CS: the italian study on spermine and spermidine?

CS: back then I was hoping you would have commented on the studies I cited... perhaps you didn't see my post...

https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t206-l-arginine-l-pyroglutamate-l-lysine-hci-l-ornithine-hci-for-hair

magic_gro wrote:there's an Italian study (on humans!) by Giuliani that says they grow hair both when taken systemically and topically.

somewhere else i also read they increase the lifespan of fruit flies... but alas anything you do to fruit flies makes them live longer, just like anything you do to lab rats makes them grow hair...

http://www.hair2010.org/abstract/96.asp
http://www.bioscalin.it/pdf/Giuliani.pdf
http://www.bioscalin.it/cronobiogenina/pdf/clinico.pdf

they compared in a double blind study three groups of people treated with:

A) just spermidine
B) spermidine along with their old Bioscalin (TM) formulation
C) placebo

bottom line: spermidine is the ingredient that makes the difference. the addition of the ingredients from their old formulation seems to provide no significant boost

another abstract on spermidine and polyamines in general...

http://www.hair2010.org/abstract/2.asp

so, what would be your take on these?

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_index.asp?cls=38183

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_index.asp?cls=38182

thanks!

Hm, don't read Italian, but how much Spermine and/or Spermidine was used in the solution that was applied to human test subjects?

This study below may seem unrelated, but it's not. Will explain in a moment...

Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2011 Apr 30. [Epub ahead of print]
New perspectives in glutamate and anxiety.
Riaza Bermudo-Soriano C, Perez-Rodriguez MM, Vaquero-Lorenzo C, Baca-Garcia E.
Source
Department of Psychiatry, Ramón y Cajal University Hospital, Madrid, Spain.

Anxiety and stress-related disorders, namely posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), generalized anxiety disorder (GAD), obsessive-compulsive disorder (ODC), social and specific phobias, and panic disorder, are a major public health issue. A growing body of evidence suggests that glutamatergic neurotransmission may be involved in the biological mechanisms underlying stress response and anxiety-related disorders. The glutamatergic system mediates the acquisition and extinction of fear-conditioning. Thus, new drugs targeting glutamatergic neurotransmission may be promising candidates for new pharmacological treatments. In particular, N-methyl-d-aspartate receptors (NMDAR) antagonists (AP5, AP7, CGP37849, CGP39551, LY235959, NPC17742, and MK-801), NMDAR partial agonists (DCS, ACPC), α-amino-3-hydroxyl-5-methyl-4-isoxazole-propionate receptors (AMPARs) antagonists (topiramate), and several allosteric modulators targeting metabotropic glutamate receptors (mGluRs) mGluR1, mGluR2/3, and mGluR5, have shown anxiolytic-like effects in several animal and human studies. Several studies have suggested that polyamines (agmatine, putrescine, spermidine, and spermine) may be involved in the neurobiological mechanisms underlying stress-response and anxiety-related disorders. This could mainly be attributed to their ability to modulate ionotropic glutamate receptors, especially NR2B subunits. The aim of this review is to establish that glutamate neurotransmission and polyaminergic system play a fundamental role in the onset of anxiety-related disorders. This may open the way for new drugs that may help to treat these conditions.

We now understand why polyamines might work, because they are anti-anxiety agents.

For example, L-Ornithine is an anti-anxiety agent, it helps improve sleep and it is a precursor to putrescine, which is a polyamine. Moreover, The synthesis of the enzyme ornithine decarboxylase stimulates the formation of polyamine chains, responsible for the of the matrix cell proliferation and, consequently, the growth of hair. Any mechanism that can alter one or more of these metabolic steps leading to a block of hair growth, with an interruption during the anagen and telogen and the transition to a next hair loss. The induction of apoptosis dermal papilla cells contributes to trigger a destabilization of the hair follicle.

Spermidine is present in milk to stimulate the cell proliferation in the newborn. Hmmmm, a case for raw milk?

It's important to consider that a B12 deficiency is associated with a deficiency in concentrations of the polyamines putrescine, spermidine, and spermine.

If stomach acid is low, that also usually means a lack of intrinsic factor to assimilate Vitamin B12. I would suggest vegans find a way to increase their B12.

http://ebm.rsmjournals.com/cgi/content/full/228/9/1069

they put half a milligram of spermidine per capsule (all the other ingredients show little benefit from their own paper, but dropping them would have been like discrediting the product they had been selling for the past 20 years

300 mg methionine
90 mg vitamin C
15 mg vitamin E
9.0 mg calcium pantothenate
7.5 mg zinc Chelate
5.0 mg poliphenols from red grapes skin
2.0 mg vitamin B6
1.25 mg copper chelate
0.5 mg spermidine
0.3 mg folic acid
0.05 mg biotin

they also do a a gel and a shampoo but i have no idea of the amount of spermidine in there (i just noticed they call it "spermidine hcl" there):

hair gel: http://www.farmamica.com/store/dettview1_l2.php?id=3109
shampoo: http://www.bioscalin.it/shampoo/cose_bio.htm


this is the source i had found back then:

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_index.asp?cls=38183

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_index.asp?cls=38182

but now i found an even cheaper source of spermine and spermidine:

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/Lookup.do?N5=All&N3=mode+matchpartialmax&N4=spermine&D7=0&D10=spermine&N1=S_ID&ST=RS&N25=0&F=PR

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/Lookup.do?N5=All&N3=mode+matchpartialmax&N4=spermidine&D7=0&D10=spermidine&N1=S_ID&ST=RS&N25=0&F=PR

depending on which one one chooses, the daily gelatine/vegetable capsule could make up to around one third to one half or the daily price of either spermine/spermidine

i wonder if these italian guys go with spermidine because it is better or because it is even cheaper!!!

