Detumescence Therapy- dedicated volunteers wanted

JDawg wrote:

Complexx wrote:We know how to stop hair loss, we know how to reverse the MPB process and regrow hair, we even know what causes an overproduction of DHT in the scalp in the first place... What I see missing here is the patience and motivation. It honestly seems like some of you guys fear stepping out of your comfort zone... Almost as if you WANT to be bald. Maybe it's because you've been fucked over one too many times before, idk, but just know that time waits for no man. Some of you guys I feel will be "kicking yourselves" when us DT'ers regrow our hair and move on with our lives.

Manuals really weren't on people's radars a couple of years ago and are worthless to the Big Pharma Companies/FDA. If you somehow think that there will ever be a "scientific study" on manuals that lasts for 2 or more years, you're insane. Brian J Freund already tried it, and even though the results in his study were just as good (if not better) than the results one can get with propecia, they cut his funds because it is "easier" and more "convenient" to take a pill instead of receiving Botox shots to scalp muscles and loosening your scalp.

Complexx, chill. "We know how to reverse the MPB process" is such a bold claim, and btw not everything works for everybody. And if DT is the cure for everyone all the time then no one will have to "kick (them)self" because all they have to do is start DT and all their hair will grow back eventually. So once all you DT'ers start posting all those full head pics (just like you yourself hope Drexx does) showing all that regrowth everyone will jump on board.

I don't think there's anything wrong with DT, but I don't think anyone on this board needs zealots beating the drum so hard.

Also, did Brian Freund do a study on manuals beyond the botox one? Or is that the study you're referring to?

The study I'm referring to does in fact reverse MPB on most and stops MPB for all test subjects. There are 3 studies like this already man (including the DT study, which once again is still a study)

& yes, the Botox study. He was on to something before they cut his funds... The study wasn't long enough IMO. You combine dermarolling, and the Botox shots, or just DT and the Botox shots, or even DT alone IMO & you've got full regrowth. I am not a skeptic for 3 reasons..

1) There is scientific evidence backing this shit up

2) There is pretty strong anecdotal evidence backing this up

3) it's working for me (don't care if anybody believe me)

This is the cure man... Not trying to be a dick, I just wish you'd try it instead of ask and depend on pics... It's free and only takes 20 minutes a day to do.

Off topic: Just wanted to mention that MSM has cured my "hot temple syndrome" after not doing DT for a week.. Cooled them off significantly... Hmm.

CaptainGiggles wrote:

Complexx wrote:

CaptainGiggles wrote:Peach fuzz.
On my crown.
It felt rough initially, I took it for flakey dead skin. Until I had my mom look at my scalp and she saw teenie tiny blonde hairs all over my crown which she says weren't there before. New follicles are also appearing, they're black but don't have hair sprouting out just yet. I don't possess a microscopic camera, and my dslr is near useless to track this kind of progress. For the first time since I started losing hair, I'm happy. It seems to be working, and I'm almost three months into it. I will do this for however llong it takes to grow back everything. I'm pretty confident about DT and shall post pictures when they're more cosmetically apparent

Thank you and everyone else for their anecdotes! Is this the first strategy you've used time you combat your hair loss?

Btw, I'm pretty sure those black spots (am I right when I say black spots? On your scalp are dormant follicles awakening, not new follicles... Either way though, great sign! This happened to me as well earlier on

I've tried dermarolling, headstanding, various oils and herbs, nail rubbing, and one or two other things and none of them worked like DT. I never actually stuck to any of those methods as diligently as DT, mostly because of this thread. People like you and Drex have some wonderful posts on here. And yeah you're right, but I'd rather call them black dots. They're getting more and more prominent, I can feel them when I run my finger tips over that area.
Another thing I'd like to report is scalp laxity. It's so much more pliable now, I can pretty much pinch my entire crown and a bit of my frontal region. I will work more on loosening my scalp from now on as well.

Good work man! Those black dots are where on your scalp btw? Frontal or crown?

I'm glad that you're sticking with this man.... I don't think you will regret it one bit. I'm planning on experimenting with Emu, Castor, and MAYBE some Aloe on top of DT (going to apply it like once or twice a week... Or maybe more) and I will let you guys know soon. But DT is nearly all I really need at the moment... Adding those topicals will more than likely compliment the DT. Also, MSM is really, really effective in my opinion & best thing about it besides actually taking it is that it's dirt cheap.

