Detumescence Therapy- dedicated volunteers wanted

Xenon wrote:The only problem I have with all of this DT stuff is the possibility of rupturing veins which pass through skull sinuses. If the scalp is constantly being moved back and forth, then abrasions / rupturing might occur due to veins rubbing against the bone cavity. These veins play an integral role in brain cooling, not to mention brain fluid drainage.

P.S. the rupturing of these veins may lead to a subdural haematoma.

Hi Xenon. Thanks for your post. Could you please clarify and give us some resources, how you could damage these veins through massage? So you are not talking about the rapturing of the "skull sinuses veins", but the "bridging veins" or "Emissary veins" (if you google these words, you'll find well explaining pics). But I couldn't find any ressources about how you could damage them through massage.

Thanks

Does anyone else get a burning feeling the same day after doing DT? I'm still trying to figure out whether i'm getting regular MPB based inflammation or just inflammation from the vigorousness of the DT. Because the burning is concentrated mainly in my temples and they are currently receding again, I'm pretty worried obviously. Feels a bit sunburnish in those areas.

fghjfghj I was reading about how subdural haematomas are caused, and what I read was, the bridging veins are ruptured through violent back and forth movement of the brain (cue for example a car accident). The bridging veins are connected to the emissary veins via the sinuses in the skull. Therefore, if back and forth movement of the brain can cause the bridging veins to rupture, then wouldn't continuous back and forth movement of the scalp also cause rupturing of the emissary veins?

Check out this diagram and judge for yourself. I personally think that the emissary veins could rupture if moved back and forth against the sinuses too often. We are talking about hard bone mass after all, not to mention stretching of veins:

http://www.netterimages.com/image/8484.htm

P.S. I was aware of the names of these veins, I just used a simplified term to describe their general purpose without the need of an essay.

Xenon wrote:Therefore, if back and forth movement of the brain can cause the bridging veins to rupture, then wouldn't continuous back and forth movement of the scalp also cause rupturing of the emissary veins?

Thanks for the answer, Xenon. First: I'm absolutely not a doctor - so this ist just an open discussion here. But I thnik, that there is a big difference between a scalp massage (even a deep tissue massage) and this:
http://www.medicalexhibits.com/obrasky/2009/09105_01X.jpg

The diagram you posted with the emissary vein. After all - we still have the galea between the scalp and the bone (with these emissary veins) - am I correct? This is the reason why we can move our scalp on our bone freely without rapturing these veins. I was also able to move my scalp back and forth before DT (but I was not able to fold it)
I'm sure it is possible to rapture these veins. But how hard should you push to achieve that?

Slimnuts wrote:Does anyone else get a burning feeling the same day after doing DT? I'm still trying to figure out whether i'm getting regular MPB based inflammation or just inflammation from the vigorousness of the DT. Because the burning is concentrated mainly in my temples and they are currently receding again, I'm pretty worried obviously. Feels a bit sunburnish in those areas.

It doesn't happen after every day, but most of the time I feel that exact sensation.

I'm 5 days away from 6 months in and still notice more loss than growth. Hopefully it'll look up in the later months.

Well, I'm no doctor either, and as pointed out, i said that rupturing / abrasions may be a consequence of DT, so be careful. As I understand it, the DT method incorporates massage as well as Maliniak-esque scalp stretching techniques, right? Drexx mentioned in an earlier post, that you move the scalp while simultaneously massaging, so I am going by what he said.

Also, if the veins pass through skull sinuses, then there is only bone material which they are passing through. The galea must be on top of these particular veins. These are the ones I am specifically referring to, not the entire network of emissary veins.

So, anyway, if the scalp is moved back and forth, then so would the network of emissary veins, which would likely have a push and pull effect upon the veins passing trough the sinuses.

I could be wrong about that, but thought I'd throw that one out there in case it presented a possible danger.

Xenon wrote:The galea must be on top of these particular veins. (...)
So, anyway, if the scalp is moved back and forth, then so would the network of emissary veins, which would likely have a push and pull effect upon the veins passing trough the sinuses.

I don't get your conclusion - it seems contradictory to me.
If the galea with the scalp is on top of these vains (as you said and as I researched so far) - so by moving your scalp you'll not push and pull these vains - it would be more like a rubbing-force between the veins on the bone and the moving galea with the scalp.
Of course these tissues are connected - so you could damage something (force is still force).
But again: This is, what the galea is for: to have the possibilty of moving your scalp. < this is, how I understand it.