Here's a product containing 5 milligrams per serving:

http://tinyurl.com/689v2dk

mmm that's like 1 dollar per tablet... if you do the maths, it seems like they have a 95% margin!!!

magic_gro wrote:mmm that's like 1 dollar per tablet... if you do the maths, it seems like they have a 95% margin!!!

Yes, true however the links you provided are for company resellers and it doesn't come in capsules. Still it's quite a difference in price. I wonder how many milligrams or micrograms are found in food.

Here is something interesting:

http://www.nature.com/ncb/journal/v11/n11/full/ncb1109-1277.html

This reminds me of an older thread having to do with putting the ejaculate fluid on the scalp (a free source of the stuff).

I'm thinking that L-Ornithine is an easier way to acquires these polyamines.

http://www.impactaging.com/papers/v1/n12/abs/100110a.html

Full study:

http://elegans.imbb.forth.gr/worms/PDF/NCBspermidine.pdf

CS: awesome finds!!!

i think one of us could order this stuff using his company address and they'll probably ship it...

capsule filler + different sizes capsules. fill one of each and also take along one empty one of each. go to fry's at the precision scale corner. weight an empty and a full capsule of each, and you know how much of this stuff goes into each capsule. fill ziploc bags and dispatch to fellow members

the problem is if someone orders it, advancing the money, and then nobody wants it

CS: in this thread you mentioned ornithine again...

quoting myself from that same old thread at https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t206-l-arginine-l-pyroglutamate-l-lysine-hci-l-ornithine-hci-for-hair

magic_gro wrote:the reasoning I had made for those three was: lysine must be good for hair. arginine and ornithine are used by the body to make spermine, which apparently grows hair according to an italian study... couldn't find any spermine supplement so I tried those two together. Found a supplement from vitaminshoppe with 1250mg of arginine and 750mg of ornithine per tablet...

the problem that I had on 1.25g arginine + 0.75g ornithine was an instant shed, like the very next day under the shower i would shed like there's no tomorrow. now i also gather that ornithine is used to make arginine by the body. i am tempted to just order ornithine powder... in case there's any chance i won't shed on that alone wthout the arginine... is there any hope i won't be just wasting some money?

i gather that from the latest findings on the hypo-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis stuff you recommend the following:

- horny goat weed,
- ginseng,
- l-ornithine,
- pregenolone,
- rhodiola.

again, i don't know if I myself can consume ornithine... what else could be used in its place?

also, is there anything else possibly useful that i am missing from the above list?

thank you in advance!
-magic_gro-

CausticSymmetry wrote:I would suggest vegans find a way to increase their B12.

grapefruit contains large quantities of spermidine, but it causes kidney stones

magic_gro wrote:CS: in this thread you mentioned ornithine again...

quoting myself from that same old thread at https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t206-l-arginine-l-pyroglutamate-l-lysine-hci-l-ornithine-hci-for-hair

magic_gro wrote:the reasoning I had made for those three was: lysine must be good for hair. arginine and ornithine are used by the body to make spermine, which apparently grows hair according to an italian study... couldn't find any spermine supplement so I tried those two together. Found a supplement from vitaminshoppe with 1250mg of arginine and 750mg of ornithine per tablet...

the problem that I had on 1.25g arginine + 0.75g ornithine was an instant shed, like the very next day under the shower i would shed like there's no tomorrow. now i also gather that ornithine is used to make arginine by the body. i am tempted to just order ornithine powder... in case there's any chance i won't shed on that alone wthout the arginine... is there any hope i won't be just wasting some money?

i gather that from the latest findings on the hypo-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis stuff you recommend the following:

- horny goat weed,
- ginseng,
- l-ornithine,
- pregenolone,
- rhodiola.

again, i don't know if I myself can consume ornithine... what else could be used in its place?

also, is there anything else possibly useful that i am missing from the above list?

thank you in advance!
-magic_gro-

I believe it was the L-arginine causing the problem, not so much the L-Ornithine, but I could be wrong.

Instead of trying all of these items, would instead experiment and see if any of them work. I would include Panax ginseng as part of that list of things to try. Also Pregnenolone has to be transdermal, not oral.

transdermal applied where? on the spot of hairloss?

this one seems to be good:

http://www.iherb.com/Life-Flo-Health-Organic-Living-Pregnenolone-2-oz-57-g/15119?at=0

this one is liposomal and also has progesterone (which dr. Klein adds to his Remox and Promox line claiming it binds to DHT receptors):

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Solutions-Natural-Progesterone-Liposomal-Skin-Cream-Scent-Free-3-oz-85-g/779?at=0

thanks!