'll have to start looking up foods and calories and planning my meals. I want to do whatever is healthy with regards to insulin/ hair but I also need to get back up 140 pounds, and I have a tiny budget for food so its very hard.

CausticSymmetry wrote: I'll prepare with supplements to blunt whatever pro-inflammatory effects may occur.

What supplements are best to blunt the pro-inflammatory effects?

I'm taking a lot of supplements in blind faith, I dont even know when I should be taking them or in what groupings so that absorption of each can be assured. Maybe you could give me feed back on my list some time?

ElmoSuper8 wrote:

CausticSymmetry wrote: I'll prepare with supplements to blunt whatever pro-inflammatory effects may occur.

What supplements are best to blunt the pro-inflammatory effects?

I'm taking a lot of supplements in blind faith, I dont even know when I should be taking them or in what groupings so that absorption of each can be assured. Maybe you could give me feed back on my list some time?

Personally I would probably feel ill if I went without butter or diary or sugar (really). However, everyone is different. I never pay any attention to calories.

My signature contains what I take supplement wise. When I give advice though, it requires an in-depth conversation that typically lasts for one to two hours before I can provide what is going to help with someone's hair.

In truth, diet is secondary to my attack on hair loss, which as been solved for me for several years now. Even an all juicing diet didn't have an effect.

However, diet modification does help some people and in my opinion there are some things that are worth avoiding. For me those are anything partially hydrogenated. I consume a lot of HFCS (I don't think it's as bad as regular sugar). I generally keep my grain consumption very low, but not completely. Some people benefit from some types of dairy. It depends on the type and the person of course. Experimentation is key.

CS, I'm puzzled that you would consume a lot of HFCS. Doesn't it contribute to insulin resistance?
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/03/24/why-highfructose-corn-syrup-causes-insulin-resistance.aspx

Personallly, I use xylitol for sweetening, and sometimes honey.

Delphine wrote:
CS, I'm puzzled that you would consume a lot of HFCS.  Doesn't it contribute to insulin resistance?  
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/03/24/why-highfructose-corn-syrup-causes-insulin-resistance.aspx

Personally, I use xylitol for sweetening, and sometimes honey.

In past threads I've ripped on Mercola for using rat science to demonize HFCS. It is superior to table sugar, however
there is a limit or diminishing returns depending on how much exercise and the amount consumed.

Human fructose metabolism largely differs from rat metabolism on HFCS.

So given the choice, a small amount of fructose is going to cause less problems than table sugar.

Xylitol is great though. No problem with it.

Mercola isn't the only one. Dr. Mark Hyman makes a strong argument against HFCS as well.
http://drhyman.com/blog/2011/05/13/5-reasons-high-fructose-corn-syrup-will-kill-you/

I certainly agree that fructose is fine in moderation, but HFCS is a different animal.  For one thing, it is from corn, and as we know,
most corn these days is GMO.  I would assume HFCS isn't organic.

Another consideration brought up in one of the comments on Hyman's article:

I also keep honey bees and lately have read that HFCS may be one of the culprits in Colony Collapse, a major problem in the USA. Many of the big time beekeeping operations feed HFCS to their bees to cut costs and it is causing problems with poor nutrition and lower resistance to pesticides. HFCS is not good for any living thing. It is made using genetically engineered bacteria to break down the molecules in corn starch into single molecules which make syrup. It is an unstable compound that has no place in a nutritional diet. It is a powerful Corn lobby that keeps such a dangerous substance in the diet of our children and now honey bees. Two living things who will eat any sweet substance provided to them.