Anyways, good shit man... Keep the results coming

Complexx wrote:

CaptainGiggles wrote:

Complexx wrote:

CaptainGiggles wrote:Peach fuzz.
On my crown.
It felt rough initially, I took it for flakey dead skin. Until I had my mom look at my scalp and she saw teenie tiny blonde hairs all over my crown which she says weren't there before. New follicles are also appearing, they're black but don't have hair sprouting out just yet. I don't possess a microscopic camera, and my dslr is near useless to track this kind of progress. For the first time since I started losing hair, I'm happy. It seems to be working, and I'm almost three months into it. I will do this for however llong it takes to grow back everything. I'm pretty confident about DT and shall post pictures when they're more cosmetically apparent

Thank you and everyone else for their anecdotes! Is this the first strategy you've used time you combat your hair loss?

Btw, I'm pretty sure those black spots (am I right when I say black spots? On your scalp are dormant follicles awakening, not new follicles... Either way though, great sign! This happened to me as well earlier on

I've tried dermarolling, headstanding, various oils and herbs, nail rubbing, and one or two other things and none of them worked like DT. I never actually stuck to any of those methods as diligently as DT, mostly because of this thread. People like you and Drex have some wonderful posts on here. And yeah you're right, but I'd rather call them black dots. They're getting more and more prominent, I can feel them when I run my finger tips over that area.
Another thing I'd like to report is scalp laxity. It's so much more pliable now, I can pretty much pinch my entire crown and a bit of my frontal region. I will work more on loosening my scalp from now on as well.

Good work man! Those black dots are where on your scalp btw? Frontal or crown?

I'm glad that you're sticking with this man.... I don't think you will regret it one bit. I'm planning on experimenting with Emu, Castor, and MAYBE some Aloe on top of DT (going to apply it like once or twice a week... Or maybe more) and I will let you guys know soon. But DT is nearly all I really need at the moment... Adding those topicals will more than likely compliment the DT. Also, MSM is really, really effective in my opinion & best thing about it besides actually taking it is that it's dirt cheap.

Anyways, good shit man... Keep the results coming

Mostly on the crown, I have severe diffuse thinning. But I can tell you this, the hairs along my hairline seem to be thickening ever so slightly. My receded temples don't look as bad as they used to. I don't go as hard on the frontal as the crown though.
Stupid question: what does MSM do, can you gimme a short summary?

rofl wrote:me too.  my final opinion will be after i see the comparison pics at the end.

watever the outcome is, id like drex to know, despite being a skeptic, i am grateful for the effort he is making.  I want this to work as much as anyone.  genuinely.

honestly, dude... with the time you've spent doubting this method you could have done the 10 month therapy and found out for yourself. christ!

lots of things grow vellus for people

so unless something grows terminals, its not a big deal.

drexxx clams this to be the case.

i cant tell from his series of super zoomed no reference points different area pics. i dont believe he would be trying to deceive anyone, but id want to judge for myself.

Could someone please direct me to the 3 studies Complex was talking about.

Hilikeabeard, not that i give a crap what u think of me since u resort to name calling, when our opinions differ (calling me a bitch)  i only have so much hair left, and i dont want to risk doing something that may well make it fall out(as some others have reported) before i know that it will grow back.  
kind regards.

Here's my head, post 3 months of DT. (Sorry for shitty pictures)
I'm not sure if you can see any tiny regrowth, but it's there.
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Here's another one, dead centre of my crown. It's blurry, but you can make out the bumps/black dots I was talking about" />

As frustrating as hair loss or thinking about it may be, it's important to move on in one way or another. In most cases, being obsessed with hair loss or anything physical about yourself and thinking about it all the time is an indicator of a personality disorder or something similar. People who received enough emotions when they were little and they developed healthily throughout their youth and weren't neglected emotionally with a need of isolation or self judgement or self absorption or obsession, are happy no matter what. I am sure we all know these "healthy" people, or some may not because of their subjective projection of them. Anyway these people are happy and outgoing no matter if they're bald, skinnyfat, fat, and in any other way not "perfect". They aren't scared of physical aging because to them that doesn't exist. If we were to subject people on this forum to a full psychiatric test 99% of them would have some impairments from the past that manifest themselves nowadays, in this form or another. This would be the case with all the other hair loss forums as well, and the entire bodybuilding.com forum member list along with any other website or organization that is based on the outside appearance , because that is only important when one isn't satisfied/happy with whom he/she is from the inside, and that isn't his/her own direct fault but it's impossible to heal yourself on your own when you are subjected to something for your entire life. This may all sound mambo jumbo but this is science. Modern one may I add. The same kind of obsession that involves hair loss in this matter also involves a not even a need but a "must" for perfect diet, supplements,aesthetics and all the other factors as well that will manifest themselves on the outside.

