DIM Results and Liver Detox

goten574 wrote:How bad was your gyno? Has much has it improved and in what time frame?

I've been using Source Naturals DIM for 1 and a half months and haven't seen a reduction in my gyno. Please can you tell me how long you've been using DIM for and is it 1 capsule per day? Can you link me to the products you buy (preferably from iHerb.com) and tell me the exact dosage? I am looking to reduce my stomach fat, get my liver in better health but mainly to reduce my gyno.

goten574 wrote:What would I have to do then for a good liver cleanse? Milk Thistle is one thing right?

I have a minor case of gyno and take milk thistle for general liver protectiion. I find that when i increase the dosage it causes my nips to be a little more puffy then usual. I currently just take a minimal dosage because of this. I also find that gingko biloba has a similar effect because of it's estrogenic qualities. I have no studies to back this up or anything, but i did isolate these two supps as the culprit for this reaction. Im not saying they were at all responsible for the gyno itself, just that they seem to make it look worse then it actually is. Take it for what it's worth i guess.

The controversy about plant estrogens or phytoestrogens

There seems to be a common misconception in the natural health community that women with high estrogen levels should take phytoestrogen (plant estrogen) because phytoestrogens are "protective estrogens" which reduce estrogenic activity. It is believed that phytoestrogens compete with endogenous estrogens for estrogen receptors. When the estrogen receptors are occupied by phytoestrogens, cell divisions are reduced because phytoestrogens are "weak estrogens". This theory made sense to me until my own experience showed otherwise. With my endometriosis, my pain level was a measurement for my condition. When I tried Don Quei, Licorice, Ginseng and Royal Jelly, I did feel better initially for a few weeks because they helped my blood circulation. As I continued to take these remedies, my pain would come back with a vengeance, more severe than before. I realized that weak estrogens could add up significantly if given enough time. I believe that many women are misled by initial feelings of wellness without realizing that longer periods of usage actually makes the problem worse. Many other endometriosis sufferers that I know also have had similar experiences with phytoestrogen. After my personal experience, my belief is that weak plant estrogens may replace our own more potent estrogens for receptor sites, but our own estrogens still have to go somewhere if the liver is incapable of eliminating them.

In Townsend Letters for Doctors and Patients (January, 1997 issue), Ray Peat, a renowned biologist in the U.S., stated that "the concept of a protective estrogen is very similar to the idea of protective mutagens or protective carcinogens". He mentioned that "Alexander Lipshuts demonstrated that a continuous, weak estrogenic stimulus was immensely effective in producing first fibromas, then cancer, in one organ after another, and the effect was not limited to the reproductive system". For example, the brain and liver, which also have estrogen receptors, may grow tumours too.

Interestingly, one of the three common estrogens, Estriol, has similar properties. Being a less potent cell stimulant, Estriol was once classified as an estrogen antagonist. In the book Estrogens in the Environment [see Reference 1 at the end of this section], it was mentioned "because it failed to induce breast tumors in susceptible rodent strains and appeared to block such induction by Estradiol and Estrone, it was considered to be a safe estrogen". However, later studies showed that Estriol was safe only if it was administered as a single injection. A continuous administration of Estriol showed the same responses from that induced by Estradiol which is the most potent estrogen. Continuous administration of Estriol was also shown to induce breast tumors in rodents.

How to reduce estrogen levels and stagnation of blood circulation?

Perform daily physical exercise, which reduces estrogen production and stress, and also reduces stagnation. It promotes a healthy circulatory system and activates the liver. I found the Chinese exercise Y-Dan, which I have been doing every morning for years, is very beneficial. However, it does not have to be any particular kind of exercise, as long as it involves a lot of deep breathing and stretching.
Learn to relax and reduce stress. Relaxation opens up blood vessels and relaxes different organs.
Perform cleansing and strengthening of the liver in order to eliminate estrogen more efficiently.
Avoid or minimize estrogen-containing foods or herbs. Foods that weaken the liver or kidneys as mentioned in Section 1 of this article should also be avoided.

HERBS
Anise, hops, fennel, black cohosh, milk thistle, clover, red clover, Don Quai, licorice, ginseng, royal jelly, peony, nettle, sage, fenugreek, evening primrose oil, burdock, chamomiles, rhubarb

FOODS
French bean, date palm, dates, garlic, pomegranate, apple, soyabean, chick pea, cherry, alfalfa, soya sprouts, cow pea, green beans, red beans, split peas, flaxseed, raspberry, carrot and squash (both have beta carotene)

Generally I have found that estrogen contents in foods are less than in herbs.