I am in agreement with most of your views CS,  but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

both food restriction and intermittent feeding increase ROS release from insulin-sensitive tissues, while CR lowers this release (Cerqueira et al., 2011a). Since these diets also increase the activity of NOSs, ONOO− formation under these conditions is expected to increase. Indeed, enhanced ROS release observed in intermittent feeding associated with higher levels of NO• promoted by this diet (Nisoli et al., 2005) lead to significant nitration (a modification mediated by ONOO−) and protein functional loss (Cerqueira et al., 2011a).Overall, these results indicate that, while increased NO• signaling promoted by CR, which is associated with low levels of O2 •− formation, is beneficial, increased NO• in the presence of enhanced ROS release such as intermittent feeding is not. <- Extremely interesting! This means intermittent fasting MUST include efforts to reduce ROS release

http://www.gymnation.co.nz/forum/diet-nutrition/mitochondrial-metabolism-aging

You need to make sure you have a good antioxidant intake if you want to do fasting (or you can supplement GliSODin/ecklonia cava).

Like Mikael's advice above. The r-lipoic acid and acetyl l-carnitine combination works well as an antioxidant and inflammatory. I think good ole vitamin C is probably my absolute favorite antioxidant to take with food, however. A gram right after a meal is great. In a fasting state, I also like using a BCAA product as it aids in gluconeogenesis and helps keep energy levels more balanced. During a fast, I don't take the RLA/ALCAR combination. The fast itself is having a huge impact on my insulin sensitivity. I use this latter combination after a large meal or after meals on cheat days that are particularly bad.

Elmo,

More than likely you aren't getting proper nutrition. Food amount and nutrition are related but separate variables. Like I said before, I would not focus on creating a caloric deficit at all, especially with this new information. Eat. But what you are going to want to focus on is nutrient and energy density. Fats like coconut oil, olive oil, butter from pasture-raised livestock. These oils are high in energy. They are also dense in fat soluble nutrition especially the vitamins which our food supply is in short supply of. Things like quality meat, good fruit, good oils, a moderate amount of safe starches. These are the types of foods you should be focusing on. But the point has been raised before that the modern food supply, which is just continuing to centralize, is being depleted of essential nutrition by synthetic agricultural practices. Its very difficult - without a big wallet - to consistently eat truly quality food. If you're able to grow it, wonderful. But that still makes it difficult to get quality forms of all of the food categories, especially hormone-free livestock. So we supplement the needed minerals that are lacking in the diet.

And on the subject of HFCS, its all an issue of context. Purely. Most of the studies done on HFCS, the rodent ones, are ignoring the effects of the combination of HFCS with the other macros in the diet. They feed these animals HFCS and then some corn starch based puff cereal and wonder why they have the effects they do. HFCS will have different effects on the fat profiles in an animal based on many different factors, namely the activity level, insulin sensitivity, and other dietary components. HFCS is bad when combined with a high fat content in the diet. We do not need the meals most Westerners consistently have which are high in both refined sugar and fat, and just entirely too energy dense. That's what causes insulin resistance. But if you instead learn to look at these substances like "energy tools", they can be combined in such ways, and in combination with lifestyle elements that can actually leave them neutral or even beneficial. Its about the entire context. And then sometimes, we just cheat on our diets because its pleasurable and self-destruction can be a rewarding life experience haha.

AS54 wrote: Elmo,

More than likely you aren't getting proper nutrition.

yeah, I've been only getting half the calories I need sono surprise I've lost weight really; its just that its hard to get those calories having cut out wheat, cheese, butter. I'm going to re-introduce butter though.

What do you think of goose fat? Is it OK or could it be detrimental to hair? Here are the stats -

More than likely you aren't getting proper nutrition.

Also, maybe I should be taking a weight gainer shake to help with calories. Do you know of one with ingredients that are OK for hair?

AS54 wrote:
And on the subject of HFCS, its all an issue of context. Purely. Most of the studies done on HFCS, the rodent ones, are ignoring the effects of the combination of HFCS with the other macros in the diet. They feed these animals HFCS and then some corn starch based puff cereal and wonder why they have the effects they do. HFCS will have different effects on the fat profiles in an animal based on many different factors, namely the activity level, insulin sensitivity, and other dietary components. HFCS is bad when combined with a high fat content in the diet. We do not need the meals most Westerners consistently have which are high in both refined sugar and fat, and just entirely too energy dense. That's what causes insulin resistance. But if you instead learn to look at these substances like "energy tools", they can be combined in such ways, and in combination with lifestyle elements that can actually leave them neutral or even beneficial. Its about the entire context. And then sometimes, we just cheat on our diets because its pleasurable and self-destruction can be a rewarding life experience haha.

