Densiti and modern equol solutions

Oh, query, none of the other things I am taking should interfere should they? Beta-sitosterol, hyaluronic acid, hydrolyzed collagen, lignans, stuff like that? Just want to make sure, as I would drop things if I thought they might be hindering Densiti, as it is my top supplement atm

Hoppi

Hoppipolla wrote:Oh, query, none of the other things I am taking should interfere should they? Beta-sitosterol, hyaluronic acid, hydrolyzed collagen, lignans, stuff like that? Just want to make sure, as I would drop things if I thought they might be hindering Densiti, as it is my top supplement atm

Hoppi

I can't say either way. You may want to do some research to see if any of those may have an effect on intestinal flora. My suspicion is that there should be no issue, but to be safe, you may want to suspend your other treatments temporarily.

Eric

Does anyone have results positive or negative to report using densiti as yet?

Crys

Nothing to report just yet but its still early for me

So, question, what do we reckon is the max saturated fat we should eat a day while on Densiti? I mean 20 grams a day is the recommended daily maximum.. I've been eating a fair number of korma curries on and off (about 7-10 grams each) and have the quite occassional chocolate bar (about 4.5). Is this probably too much? My diet overall is quite good, but I only just noticed my intake of saturates may be too high ._. Perhaps I should keep it under 10 grams a day?

Hoppi

To be honest I think I've been getting far, far too many saturates

Korma is really high, as are the probiotic yoghurts that I was wolfing down at one point lol

I wonder why saturated fat has such a detrimental effect.

So if the science behind Densiti is accurate, I would assume one could expect similar results by just taking Bacillus Coagulans, EGCG, and a soy product with at least 30 mg of daidzein, and then eating yogurt. I'd rather take them seperate. I would think its probably even more effective to go the natural route and get your soy from organic soy beans and the EGCG from organic green tea, but it would probably be difficult to consume enough of both on a daily basis to stimulate equol production.

As long as you meet the requirements in some way I doubt it makes that much difference

Seems a bit odd that Pharmavite would have a website entirely devoted to a product that they don't offer or even provide a time frame indicating when they might make it available. http://www.naturalequol.com

Hoppi, did you get any response to the email you sent them?

They just told me they weren't selling it anymore.

I also messaged tons of other labs, and I even offered a $25 "reward" basically to anyone on oDesk who found an (s-)equol supplement for a reasonable price that I could buy in the UK!

Even after ALL that... all we really have are 3 labs that sell it at a reasonable price (I'm still not sure if they are selling R, S or a combo) and a now discontinued supplement (I will e-mail the company a little later to ask _why_ they discontinued it!).

Oh, here are the labs:

www.betapharma.com
www.wdfpharm.com
www.bepharm.com

I also might just embrace the fact that I'm going on an increasingly Japanese diet lol - its just all perfect for encouraging equol! The amount of fat in my diet has plummeted, veg and rice have increased, and I will soon try to reduce meat and increase fish! When it comes to the Jap diet.. if it aint broke dont fix it! ^_^

Some further information courtesy of a very cool guy on oDesk!

Patent for use of S-Equol - http://www.odesk.com/leaving_odesk.php?ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faqs.org%2Fpatents%2Fapp%2F20090018185

Details of the assignees! http://www.odesk.com/leaving_odesk.php?ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.adventistyearbook.org%2FViewEntity.aspx%3FEntityID%3D13273


Oh, and this link in case anyone missed it: http://www.hairloss-research.org/UpdateDensity5-10.html


We were discussing the other bacteria mentioned in the patent for making equol. It's all very interesting an exciting, but the guy advised caution with some strains (god knows what the carnivorous ones are capable of if they get near to you... )

but yeah! Some general progress perhaps

Hi Hoppi,

As far as I have seen, nobody is selling a legitimate s-equol supplement, and I don't expect there to be one for some time. s-equol synthesized in a lab is probably not going to qualify very easily as a "nutritional supplement" under FDA guidelines. In my opinion, it's more of a pharmaceutical than a nutraceutical at that point, but it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Eventually, there will be an s-equol-based product, but in what form remains to be seen.