Now having said all of this you can stop worrying about your hair loss or think about it less because there's just one thing you have to do directly with which you can help yourself regrow some hair or maintain it besides sleeping, eating relatively well and being somewhat physically active. The fact is, you can go and take the meds for hair like finasteride and such or be a daily minox addict, and be a victim of your own psych for the rest of your life. Or you can do pretty much the MOST you can do as far as your own body and resources come. Once or twice a day, you take your hands, you press down hard in your scalp with your fingers, and you move it around , stretch it, scrunch it from the sides up and other way you can think of, do that for some minutes until you feel you've done something then pinch for some more minutes throughout your scalp, focus on areas you want the most from. And that's it, the only part of the day when you have to think about your hair. 15-20 minutes a day. And then shut your brain of in regards to that. Also in the morning and evening, when you're home, take your brush and scratch your scalp a bit but you don't really have to think about it, just make it your second nature the same as brushing your teeth or taking a piss. There are researches and facts out there that prove manual stimulation can do a lot of good work for your hair and even regrow it if you do it CONSISTENTLY. And the only way you're gonna keep doing this until the day you die is if you don't think about it but also think about it enough so that you don't forget to do it. Minimal daily thinking. So, what are anyone's choices in regard to this. Firstly, go on "professional medical" substances and live with it. Secondly, do nothing and embrace yourself. Thirdly, embrace yourself but do something minimal everyday to try to regrow your hair which really doesn't take any time and not even that much of a physical effort, and quite anecdotally you may as well regrow your entire hair in a year or 2 lifespan, till then it won't even matter to you that much but it would just make you feel that much better knowing you did at least something and either maintained what you have up there or regrew some. To each his own.

Bottomline, the less you think about it the better of you'll be, and do something daily and intensely but for a short period of time and many researches and theories support you in your journey of regrowth. Also, when people say "DT" , it implies some miraculous strategy or something and like that, by itself it presents a problem. So don't look at it as DT cuz if you're not already doing it you will never start. Look at it as , once or twice a day, from the present day onwards forever, I will press hard in my scalp, move it around a bit, loosen it up, get some flow up there, and pinch it a bit. for 15-20 minutes a day at least. This way you can stick with it forever as it's really only 2% of your awake time if you sleep for 8 hours a day and it's by far the best thing you can do to do something about your head. Either that or go take meds your choice.

3.5 month DT update for NW3V head:

I'm getting a little bit of action in my temples. Hairs are popping up near hair line.

My bald crown looks the same by eye (i.e. completely bald), however, I snapped some photos of it with my phone under my bright bathroom light and it's full of black vellus hairs. It even has that circular pattern that everyone has on their crown. Now I've been brushing for two years so I'm not sure if it's because of that or if DT has brought it back. I'll monitor it and report back.

I strongly recommend others to take flash photos of their bald areas - the camera picks up shit that our eyes won't.

Meanwhile, all this finger pressing has flattened half of the Mt Fuji bump I have on top of my head.

My scalp is also VERY loose now. It used to be tight after work, but now it's still fairly loose come COB.

Keep the updates coming, fellas.

here is a study done in Brazil that backs up the claim of how DT works.  In the study a girl has a severe case of scalp edema (swelling, build up of fluid under the scalp) and it has caused hair loss and slowing of growth.  As we have discussed many times before bald people have a swollen scalp and DT may work by reduced this swelling, it even said it in the study but they referred to it as "grease".  http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0365-05962010000100012&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

Also, here is another that details two men with Lipedematous alopecia.  Apparently, the scalp thickens and swells because of decreased lymphatic drainage among other things and it causes diffuse hair loss.

http://escholarship.org/uc/item/88n8z4m5

rofl wrote:Hilikeabeard, not that i give a crap what u think of me since u resort to name calling, when our opinions differ (calling me a bitch)  i only have so much hair left, and i dont want to risk doing something that may well make it fall out(as some others have reported) before i know that it will grow back.  
kind regards.

do you see ANYONE who this is making their hair worse who's done it for more than 6 months? oh screw it i'll answer for you, no... no you don't.