Yes, I get your point, but the galea doesn't pass through these sinuses which the emissary veins pass through, right? I am only focusing on the veins that pass through the sinuses and the possibility of them rupturing against the sinus edges if moved too far and too often. The galea allows the scalp to move to an extent, as well as these veins, but passing a certain threshold might present problems.

Anyway, no offense, but I have said what I needed to say about this and cannot be bothered continuing the debate. If DT is causing you no problems, then that's great; it may prove that there is nothing to worry about, and I hope this is the case for everyone else also.

Growdamnit wrote:

Slimnuts wrote:Does anyone else get a burning feeling the same day after doing DT? I'm still trying to figure out whether i'm getting regular MPB based inflammation or just inflammation from the vigorousness of the DT. Because the burning is concentrated mainly in my temples and they are currently receding again, I'm pretty worried obviously. Feels a bit sunburnish in those areas.

It doesn't happen after every day, but most of the time I feel that exact sensation.

I'm 5 days away from 6 months in and still notice more loss than growth. Hopefully it'll look up in the later months.

Ok that makes me feel a bit better. I've been really freaking out about it because I didnt have much burning for a long time up there since cleaning up my diet and then I started DT hard and all of a sudden inflammation is back. Hopefully its just from the DT then and will eventually come back.

5 months in and I've lost a shit ton of ground. Other than some unevenly scattered tiny black dots on my crown and some random terminals along my hairline, I have little else to report. I started out as a diffuse NW3 and now I'm probably a 4.5 . At this point I have little reason to doubt the therapy, but I'll keep going, there's no turning back.

CaptainGiggles wrote:5 months in and I've lost a shit ton of ground. Other than some unevenly scattered tiny black dots on my crown and some random terminals along my hairline, I have little else to report. I started out as a diffuse NW3 and now I'm probably a 4.5 . At this point I have little reason to doubt the therapy, but I'll keep going, there's no turning back.

Same here bro, sure i see some vellus around the hairline but when I look at my hair overall, it is much worst than before. We'll see how it turns out when drexx decide to post his results.

boogv510 wrote:

CaptainGiggles wrote:5 months in and I've lost a shit ton of ground. Other than some unevenly scattered tiny black dots on my crown and some random terminals along my hairline, I have little else to report. I started out as a diffuse NW3 and now I'm probably a 4.5 . At this point I have little reason to doubt the therapy, but I'll keep going, there's no turning back.

Same here bro, sure i see some vellus around the hairline but when I look at my hair overall, it is much worst than before.  We'll see how it turns out when drexx decide to post his results.

How long are you into it? What exactly do you do?

Maybe those vellus have always been there but you never noticed it until you lost a lot of terminals.

just to chime in on a more positive note i want to tell you guys my regrowth has been going crazy in the last days.

newbies trust in it, do it right, maybe fix your diet at the same time when it's too bad and you will get lots and lots if not all of your hair back and never lose it again because now you've found the tool.

BelieveInIt wrote:just to chime in on a more positive note i want to tell you guys my regrowth has been going crazy in the last days.

newbies trust in it, do it right, maybe fix your diet at the same time when it's too bad and you  will get lots and lots if not all of your hair back and never lose it again because now you've found the tool.

Thank you for that, you got my hopes up a little. Can you please elaborate on your diet and your DT method?

CaptainGiggles wrote:

BelieveInIt wrote:just to chime in on a more positive note i want to tell you guys my regrowth has been going crazy in the last days.

newbies trust in it, do it right, maybe fix your diet at the same time when it's too bad and you  will get lots and lots if not all of your hair back and never lose it again because now you've found the tool.

Thank you for that, you got my hopes up a little. Can you please elaborate on your diet and your DT method?

my diet are two HUGE salads a day each containing:
1 entire romaine lettuce
100g arugula or broccoli
carrot, tomatoes, cucumber, zucchini, olives, mushrooms
onion or garlic

no oils no vinegar instead dressing made from 1 avocado + lemon juice + 4 brazil or walnuts

if i get hungry in between the meals i eat fruit, a different kind every time and every day.

once in a while i'll have some meat,fish or chicken. no supplements, no fancy superfoods anymore and no dairy except when i eat out.

i described my technique a few times before, you need to pinch the scalp with fingertips of both hands so hard that you can feel it fold up. move the fingers past each other so that you grind the skin between them. do this in every direction (not only folds going from north-south but also from west-east) even if it might be hard to align the hands to some uncommon positions at first. it helps doing it in the shower under warm water, this softens the skin, but don't overdo it, it might dry out your skin and harm your hair.

make sure your scalp LIFTS from the bone in every spot you do it and that the whole scalp including the TOP and the BACK is as soft as the sides. the top and the back are absolutely crucial, you have to get them loose even if you're not thinning in those particular spots.