As for your saturated fat intake, it sounds reasonable what you are consuming now. If you were eating burgers or pizza every night, that is another situation entirely.

Eric

Hoppipolla wrote:They just told me they weren't selling it anymore.

I also messaged tons of other labs, and I even offered a $25 "reward" basically to anyone on oDesk who found an (s-)equol supplement for a reasonable price that I could buy in the UK!

Even after ALL that... all we really have are 3 labs that sell it at a reasonable price (I'm still not sure if they are selling R, S or a combo) and a now discontinued supplement (I will e-mail the company a little later to ask _why_ they discontinued it!).

Oh, here are the labs:

www.betapharma.com
www.wdfpharm.com
www.bepharm.com

Yes, it is possible to achieve success with off-the-shelf separate supplements, but you would be consuming at least 10-14 capsules per day and the cost would far exceed simply purchasing Densiti. We are using premium ingredients at a specific ratio to achieve success with as few capsules as possible. It has been a long, hard process to get it down to 4 capsules per day.

Eric

big mike wrote:So if the science behind Densiti is accurate, I would assume one could expect similar results by just taking Bacillus Coagulans, EGCG, and a soy product with at least 30 mg of daidzein, and then eating yogurt. I'd rather take them seperate. I would think its probably even more effective to go the natural route and get your soy from organic soy beans and the EGCG from organic green tea, but it would probably be difficult to consume enough of both on a daily basis to stimulate equol production.

Eric are you suggesting that a Paleo diet might interfere with equol production? I eat a lot of red meat and havent had much luck so far with densiti. Ive been taking it for 4 weeks and im still shedding a ton of hair per day - could I be some of the unlucky few who can't create equol or have other people had delayed results as well?

If your diet is high in saturated fats or sugars, I would suggest changing it. See this article for a good summary:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120318757&sc=17&f=1128

It is incredible, but the composition of your gut flora can change in as little as 24 hours depending on what you eat. That means you must stay vigilant to a diet that does not counter equol production.

We are working on our label, and I suppose that we need to put more information about this on there or include a pamphlet with the bottles to make it more clear on what not to do.

It is possible for a user of Densiti to still have significant shedding at 4 weeks, if they are over 40 years old and/or are probably above a Norwood IV. I had one guy take 10 weeks to establish full loss of shedding, and he was in his 60's. However, in your case, it may be more diet-related.

Eric

brandnew wrote:Eric are you suggesting that a Paleo diet might interfere with equol production? I eat a lot of red meat and havent had much luck so far with densiti. Ive been taking it for 4 weeks and im still shedding a ton of hair per day - could I be some of the unlucky few who can't create equol or have other people had delayed results as well?

I agree about the equol supplements so far being useless, however saturated fat or meat consumption is not a negative with equol production.

" Stratified analyses revealed that men who had consumed 30 mg soy isoflavones/d for at least 2 y had 5.3-times the probability of producing equol than men who had consumed 5 mg/d (P = 0.014). Additionally, those men who consumed animal meat regularly had 4.7-times the probability of producing equol than men who did not consume meat (P = 0.023)."

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/6/1400

Hoppipolla - I'm finally getting back to you on the previous topic about user experiences on Equol supplements. Check out this thread.

https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/natural-hair-regrowth-f1/cs-question-about-change-to-your-regime-t3915.htm