I personally can't get past the fact that it is from GMO corn, thus associated with Monsanto and all that goes with that corporation

Delphine wrote:

AS54 wrote:
And on the subject of HFCS, its all an issue of context. Purely. Most of the studies done on HFCS, the rodent ones, are ignoring the effects of the combination of HFCS with the other macros in the diet. They feed these animals HFCS and then some corn starch based puff cereal and wonder why they have the effects they do. HFCS will have different effects on the fat profiles in an animal based on many different factors, namely the activity level, insulin sensitivity, and other dietary components. HFCS is bad when combined with a high fat content in the diet. We do not need the meals most Westerners consistently have which are high in both refined sugar and fat, and just entirely too energy dense. That's what causes insulin resistance. But if you instead learn to look at these substances like "energy tools", they can be combined in such ways, and in combination with lifestyle elements that can actually leave them neutral or even beneficial. Its about the entire context. And then sometimes, we just cheat on our diets because its pleasurable and self-destruction can be a rewarding life experience haha.

I personally can't get past the fact that it is from GMO corn, thus associated with Monsanto and all that goes with that corporation

F*ck Monsanto.

hiilikeyourbeard wrote:

Delphine wrote:

AS54 wrote:
And on the subject of HFCS, its all an issue of context. Purely. Most of the studies done on HFCS, the rodent ones, are ignoring the effects of the combination of HFCS with the other macros in the diet. They feed these animals HFCS and then some corn starch based puff cereal and wonder why they have the effects they do. HFCS will have different effects on the fat profiles in an animal based on many different factors, namely the activity level, insulin sensitivity, and other dietary components. HFCS is bad when combined with a high fat content in the diet. We do not need the meals most Westerners consistently have which are high in both refined sugar and fat, and just entirely too energy dense. That's what causes insulin resistance. But if you instead learn to look at these substances like "energy tools", they can be combined in such ways, and in combination with lifestyle elements that can actually leave them neutral or even beneficial. Its about the entire context. And then sometimes, we just cheat on our diets because its pleasurable and self-destruction can be a rewarding life experience haha.

I personally can't get past the fact that it is from GMO corn, thus associated with Monsanto and all that goes with that corporation

F*ck Monsanto.

That's what I say.

ElmoSuper8 wrote:

AS54 wrote: Elmo,

More than likely you aren't getting proper nutrition.

yeah, I've been only getting half the calories I need sono surprise I've lost weight really; its just that its hard to get those calories having cut out wheat, cheese, butter. I'm going to re-introduce butter though.

What do you think of goose fat? Is it OK or could it be detrimental to hair? Here are the stats -

More than likely you aren't getting proper nutrition.

Also, maybe I should be taking a weight gainer shake to help with calories. Do you know of one with ingredients that are OK for hair?

Load up on saturated fat. It's pro-hair. Just be sure to include krill or fish oil.

Delphine - I used to buy Mercola's anti-HFCS argument until I experimented on myself and also researched it on humans. It's quite a difference.

I think it's all about the dose. Since HFCS is in everything and I eat out frequently I have to manage it accordingly. Even Mercola admits it's okay within about 20 to 25 grams.

From a hair growth point of view, I think HFCS beats sugar by a mile.

This is because of insulin signalling. Having said that, I've been promoting the use Lipoic Acid and Acetyl L-Carnitine since 2004 and I've never stopped taking it. It allows some license to eat garbage, which is unavoidable if one eats out.

Ah, I get it now CS. I was thinking you were choosing to take in HFCS. Now I remember you've posted before
that you eat out a lot. I guess you have a busy social life. . And yes, the dose makes the poison.

I mostly eat at home now, but I've certainly eaten my share of restaurant food, especially in the last couple of years. I think it's one reason
I put on weight. Slowly losing it now. I recently started taking Acetyl L-Carnitine myself, hopefully that will help.