Slimnuts wrote:

Growdamnit wrote:

Slimnuts wrote:Does anyone else get a burning feeling the same day after doing DT? I'm still trying to figure out whether i'm getting regular MPB based inflammation or just inflammation from the vigorousness of the DT. Because the burning is concentrated mainly in my temples and they are currently receding again, I'm pretty worried obviously. Feels a bit sunburnish in those areas.

It doesn't happen after every day, but most of the time I feel that exact sensation.

I'm 5 days away from 6 months in and still notice more loss than growth. Hopefully it'll look up in the later months.

Ok that makes me feel a bit better. I've been really freaking out about it because I didnt have much burning for a long time up there since cleaning up my diet and then I started DT hard and all of a sudden inflammation is back. Hopefully its just from the DT then and will eventually come back.

I don't mean to be a condescending dick, but that's why I was sceptical about the BB and DT methods. Scratching with BB bristles as well as hard and continuous skin kneading can lead to friction induced inflammation. I've read that progenitor cells can increase in injured tissues, but for me, I know that inflammation precedes hairloss, so I wasn't willing to take the chance of losing anymore hair. But you never know... others on here insist that new hair eventually regrows after it falls out.

You have more balls than me, I have to say.

Xenon wrote:

Slimnuts wrote:

Growdamnit wrote:

Slimnuts wrote:Does anyone else get a burning feeling the same day after doing DT? I'm still trying to figure out whether i'm getting regular MPB based inflammation or just inflammation from the vigorousness of the DT. Because the burning is concentrated mainly in my temples and they are currently receding again, I'm pretty worried obviously. Feels a bit sunburnish in those areas.

It doesn't happen after every day, but most of the time I feel that exact sensation.

I'm 5 days away from 6 months in and still notice more loss than growth. Hopefully it'll look up in the later months.

Ok that makes me feel a bit better. I've been really freaking out about it because I didnt have much burning for a long time up there since cleaning up my diet and then I started DT hard and all of a sudden inflammation is back. Hopefully its just from the DT then and will eventually come back.

I don't mean to be a condescending dick, but that's why I was sceptical about the BB and DT methods. Scratching with BB bristles as well as hard and continuous skin kneading can lead to friction induced inflammation. I've read that progenitor cells can increase in injured tissues, but for me, I know that inflammation precedes hairloss, so I wasn't willing to take the chance of losing anymore hair. But you never know... others on here insist that new hair eventually regrows after it falls out.  

You have more balls than me, I have to say.

xenon how much protein and from what sources do you take in?

Xenon wrote:continuous skin kneading can lead to friction induced inflammation.

Xenon wrote:I know that inflammation precedes hairloss.

I don't wnat to challange you in a medical-discussion again ... but...

1) Isn't deep Tissue massage supposed to reduce chronic inflammataion? Isn't this the (or one of the) reasons why we are doing it? I remember to have read some papers, that were posted here, that deep tissue massage of muscels is even much more efficient than mediaction. So this is good for fighting chronic inflammation, as I understand it.

2) What is bad, is chronic inflammation. As far as I know, all manual methods are also supposed to release growth factors (I posted a Video from the Hair-Loss congress a while ago about manual mathods not only for hair, but for tissue regeneration in general). This is also the reason, why dermarolling could work. There is a big difference between inflammation (this is why a cut gets healed) and chronic inflammation (which leads to fibrotic tissue).
Wasnt there even a study posted here about the PGE2 (might be good > refer to minox) / PGD2 (bad > costeralis study) balance? Both are released through inflammation - but the balance changes after more than 5-8 days after wounding (more PGD2 than PGE2). You could imagine what you have with chronic inflammation...

I eat around 600 - 700 cals per day, the bulk of which (if you could call it that) is protein, either from eggs, fish or chicken. I'll also have a piece of toast.

fghjfghj, yes you're right in some respects, that massage can reduce inflammation, as I have applied this technique, but, from experience, I have also noticed that doing it too often and a little too hard seems to cause skin friction and inflammation .  If you are doing this every day (or a couple of times per day), then the tissue is going to become chronically inflamed. Tissue needs adequate recovery time for growth factors to take effect. This is likely the reason why many DT'rs are reporting increased inflammation and further hairloss after doing this for several months. Many of the boar brushers were reporting the exact same thing.