Hey CS, there seems to be some contradictory studies on equol and meat eating


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677009/

DETERMINANTS OF THE EQUOL-PRODUCER PHENOTYPES
Factors that influence the capacity to produce equol are not clearly established; however, gut physiology, host genetics, and diet appear to contribute to interindividual differences in conversion of daidzein to equol. Several aspects of gut function are shown to be associated with the capacity to produce equol. Tamura et al (3) reported that the percentage of equol producers tended to be greater among lactose malabsorbers. Lactase can hydrolyze isoflavone glycosides; thus, among individuals with low lactase activity, presumably more daidzin is reaching the colon and being hydrolyzed and converted to equol (3). Low lactase activity also may affect delivery of other dietary constituents to the colon and further affect the gut bacterial profile. This relation needs to be characterized further. Large intestinal transit also is shown to be associated with the equol-producer phenotype. In a study of 200 premenopausal women, equol producers reported more frequent constipation than nonproducers (4).
The apparent stability of equol production in individuals over time (5) raises the possibility that the phenotype may be under some level of genetic control. Host genetics were shown to influence normal intestinal bacterial populations (6, 7). One family study tested specifically the role of host genetics on daidzein-metabolizing phenotypes (. Familial correlation and segregation analyses suggested that there may be a genetic component to being an equol producer but that other nongenetic factors also likely were involved. More robust study designs and larger samples are needed to test this hypothesis further.
Comparison of the habitual dietary intakes of equol producers and nonproducers showed some differences; however, the differences appeared to be influenced by the populations under study. Among studies that assessed diet in relation to equol production, positive associations between equol production and intakes of soy, animal products, green tea, and a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet were reported in some (9–12) but not all of the studies (13–15). Three recently published studies of equol production and diet among women showed few dietary differences by phenotype. Bolca et al (16) reported that in 100 healthy postmenopausal women, the strong equol-producer phenotype (highest of 3 categories of equol excretion with an isoflavone challenge) was associated with higher intakes of polyunsaturated fatty acids and alcohol. Atkinson et al (4) assessed diet with food-frequency questionnaire and a 3-d food record in 200 women but showed few dietary differences between the phenotypes. Associations between intake of vegetables and eggs and equol production were observed, but these were not significant when adjusted for false discovery rate. Nagata et al (17) evaluated urinary equol excretion in relation to diet in 419 Japanese women. In this population, dairy product intake was significantly lower (P = 0.02) in women who excreted detectable equol in urine. The authors suggest that constituents of dairy foods may influence gut bacterial composition and the presence of equol-producing bacteria; however, given the recent observation that the prevalence of equol production is higher among lactose malabsorbers (3), an alternative interpretation of these dietary data is that equol producers are more likely to be lactose malabsorbers and, therefore, tend to avoid dairy foods.
Several studies suggest that the prevalence of equol-producing phenotypes differs between low soy– and high soy–consuming populations (15, 18, 19), although whether this is due to regular soy exposure itself or population differences in other consituents of diet remains to be established. Setchell and Cole (15) reported that in a sample of 41 healthy volunteers (29 vegetarians and 12 nonvegetarians), the prevalence of equol producers among the vegetarians and nonvegetarians was 59% and 25%, respectively. Similarly, Song et al (19) reported that the prevalence of the equol-producer phenotype was significantly higher (51% compared with 36%; P = 0.015) and the O-desmethylangolensin–producer phenotype was significantly lower (84% compared with 92%; P = 0.03) in 91 Korean-American than in 222 white American women, and girls.
Other demographic and lifestyle factors also were evaluated in relation to the equol-producer phenotype. In the United States, equol production was positively associated with education in 2 predominantly white populations (4, but not another (20). Smoking status also is associated with the phenotype in some (20) but not other study populations (4, 8, 17)


.b]Recent antibiotic therapy seemed to affect the 8-PN production negatively. Furthermore, strong equol producers reported higher poly-unsaturated fatty acid and alcohol intakes, whereas strong 8-PN producers consumed less alcohol and more theobromine.[/b]

That's an interesting, but I believe flawed study. Meat can be anything from fish to steak, and they do not define their subjects diets very well. The consensus I have seen among studies is that vegetarians generally are more likely to produce equol. Here is one study saying the exact opposite:
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/136/8/2188

I have been working on and researching this for quite some time, and let me tell you my personal experience from about 3 years ago. I was on the pre-Densiti regimen which was working great on my generally healthy diet. I then purposely went on the "Burger King" diet, meaning I ate nothing but unhealthy, fattening food. After 2 weeks, I was starting to shed again, and noticed itchiness in my scalp in as little as 3 days. After switching back to a healthy diet, it took 3 weeks to loose the shedding again.