I noticed some people think it's about 20 min. of therapy/day. I remember we are talking here about 40 min. divided in two 20 min. sessions daily, am I right ?

hiilikeyourbeard wrote:

rofl wrote:Hilikeabeard, not that i give a crap what u think of me since u resort to name calling, when our opinions differ (calling me a bitch)  i only have so much hair left, and i dont want to risk doing something that may well make it fall out(as some others have reported) before i know that it will grow back.  
kind regards.

do you see ANYONE who this is making their hair worse who's done it for more than 6 months? oh screw it i'll answer for you, no... no you don't.

This definitely works! I know from my pictures using a flash. I'm only 2 months in and I've seen spurts of hair all at one from 10-21 every once and a while. The pictures don't lie. If I didn't see the new regrowth I could doubt the method. But I know it works. Besides the science being there the method is showing me clear results. i dont understand how hair can take 3months to cycle since I've had a lot of new regrowth. I wish I only new about it earlier! I strongly suggest everyone starts as soon as possible. You will definitely regret it if you don't!

ANewHope wrote:I noticed some people think it's about 20 min. of therapy/day. I remember we are talking here about 40 min. divided in two 20 min. sessions daily, am I right ?

That's right mate, although I do it pretty much whoever I can. Once the fibrosis is gone and the skins back to normal your hair is free to grow. So I'm going all out!

ANewHope wrote:I noticed some people think it's about 20 min. of therapy/day. I remember we are talking here about 40 min. divided in two 20 min. sessions daily, am I right ?

That's why taking a study literally sometimes limits your freedom. Yes in the study they did 20 min/2 times a day allegedly. However we are talking about breaking things under scalp and restoring it's balance and promoting flow and all that good jazz. So it took for them supposedly 10 months to regrow from something that looks like a NW4 to something that's even below NW1. So if you do it 4 times per day spaced out evenly you may or may not see results even faster. If you do it once a day you may or may not see slower results. This is where people are raging because the study there is really vague and doesn't have any perimeters. I don't doubt that this works or can only help. However no one knows the diminishing returns of the scalp and the stuff underneath and how it reacts to hard manual stimulation. Everyone is different here. So if you do one quality session per day and it leaves you "bruised and sunburned" throughout the day there's no point really in doing another one. Maybe doing too much of this is too much stress to the scalp and doesn't produce maximum benefits etc etc. No one knows this. So for the sake of balance I'll continue to do one good rough session per day. You may do 2, or 5, or 10, or however much you want to.

hiilikeyourbeard wrote:

rofl wrote:Hilikeabeard, not that i give a crap what u think of me since u resort to name calling, when our opinions differ (calling me a bitch)  i only have so much hair left, and i dont want to risk doing something that may well make it fall out(as some others have reported) before i know that it will grow back.  
kind regards.

do you see ANYONE who this is making their hair worse who's done it for more than 6 months? oh screw it i'll answer for you, no... no you don't.

Ill answer it for you, yes, me. Im pretty close to the 6 months mark and frankly my hairline look a lot worst than it was 5 months ago. Dt will pretty much shed all the thinning hairs that you have., goodbye to all your miniaturization hairs. When I first started doing Dt, man I was sheddding so much hair from it, I still lose a couple hair when doing but not like before. I still believe in this method, but I don't go around claiming this is this is a cure when im not even 100% certain it is unlike complexx.   

boogv510 wrote:Ill answer it for you, yes, me. Im pretty close to the 6 months mark and frankly my hairline look a lot worst than it was 5 months ago. Dt will pretty much shed all the thinning hairs that you have., goodbye to all your miniaturization hairs.

