Re: Detumescence Therapy- dedicated volunteers wanted

bov51 Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:07 am

Xenon wrote:I eat around 600 - 700 cals per day, the bulk of which (if you could call it that) is protein, either from eggs, fish or chicken. I'll also have a piece of toast.

wtf?? 600-700? thats so little you need to eat more! thats basically a meal for me

Keanoseg Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:47 am

fghjfghj wrote:
Dannyboy wrote:Where is that video - how can I know if its too strong, when it says all over that it should be aggressive - quite confusing.

No one knows how hard you should go. As I understand it there are two things DT is important for

1) Break up fibrosis, soften the hard tissue, make your scalp finally foldable and kneadable again, so that blood could reach every vessel.
To achieve this, I had to go very hard. And finaly, finaly - after 9 months (!) - I feel that I can kneat my scalp also at the top middle of my scalp. But its still not that easy.

2) When this is achieved: The deep tissue massage helps to lower inflamation, improve drainage, release growth factors etc.
Once your scalp is kneatable, you obviously don't need so much force. So a normal deep tissue massage (without hurting too much) should be enough

For me it makes sense, that it can't be good in the long term (many many years) to massage so forcefully, that it hurts. Here is the video about releasing grwoth factors, and where he raises the question how hard one should go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnmT3qGb-FI

Everyone is different. Everyones MPB is different. And everyone has to listen to his body.

My personal understanding is, that I have to go hard in the first year to finally make my scalp soft 1). But now I think, that I'm slowly reaching this softness.
I feel that DT is easier and easier with every week. That it hurts less and less. That it is more and more enjoyable. So hopefully I'll reach "stage 2" in the next months, when it's not about destroying old fibrotic tissue, but about maintaining a healthy scalp (and releasing a bit more growth factors and reduce inflamation when it appears somewhere)

Very well put. Everything you said is the same for me but I'm around 3 months in only.

Buster121 Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:23 pm

Having read through this tread I'm still unsure how to actually do the DT. Does anyone have a video? or pictures that clearly explain it?

Thanks in advance

deleteme Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:49 pm

Buster121 wrote:Having read through this tread I'm still unsure how to actually do the DT. Does anyone have a video? or pictures that clearly explain it?

Thanks in advance

Firmly press down on your scalp with either your hands or an object of your choice. You want to lift your skin from your scalp also by pinching your scalp together. As your scalp gets thinner you'll be able to pinch skin in a very small area together with ease. Pinching is easier and firmly pressing so i would suggest that first. It's easier in a warm shower. I think you could make more progress that way as your pores open up, skin becomes more pliable so the massage should have a stronger effect.

Buster121 Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:18 pm

massager wrote:
Buster121 wrote:Having read through this tread I'm still unsure how to actually do the DT. Does anyone have a video? or pictures that clearly explain it?

Thanks in advance
Firmly press down on your scalp with either your hands or an object of your choice. You want to lift your skin from your scalp also by pinching your scalp together. As your scalp gets thinner you'll be able to pinch skin in a very small area together with ease. Pinching is easier and firmly pressing so i would suggest that first. It's easier in a warm shower. I think you could make more progress that way as your pores open up, skin becomes more pliable so the massage should have a stronger effect.

Would I press down with the palm of my hand?

Is it, press down then push the scalp in an upwards or downward motion to create a sort of pinch?

Or is it, press down and actually pinch your scalp?

Thanks

deleteme Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:34 pm

Buster121 wrote:
massager wrote:
Buster121 wrote:Having read through this tread I'm still unsure how to actually do the DT. Does anyone have a video? or pictures that clearly explain it?

Thanks in advance
Firmly press down on your scalp with either your hands or an object of your choice. You want to lift your skin from your scalp also by pinching your scalp together. As your scalp gets thinner you'll be able to pinch skin in a very small area together with ease. Pinching is easier and firmly pressing so i would suggest that first. It's easier in a warm shower. I think you could make more progress that way as your pores open up, skin becomes more pliable so the massage should have a stronger effect.

Would I press down with the palm of my hand?

Is it, press down then push the scalp in an upwards or downward motion to create a sort of pinch?

Or is it, press down and actually pinch your scalp?