Delphine wrote:
I personally can't get past the fact that it is from GMO corn, thus associated with Monsanto and all that goes with that corporation

That's a good point, D. Wasn't considering that.

Nice thread here.

If one is not able to live without food for a few more hours than regularly, then this is something to be worked on. I've had some abdominal fat for my all life regardless of my weight. And guess what changed in last few months. Abdominal fat, i've lost most of it. Did not suffer weight loss, but the opposite. I guess everybody should try diet with higher fat intake - coconut oil, butter, MCT, ghee (if sensitive) are all good options. I mostly skip social meals that contain my allergen enemies, and replace it with as simple as butter + raw apple (i find it easier to digest if i add some fiber and acid in my stomach). This way i can go hours with out eating carbs, if not working out. Basically i go like this: morning coffee with butter - 5am, 1pm - lunch 1, 4pm - lunch 2, evening - apple or something starchy, something to help absorb some night supps. Eating too much in the evening never works for me. I still have hiatal hernia and i believe the foods can be stopped there for too long causing inflammation, resulting in morning bad breath. For this reason (skipping dinner) i need to eat some morning fatty meal (never carbs). I never counted calories as i dont think calorific value of the carbs/fats - linearity approach has to do much with energy production/consumption in human. The weekend days are more about carbs, and physical activities. Basically i go twice x 7-8h a day without eating. I am not as skiny as i was a few years ago, and feel also stronger. Have no time for exercise, but when i do it, i notice positive outcome in my muscle gain. I do eat plenty of meat in my eating window.

I think it's far from perfect, but it's a good compromise for me, to stay away from junk put on the table, in the practice of eating out. So far so good.

I guess best advice can come from trial and error done on oneself, as my girl would crash doing it like me.

I've been on two day fast and I suddenly remember the hell I went through last time around. My heart races abnormally fast and I'm hyper scatty because of increased adrenaline. Adrenaline levels increase so that more blood can be drawn to the heart during starvation (and brain), and adrenaline also rapidly converts fats into energy. This only seems to affect me when I go to bed, though, but if I lay on my left side my heart returns to a normal rate. This may be because gravity is somewhat pushing blood downward into the heart. However, I can fully understand why Karen Carpenter died of cardiac arrest. I have no idea how I did this over 4 weeks last time, and managed to survive. Today, though, I'll have a full meal... I'm just now awaiting the horrible acidic diarrhea to kick in,

I recently had someone say that fasting through the night ( from 7pm to 7 or 9am ) is a very stressful time on the body and that fasting should be done during the day.

I have read that a 12-14 hour fast 7 days a week is also good for weight loss.

This did not make sense to me, so I wanted to see what you guys thought about this?

Thanks.

I'm on the leangains protocol for about 2 weeks and feel great. I should have discovered intermittent fasting sooner.

I stop eating at 9pm and start eating never before 2pm in the following day, sometimes I only start eating at 3pm or even 4pm. I fast between 16 hours and 20 hours. When you have a small feeding windows, you have more time to prepare good meals, you stop eating by impulse and eat better. When fasting I drink tea or coffee without sugar.

I tend to have an Darwinian view of the human body. So I leave home in the morning with the Sun to "hunt" and gather some fruits/vegetables to only eat with my "tribe" when I arrive home before it becomes dangerous to be in the wild (dark). In fasting mode I become a better "hunter-gatherer" with the increased testosterone and adrenaline levels that maximises my strength and awareness.

When we are sick, we don't feel hunger so our body can detox itself. So don't worry if you don't eat for a few hours more than your usual. Let your body do a bit of autophagy (detoxing).

When you fast you'll literally become smarter, you have to find food.




I'll probably introduce a full day fasting in the weekends once a month.

Thanks, so the bit about about not fasting at night is a somewhat over the top? I could not understand how night time fasting when you are asleep is supposed to be so stressful on the body.

In an consumption society we are told to consume food/supplements everytime possible because companies need to sell stuff.

Go ahead with the intermittent fasting and listen to your body. You have plenty of information at leangains website.