Eric

[quote="CausticSymmetry"]I agree about the equol supplements so far being useless, however saturated fat or meat consumption is not a negative with equol production.

" Stratified analyses revealed that men who had consumed 30 mg soy isoflavones/d for at least 2 y had 5.3-times the probability of producing equol than men who had consumed 5 mg/d (P = 0.014). Additionally, those men who consumed animal meat regularly had 4.7-times the probability of producing equol than men who did not consume meat (P = 0.023)."

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/6/1400

Hoppipolla - I'm finally getting back to you on the previous topic about user experiences on Equol supplements. Check out this thread.

Ah that's good that my diet wasn't too heavy in saturates

It's improved again recently though, and I'm now getting very little fat really and pretty low sugar as well!

I'm eating a good amount of sushi too, so that should help! Sorry for giving in to the seaweed temptation a bit Eric, my hair is just looking very weak compared to how I'd like it to be and I want to give everything it's very best chances. I'm also looking a fair bit into action<reaction's recent threads, as there seem to be a lot of great approaches around at the moment

So far no reduction in shedding, but I'll just stay focused and keep going

I consume a very heavy meat diet, and it suits my metabolic type. I suffer from shedding from a high carbohydrate diet. I do not think the studies are accurate enough to surmise anything.

What I can say is that I have used probiotics consistently and I think this has played at least some role in zero hair loss for the last few years.

For shedding Hoppi - try kefir massaged into hair/scalp at night, leave on for a couple of hours then rinse out with water only. Also large amounts of brewers yeast. Helps me cope with shedding.

I just want to make sure people know that Densiti is intended to help people with androgenic alopecia aka male pattern baldness. This means that you are losing/thinning hair *only* on the top and/or front of your head, and your hair loss is not caused by an auto-immune disorder or some other health issue.

Last night I realized that someone from this forum, whom was not having success with Densiti, likely has some other form of alopecia, as he is losing hair and having thinning on his entire head. I believe that I.H. may be attracting other men whom may have other forms of alopecia, so I just want to make the purpose of Densiti clear.

If you are in doubt about the cause of your hair loss, you should really see a health professional. Sometimes hair loss could be caused by a severe, underlying health issue. It could be a warning sign that you shouldn't ignore.

Thanks,
Eric

As well as Densiti, I really want to obtain or make pure s-equol. I think that something with this much potential just needs to be given a full swing at MPB.

If anyone is with me, I want to find a way of making s-equol that is fit to be taken orally. I just don't want to wait any longer for companies to release it, and even when they do it tends to be in very low doses and a combination of R and S equol. I just think we need to do it. Make it, use it, and test it.

Because if it works, we're done. I think that guys should be able to eat what they want, drink what they want, and keep their hair, you know? And equol could be the ticket

Sorry to be so blunt but.. am I not right? If it doesn't work, then that's cool, but I don't think oral s-equol has been given a fair shot at MPB yet, and until it has, we may be overlooking the biggest MPB magic bullet the world has ever seen.

Anyway, that's all from me! hehe

Along with questions about Densiti, we get a lot of questions about soy, and the "safety" of soy including in this thread.

Today I ran across a well-written article which goes over a lot of the rumors about soy:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/soy-blessing-or-curse_b_673912.html

In essence, he comes to the conclusion that a lot of the fears about soy are likely overblown, as I well know myself as a long-time soy consumer. Just thought some of you guys might be interested in reading the article...

Eric

Hoppipolla - I agree with eric, I do not think we will see an S-equol supplement that really works, and if one exists I believe it may not work as expected, because it very well maybe the intestinal flora that is needed maximize the efficacy for hair loss.

I think it's better to be an equol producer, rather than take an S-equol supplement.

Did anyone see that post by lucky13?