Thanks

Use whatever you can feel making the greatest impact. I feel using the palm to push up the sides is an ok relaxing warm up but you need to focuson the problem areas with an effective Isolated massage. Asling as you are causing your skin to buckle and compressing it to the point your skin is close to the skull that's all that matters. The aim is to get you skin super soft and pliable. So I would advise to any kind of massage with hands tools whatever achieves these results. Just make sure you don'tgo easy. If you are not noticing your skin getting thin and close to the skull you need to work Iit harder. I personally don't feel hands are the best choice. I use two massage tools. TTheyare made of stone and use them on the side. I could just as easily use two rulers. Press down firmly on the side like chopping an onion. If you use both at once after pressing down you can squeeze the skin together with them both. When you do it just think of tissue paper. Try to get your skin that thin, it won'thappen but that goal will allow you to reach maximum skin thinness. Robert at perfect hair health has great advice

Buster121 Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:37 pm

massager wrote:
Buster121 wrote:
massager wrote:
Buster121 wrote:Having read through this tread I'm still unsure how to actually do the DT. Does anyone have a video? or pictures that clearly explain it?

Thanks in advance
Firmly press down on your scalp with either your hands or an object of your choice. You want to lift your skin from your scalp also by pinching your scalp together. As your scalp gets thinner you'll be able to pinch skin in a very small area together with ease. Pinching is easier and firmly pressing so i would suggest that first. It's easier in a warm shower. I think you could make more progress that way as your pores open up, skin becomes more pliable so the massage should have a stronger effect.

Would I press down with the palm of my hand?

Is it, press down then push the scalp in an upwards or downward motion to create a sort of pinch?

Or is it, press down and actually pinch your scalp?

Thanks

Use whatever you can feel making the greatest impact. I feel using the palm to push up the sides is an ok relaxing warm up but you need to focuson the problem areas with an effective Isolated massage. Asling as you are causing your skin to buckle and compressing it to the point your skin is close to the skull that's all that matters. The aim is to get you skin super soft and pliable. So I would advise to any kind of massage with hands tools whatever achieves these results. Just make sure you don'tgo easy. If you are not noticing your skin getting thin and close to the skull you need to work Iit harder. I personally don't feel hands are the best choice. I use two massage tools. TTheyare made of stone and use them on the side. I could just as easily use two rulers. Press down firmly on the side like chopping an onion. If you use both at once after pressing down you can squeeze the skin together with them both. When you do it just think of tissue paper. Try to get your skin that thin, it won'thappen but that goal will allow you to reach maximum skin thinness. Robert at perfect hair health has great advice

Thanks, I think I understand it now.

Lastly, when the skin become pliable, does it result in lines across the forehead? like deep frown lines?

Buster121 Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:45 pm

is this right?

postimg.org/image/vgfbnougf/

CaptainGiggles Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:51 pm

Buster121 wrote:is this right?

postimg.org/image/vgfbnougf/

Yes it is. Now do that all over your head and you're good.

Buster121 Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:52 pm

Thanks

NYJets Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:48 am

Thanks, I think I understand it now.

Lastly, when the skin become pliable, does it result in lines across the forehead? like deep frown lines?

This is what happened on my left temple and it was very noticeable when I was doing DT. It didn't look like a good thing to me, did anyone experience the same? I didn't keep up with the DT unfortunately but I feel I shed a lot of skin and sebum and hair then started seeing some minor increase in thickness and color about 6-8 weeks later or so. Now my hair is in a worse state but it could be from a number things really...

hairderp Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:02 am

i am one month in, and i have those lines on my temples too

Xenon Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:33 pm

Believe in it, thanks... I already saw this video last week, I think you or someone else suggeted it to me on another thread. I typed out and saved many of the key points which the docotor made so I don't forget them.

fghjfghj , I think that the scalp can succumb to inflammation faster because there is little adipose tissue beneath the layers of skin. Aside from the galea, the tissue is literally being pressed against solid bone material. The lack of cushioning would likely cause cells to compress easier, whereas massaging tissue that has lots of underlying adipose tissue, plus softer musculature may not be so harsh because the fat and muscles help to cushion them better and alleviate compression. I read that cellular / capillary compression causes them to become damaged easier, thus triggering inflammation. I noticed that having my temples pressed against a pillow for too long seems to trigger inflammation. Whether this has anything to do with compression is another story. This may also be related to pillow fungus triggering a heightened immune response in the skin. IDK TBH.

Boogy, I agree... probably not the healthiest thing to do, but pissing about with so many diets for so long has probably shrunk my stomach to the point where large meals / cal consumption makes me feel uncomfortably bloated. I'm not getting any bad side effects, but probably will in the near future.

fghjfghj Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:48 am

Xenon wrote:I think that the scalp can succumb to inflammation faster because there is little adipose tissue beneath the layers of skin. Aside from the galea, the tissue is literally being pressed against solid bone material. (...)