I have corresponded with Julia Chong a lady that runs sensiblehealth.com dealing with liver issues and estradiol metabolism and she claims the best way she uses to lower estradiol is using these two tinctures which increase the amount of eatrdsiol metabolised and reduced in the body. They help the liver lower estradiol similliar to DIM but apparently more effectively. The chionese bitter is a combo of bulperum and genatin which detoxes liver and balances hormones and the other tincture is coptis which increases bile flow to remove stangant and old estradiol. I have used and they seem to work. I got better results erection and libidowise than i did with DIM but i want to be sure these were responible and not the other herbal concoctions i took.

Whenever i am feeling my best in terms of mood, energy and overall sense of well being is when i have the best morning wood and erectile performance as well as reduced gymo. This tells me that e2 is in range and has lowered. I have also been on a herbal restart fro the past 10 months so wanted to see if anyone else has noticed benefits with chinese bitters and coptis tinctures or are my results solely down to the restart. I know when i added the bitters my chest fimed up. Next came more atronger morning wood and a stronger libido. I have since been off and the effects remain.

Julia chong said Chinese bitters and coptis are used on women to lower their estrogen domianance and has been used for years and is effective.

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It simply improves the natural eradicating of estradiol by the liver whereas armidex is a chemical that stops the conversion to estradiol. I must have sluggish liver hence why my estradiol was high.

The liver eliminates estrogens through bile and urine. Being an effective bile flow stimulator, Coptis helps the liver to eliminate estrogen more efficiently by carrying more estrogens out of the body through bile ... One of our products, "Chinese Bitters", has been used successfully to induce menstruation by cleansing the liver and eliminating estrogens more efficiently. A woman in Hawaii had no period for 18 months. She had her period in 15 days after she started using "Chinese Bitters". Another young woman in Ontario, Canada had no period for 3 years. She used "Chinese Bitters" for more than a month without success. However, when she used "Coptis" (another of our products) in conjunction with "Chinese Bitters", her period started in 5 days. The liver eliminates estrogens through bile and urine. Being an effective bile flow stimulator, Coptis helps the liver to eliminate estrogen more efficiently by carrying more estrogens out of the body through bile.

Goes well with juice or just plain water. Not as bad as other tinctures. I take this to help my liver with excess hormones. Can't really tell you if it does exactly that or not. I have used dandelion and I like it, but it makes me pee alot. I can't use milk thistle because it is mildly estrogenic and I don't need any more.

The effects of the phytoestrogens are very complex, because they modify the sensitivity of cells to natural estrogens, and also modify the metabolism of estrogens, with the result that the effects on a given tissue can be either pro-estrogenic and anti-estrogenic.

For example, the flavonoids, naringenin, quercetin and kaempherol (kaempherol is an antioxidant, a phytoestrogen, and a mutagen) modify the metabolism of estradiol, causing increased bioavailability of both estrone and estradiol. (W. Schubert et al., "Inhibition of 17-beta-estradiol metabolism by grapefruit juice in ovariectomized women," Maturitas (Ireland) 30(2-3), 155-163, 1994)

Why do plants make phytoestrogens? There is some information indicating that these compounds evolved to regulate the plants' interactions with other organisms -- to attract bacteria, or to repel insects, for example, rather than just as pigment-forming materials. (Baker, 1995) The fact that some of them bind to our "estrogen receptors" is probably misleading, because of their many other effects, including inhibiting enzyme functions involved in the regulation of steroids and prostaglandins. Their biochemistry in animals is much more complicated than that of natural estrogens, which is itself so complicated that we can only guess what the consequences might be when we change the concentration and the ratio of substances in that complex system. (See the quotation in the Notes below from Velardo et al.)

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Estrogen's effects, ranging from shock to cancer, all seem to relate to an interference with the use of oxygen. Different estrogens have different affinities for various tissues, and a given substance is likely to have effects other than estrogenicity, and the presence of other substances will modify the way a tissue responds, but the stressful shift away from oxidative production of energy is the factor that all estrogens have in common. Otherwise, how could suffocation and X-irradiation have estrogenic effects?

J. T. Velardo et al., "Effect of various steroids on gestation and litter size in rats," Fertility and Sterility 7(4), 301-311, 1956. "...certain metabolites of estrogenic and progestative substances that were previously considered to be 'weak' or inert may well play a role in the reproductive process." "We have been impressed with the probability that any endocrine receptor-organ response is not accomplished by the independent action of one hormone alone. It appears more likely that such response is the physiological expression of the sum total of the biologic hormones and their metabolites in concert on the receptor organs."

anthonyspencer54 wrote:@Columbo:

Great info. I wonder then if my liver wasn't just in really bad shape. My fiberless diet for a long time (also free of any form of bitters) was probably doing little to help sequester any bile and excrete it so more could be made. Perhaps despite the estrogenic effect of milk thistle, I still saw some benefits just from the cleaning of my liver.

I'm going to do more research on these additional bitters the doc mentions. I may be switching to them in the future, almost certainly dandelion, as I can just get them from the yard haha. Thanks for the information.