This is the reason the study is really weird and the parameters suck or don't even exist. In theory, any type of stimulation that promotes better circulation and makes your scalp healthier and more vascular and less fibrotic or calcified should make your hair thicker, stronger, healthier and stop the loss and promote regrowth. On another part, there's always that question: "Can that study really be 100% true"?. The thing that sheds some disbelief for me personally, is the quality of such a groundbreaking study lol, because if it's 100% true then that doctor would've been really famous by now and everyone on earth would grow hair. On another note though, it doesn't seem fake because honestly a lot of work has been put into it. I mean who would write all that theory, measure all that crap, present those pictures and do such a long term study except the crazy Chinese people xD. Also check the reference studies at the bottom, there's a whole bunch of them. Also what about Margo and Papilla and Maliniak and just pure brushing, people have witnessed regrowth by just promoting circulation and doing something with some pressure to make the scalp looser and softer. So all in all I believe in the study and it's results. Here it gets messy though. You said you are at 6 month mark. I think the study is true and it does a lot to regrow hair back , I just think that 10 months reference is bullshit. I think that they took 100 people, and those who had hair but lost some, lets say NW 2.5 , started the therapy and regrew their hair in xyz amount of time. Those who were bald or really high norwoods though, took maybe 3 times the time it took for low deviation ones(as referred in the study) to achieve the same scalp environment. So I think that 10 months in the study is the average time it took to restore the scalp to its operational condition. From NW 2.5 to NW 1 it maybe took 6 months of daily manuals but for those who were NW 4 or 5 it maybe took 6 months just to stop the loss and make the hair thicker and to stabilize it. No matter how much you make your scalp healthy your hair still grows in phases and to get from NW 5 to NW 1 in 10 months is a bit too optimistic imo but you should certainly be able to do it in twice as much as that if there's no other problems.

massager wrote:

hiilikeyourbeard wrote:

rofl wrote:Hilikeabeard, not that i give a crap what u think of me since u resort to name calling, when our opinions differ (calling me a bitch)  i only have so much hair left, and i dont want to risk doing something that may well make it fall out(as some others have reported) before i know that it will grow back.  
kind regards.

do you see ANYONE who this is making their hair worse who's done it for more than 6 months? oh screw it i'll answer for you, no... no you don't.

This definitely works! I know from my pictures using a flash. I'm only 2 months in and I've seen spurts of hair all at one from 10-21 every once and a while. The pictures don't lie. If I didn't see the new regrowth I could doubt the method. But I know it works. Besides the science being there the method is showing me clear results. i dont understand how hair can take 3months to cycle since I've had a lot of new regrowth.  I wish I only new about it earlier! I strongly suggest everyone starts as soon as possible. You will definitely regret it if you don't!

Hey massager, good work on your results! Hair follicles actually take 1-4 months to cycle.. My point was that nobody is going to see amazing cosmetic re growth at the 3-6 month mark when hair follicles can take up to 4 months to cycle. I was actually directing that at JDawg. Some people want to see amazing pictures after a few months and that's highly unlikely, especially for people who have been bald for quite some time.

Lots of factors should be considered here though such as Resiliency, age, diet, how long the person has been bald, etc. But if you keep on doing this, I have no doubt that you will grow all of your hair.

cxcvbcvbv

Keanoseg wrote:

boogv510 wrote:Ill answer it for you, yes, me. Im pretty close to the 6 months mark and frankly my hairline look a lot worst than it was 5 months ago. Dt will pretty much shed all the thinning hairs that you have., goodbye to all your miniaturization hairs.

This is the reason the study is really weird and the parameters suck or don't even exist. In theory, any type of stimulation that promotes better circulation and makes your scalp healthier and more vascular and less fibrotic or calcified should make your hair thicker, stronger, healthier and stop the loss and promote regrowth. On another part, there's always that question: "Can that study really be 100% true"?. The thing that sheds some disbelief for me personally, is the quality of such a groundbreaking study lol, because if it's 100% true then that doctor would've been really famous by now and everyone on earth would grow hair. On another note though, it doesn't seem fake because honestly a lot of work has been put into it. I mean who would write all that theory, measure all that crap, present those pictures and do such a long term study except the crazy Chinese people xD. Also check the reference studies at the bottom, there's a whole bunch of them. Also what about Margo and Papilla and Maliniak and just pure brushing, people have witnessed regrowth by just promoting circulation and doing something with some pressure to make the scalp looser and softer. So all in all I believe in the study and it's results. Here it gets messy though. You said you are at 6 month mark. I think the study is true and it does a lot to regrow hair back , I just think that 10 months reference is bullshit. I think that they took 100 people, and those who had hair but lost some, lets say NW 2.5 , started the therapy and regrew their hair in xyz amount of time. Those who were bald or really high norwoods though, took maybe 3 times the time it took for low deviation ones(as referred in the study) to achieve the same scalp environment. So I think that 10 months in the study is the average time it took to restore the scalp to its operational condition. From NW 2.5 to NW 1 it maybe took 6 months of daily manuals but for those who were NW 4 or 5 it maybe took 6 months just to stop the loss and make the hair thicker and to stabilize it. No matter how much you make your scalp healthy your hair still grows in phases and to get from NW 5 to NW 1 in 10 months is a bit too optimistic imo but you should certainly be able to do it in twice as much as that if there's no other problems.