Very good points, Xenon! This is, why I think it is so important to have a loose kneatable scalp. Because until its not kneatable, you hardly can't do any enjoyable massage (with all its anti-inflamantory benefits): You only press hardened, fibrotic, skin against hard bone... Which definitly comes along with all the things, you described.

But my conclusion is, that we have to go through this rough phase (with its other benefits, as bloodflow, destroying fibrosis etc), until we can do a massage (anti-inflamantory, bloodflow) "instead" of hard DT - as I described some posts earlier...

Keanoseg Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:03 am

Interesting point however in DT you mainly pinch the scalp skin. So the skin is pressed against itself on another side. If we were to take the orange analogy from the Xenon's post in Ferox thread this would provide quite a lot of tolerance for pressure. However you don't even pinch with all your force. It's not hardcore pinching until you black out of pain, but only enough to cause a bit of accute inflammation,not chronic. I think DT is amazingly healthy for the scalp and hair but off course everything in moderation. For that exact reason I am doing DT about only 10 minutes a day once or twice depends. What I'm doing is what Rob from perfecthairhealth ebook suggested as possibly the best DT method possible. I dont think there's any possibility of the problems Xenon mentioned if DT is done this way. You have to find your own force your body tells you everything. DT is supposed to hurt just a little bit but not a lot.

Growdamnit Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:37 am

6 months in: My scalp is much easier to massage than when I first started. My temples (only bald spots) are significantly looser and closer to the bone/flatter. There is still some fibrotic tissue underneath that I can feel, but am confident that it will disperse like the rest. I am no longer shedding as much as I was a couple of weeks back.

From time to time, I get this burning pain in my temples that I have never felt before. It feels very similar to sunburn and I'm attributing that to DT. I have not noticed any sign of terminal regrowth at all. Will continue to update as the months go by.

Keanoseg Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:35 am

Growdamnit wrote:6 months in: My scalp is much easier to massage than when I first started. My temples (only bald spots) are significantly looser and closer to the bone/flatter. There is still some fibrotic tissue underneath that I can feel, but am confident that it will disperse like the rest. I am no longer shedding as much as I was a couple of weeks back.

From time to time, I get this burning pain in my temples that I have never felt before. It feels very similar to sunburn and I'm attributing that to DT. I have not noticed any sign of terminal regrowth at all. Will continue to update as the months go by.

If you get sunburn sensation in your temples and around the places where you do DT let them rest until they are no longer that much sore. They can be sore a little but don't go hard if it's sore obviously, it's the same principal as overtraining when you lift weights and your body cannot maintain/rebuild.

rukongai Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:53 am

hey recently signed up to get some feedback, i have been doing the therapy for a bit, once a day, sometimes twice, sometimes EOD.
i was talking to my osteopath on fibrosis and calcification since he does some cranial osteopathy and he is well versed into hair loss stuff( he had a 5K graft). he was convinced on the DT and loosening of the scalp since a lot of cranial osteopathy is around that, and he can feel the quality of the blood-flow on peoples head ( mine wasn't good, and the top was very rigid)
He also has a machine (that costs 20K)that he used to treat people that had plantar fasciatis (with bone heel) and he told me he usually solves this in 4-5 appointements. radios to prove afterwards that the calcified condition disappears.
so we talked about the incidence of calcification and if the machine could work on the scalp, he is nice to let me do sessions on my own with it. so far i have experimented 4 sessions at 10K impulses/10hz frequency and a strength of 3.5/5 (this usually lasts 10 minutes).
id like to hear peoples opinion on this machine, not that it can replace DT and the loosening of the scalp, but mainly eliminate fibrosis and calcification.
international.chattgroup.com/products/intelectr-rpw-shockwave
htherapy.co.za/user_images/shockwave/Intelect_RPW_Clinical_Guide_COMPLETE_LR.pdf

fghjfghj Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:09 am

rukongai wrote:He also has a machine (that costs 20K)that he used to treat people that had plantar fasciatis (with bone heel) and he told me he usually solves this in 4-5 appointements. radios to prove afterwards that the calcified condition disappears.
so we talked about the incidence of calcification and if the machine could work on the scalp, he is nice to let me do sessions on my own with it. so far i have experimented 4 sessions at 10K impulses/10hz frequency and a strength of 3.5/5 (this usually lasts 10 minutes).
id like to hear peoples opinion on this machine, not that it can replace DT and the loosening of the scalp, but mainly eliminate fibrosis and calcification.