P.S. I don't mind you challenging me, and nor do I object to being corrected. I don't know everything and it's always good to learn.

Xenon wrote:I eat around 600 - 700 cals per day, the bulk of which (if you could call it that) is protein, either from eggs, fish or chicken. I'll also have a piece of toast.

xenon then this video is for you, he talks about how too much protein (and of the wrong kind) increases risk of inflammation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKmlr40a2Do

Xenon wrote:Tissue needs adequate recovery time for growth factors to take effect. This is likely the reason why many DT'rs are reporting increased inflammation and further hairloss after doing this for several months.

I fully agree espacially when talking about Dermarolling. I also wonder why some of them are doing a roll once a week...

But now back to DT. I think that if your scalp is loose - you should be able to massage the scalp everyday without any friction -and in this way just get the good thing of the deep tissue massage (drainage, blood flow, groth factors, reducing inflamation).
I think this is why its so important to have all the scalp soft! My scalp is still hard in some parts (and yes - it hurts if I do DT too hard, too often)... So this is, where I'm aiming to.

But you are right: Also in the video about deep tissue massage the speaker mentioned a few times, that it is important to know how much force we need... Too much is not good!

fghjfghj wrote:

Xenon wrote:Tissue needs adequate recovery time for growth factors to take effect. This is likely the reason why many DT'rs are reporting increased inflammation and further hairloss after doing this for several months.

I fully agree espacially when talking about Dermarolling. I also wonder why some of them are doing a roll once a week...

But now back to DT. I think that if your scalp is loose - you should be able to massage the scalp everyday without any friction -and in this way just get the good thing of the deep tissue massage (drainage, blood flow, groth factors, reducing inflamation).
I think this is why its so important to have all the scalp soft! My scalp is still hard in some parts (and yes - it hurts if I do DT too hard, too often)... So this is, where I'm aiming to.

But you are right: Also in the video about deep tissue massage the speaker mentioned a few times, that it is important to know how much force we need... Too much is not good!

So in that sense -is it no good to use my laser helmet about 3 times a week while doing DT? or any other things for increasing regrowth treatment?
Where is that video - how can I know if its too strong, when it says all over that it should be aggressive - quite confusing.

CaptainGiggles wrote:

boogv510 wrote:

CaptainGiggles wrote:5 months in and I've lost a shit ton of ground. Other than some unevenly scattered tiny black dots on my crown and some random terminals along my hairline, I have little else to report. I started out as a diffuse NW3 and now I'm probably a 4.5 . At this point I have little reason to doubt the therapy, but I'll keep going, there's no turning back.

Same here bro, sure i see some vellus around the hairline but when I look at my hair overall, it is much worst than before.  We'll see how it turns out when drexx decide to post his results.

How long are you into it? What exactly do you do?

I started in January. First I would massage around my scalp to get a it loose then I pinch around my scalp then work all over my head.

bananasinpajamas wrote:
Maybe those vellus have always been there but you never noticed it until you lost a lot of terminals.

It def was never there because I have a small mole on my hairline that I use as a measuring stick. Its not those vellus hair that can only been seen at a certain angle.

Dannyboy wrote:Where is that video - how can I know if its too strong, when it says all over that it should be aggressive - quite confusing.

No one knows how hard you should go. As I understand it there are two things DT is important for

1) Break up fibrosis, soften the hard tissue, make your scalp finally foldable and kneadable again, so that blood could reach every vessel.
To achieve this, I had to go very hard. And finaly, finaly - after 9 months (!) - I feel that I can kneat my scalp also at the top middle of my scalp. But its still not that easy.

2) When this is achieved: The deep tissue massage helps to lower inflamation, improve drainage, release growth factors etc.
Once your scalp is kneatable, you obviously don't need so much force. So a normal deep tissue massage (without hurting too much) should be enough

For me it makes sense, that it can't be good in the long term (many many years) to massage so forcefully, that it hurts. Here is the video about releasing grwoth factors, and where he raises the question how hard one should go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnmT3qGb-FI


Everyone is different. Everyones MPB is different. And everyone has to listen to his body.

My personal understanding is, that I have to go hard in the first year to finally make my scalp soft 1). But now I think, that I'm slowly reaching this softness.
I feel that DT is easier and easier with every week. That it hurts less and less. That it is more and more enjoyable. So hopefully I'll reach "stage 2" in the next months, when it's not about destroying old fibrotic tissue, but about maintaining a healthy scalp (and releasing a bit more growth factors and reduce inflamation when it appears somewhere)