Things like these methods never get mainstream attention.. As I mentioned before, they cut Brian J Freunds funds... Big Pharma don't give a fuck about what can't make them money for the long term. Why should they promote something that works well and costs 0 dollars when hair loss is a multimillion/billion dollar industry in itself?

But I agree with you 100% man. Good post

why arent people more creative? all i hear is my 'hands and fingers hurt' i 'cant get any pressure or a grip' etc or 'where can i get a brush or how can i get this device?' or its too expensive

my answer is this: - use another method maybe? or think one up? or use something already made in another way?

i visualised these two approaches and then googled them to test whether they hold water, and guess what they do!!!!

1 diy massage for feet a sock with a hundred marbles. flatten and massage scalp -

cant post link so i,ll post Google search term - marble+sock+masage

( harsher alternative, prob better for our purposes- pebbles as in pebbledash in sock!)


2 pebble mat

google search term - pebble+mat+massage

do a handstand on the pebble mat (that's normally used for feet) with a towel over it and rub against the mat for five minutes and your whole head is done. * of course im assuming your physically fit!!! not rocket science.

boogv510 wrote:

hiilikeyourbeard wrote:

rofl wrote:Hilikeabeard, not that i give a crap what u think of me since u resort to name calling, when our opinions differ (calling me a bitch)  i only have so much hair left, and i dont want to risk doing something that may well make it fall out(as some others have reported) before i know that it will grow back.  
kind regards.

do you see ANYONE who this is making their hair worse who's done it for more than 6 months? oh screw it i'll answer for you, no... no you don't.

Ill answer it for you, yes, me. Im pretty close to the 6 months mark and frankly my hairline look a lot worst than it was 5 months ago. Dt will pretty much shed all the thinning hairs that you have., goodbye to all your miniaturization hairs. When I first started doing Dt, man I was sheddding so much hair from it, I still lose a couple hair when doing but not like before. I still believe in this method, but I don't go around claiming this is this is a cure when im not even 100% certain it is unlike complexx.   

Fair enough.

People should keep in kind though that a shed is nothing to be scared of... If you're consistent with this you will most likely shed and then regrow light vellus/intermediate vellus/and terminal hair. We have to stick with it and enjoy our lives. I'm glad that you are experiencing results and I hope everything goes fine for you, bud.

Complexx wrote:Things like these methods never get mainstream attention.. As I mentioned before, they cut Brian J Freunds funds... Big Pharma don't give a fuck about what can't make them money for the long term. Why should they promote something that works well and costs 0 dollars when hair loss is a multimillion/billion dollar industry in itself?

But I agree with you 100% man. Good post

Yeah this is very true however it's just retarded because baldness is a major trigger in so much people that commit suicide. There was actually a research somewhere and a whole bunch of people commit it cuz of baldness being the trigger. Also it can't really cause anything positive mostly, all baldness does is it promotes mass depression over entire world lol. Maybe the pharmaceutical industry is under NWO aka illuminati but still then how would such a study (DT) even get on the internet and not be taken down with all the similar studies as well. I mean yeah that particular study is on such a random location on the internet whoever found it and spread it around is the best detective ever.

massager wrote:

ANewHope wrote:I noticed some people think it's about 20 min. of therapy/day. I remember we are talking here about 40 min. divided in two 20 min. sessions daily, am I right ?

That's right mate, although I do it pretty much whoever I can. Once the fibrosis is gone and the skins back to normal your hair is free to grow. So I'm going all out!

dude alllllllll out. i think i could complete this therapy within 6 months no joke with how much i do it. but i'm gonna do it probably for 2 years