Jsas christ. I'm posting this vid for the fifth time already and hardly anybody is watching it. Really. I don't get it. Just because his lecture doesn't start with a picture of a bald guy doesn't mean, that it couldn't help us.

It is EXACTLY about the things, that we are talking about, here.

If you don't have time to watch the video (it lasts 40 min - so this are exactly two DT sessions) - scroll to min 23:00 and watch the end of the vid especially the Q&A (46min)

He describes, why one could use "extracorporeal shockwave therapy" (you call it "20k machine") theoretically - but he also mentions why the manufacturer is unsure if it is save for the head...

EDIT:
rukongai - I see, that this is your first post. So you don't have to know this vid Wink

A warm welcome, and thanks for sharing your experience!
It is also interesting, that you are using this device not for groeth factors, but for getting rid of calcification.

hiilikeyourbeard Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:13 pm

I want to develop some kind of injection that you could do into this tissue to dissolve it quickly. There has to be a way!

bananasinpajamas Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:14 pm

Cortisone injections melt away scar tissue

hiilikeyourbeard Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:29 pm

bananasinpajamas wrote:Cortisone injections melt away scar tissue

I'm not sure if it's scar tissue or calcium buildup or what, though.

hiilikeyourbeard Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:48 pm

Also, I can't prove this. But I have a feeling MPB is directly related to the inflammation caused from facial tension

JDawg Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:49 pm

bananasinpajamas wrote:Cortisone injections melt away scar tissue

no it does not.

Where do you get this information?

Scar tissue is not "melted away" by cortisone. Cortisone is an anti-inflammitory, anti-pain injection. It reduces inflammation, which can reduce scar tissue by not allowing it to form, but it doesn't "melt" it away or destroy scar tissue.

rukongai Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:53 am

fghjfghj wrote:
rukongai wrote:He also has a machine (that costs 20K)that he used to treat people that had plantar fasciatis (with bone heel) and he told me he usually solves this in 4-5 appointements. radios to prove afterwards that the calcified condition disappears.
so we talked about the incidence of calcification and if the machine could work on the scalp, he is nice to let me do sessions on my own with it. so far i have experimented 4 sessions at 10K impulses/10hz frequency and a strength of 3.5/5 (this usually lasts 10 minutes).
id like to hear peoples opinion on this machine, not that it can replace DT and the loosening of the scalp, but mainly eliminate fibrosis and calcification.

Jsas christ. I'm posting this vid for the fifth time already and hardly anybody is watching it. Really. I don't get it. Just because his lecture doesn't start with a picture of a bald guy doesn't mean, that it couldn't help us.

It is EXACTLY about the things, that we are talking about, here.

If you don't have time to watch the video (it lasts 40 min - so this are exactly two DT sessions) - scroll to min 23:00 and watch the end of the vid especially the Q&A (46min)

He describes, why one could use "extracorporeal shockwave therapy" (you call it "20k machine") theoretically - but he also mentions why the manufacturer is unsure if it is save for the head...

EDIT:
rukongai - I see, that this is your first post. So you don't have to know this vid
A warm welcome, and thanks for sharing your experience!
It is also interesting, that you are using this device not for groweth factors, but for getting rid of calcification.

very interesting video. I did not see it posted before, ive just been in this thread really , this thread has some nice compiled info on the factors we see in the video : hairlosstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/76578-Fibrosis-Inflammation-amp-Androgen-Alopecia

what i noted most is slide at 40.48, the GF factors that are crucial. however that is after 72h of cyclical stretching, and the 24h didn't yield much result in terms of gene up regulation

24:02 is like the machine i do except it would be put at the lowest setting possible, mine does 5-6 taps per sec, at a much stronger rate.

14:58, the slide seems to indicate that sheer motion is the most effective (?) would applying this to DT maybe more beneficial ?

he did see the manufacturer doesnt recommend it on the scalp. I think no one could bring the machine close to the scalp at 3/4 of its full power, im also using the smallest hammer end possible, i tried a low setting with the bigger ones and its not possible. I also believe long term therapy with this would not be good ex: ed for 6 months.

since it seems all the cell analysis was done specifically under wounded or scarred tissue in the process of healing, it would make sense that dermarolling before a DT or a machine sessio would be even more efficient in stimulating the cells

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