Search
Check Out Our Sponsors
Latest topics
TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
+12
GreatDiscovery
runaway
Innermind
TransGirl
JosephineMarie
CausticSymmetry
goten574
steve215
Decro435
theseeker
abc123
playmaker
16 posters
Page 1 of 2
Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
Surprised I haven't seen it actively pulled apart here yet...was launched a week or 2 ago and works on the basis of keeping potassium channels working properly to stop hair loss and even regrow....around the temples apparently...
Ingredients are all things we can put together and I think most already have these elements in our diets. Potassium, L Cartinine, Niacin and BCAA's
It just seems so pricey at 59.95 euro's
The lead scientist behind the product is pretty well respected and it seems like his putting his reputation on the line with this.
Ingredients are all things we can put together and I think most already have these elements in our diets. Potassium, L Cartinine, Niacin and BCAA's
It just seems so pricey at 59.95 euro's
The lead scientist behind the product is pretty well respected and it seems like his putting his reputation on the line with this.
playmaker- Posts : 39
Join date : 2009-09-25
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
oh sorry would help if I posted the link...
http://www.trx2.com/
http://www.trx2.com/
playmaker- Posts : 39
Join date : 2009-09-25
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
Posted about this before but no one seemed interested:
The recent discovery that potassium ion channels exist within the dermal papilla cells of human hair follicles provided a novel therapeutic target for researchers. Potassium ion channels have been implicated in a vast array of diseases ranging from Hepatitis C to Diabetes. These small pore-forming protein structures control the transport of potassium ions across the hair follicle’s cell membranes and are essential for maintaining the follicle’s full biological activity and function.
TRX2 scientists have demonstrated that as people experience hair loss the function of potassium channels within hair follicles diminishes. The effect is impaired membrane potential and interrupted ion transportation across the hair follicle’s cellular membranes – resulting in shrinking follicles and thinning hair.
Based on this research, TRX2 devised an elegant solution for stimulating hair growth on a molecular level: The rejuvenation of potassium ion channels within hair follicles.
TRX2™ Molecular Hair Growth Supplement consists of natural substances that our body normally manufactures at sufficient levels in healthy hair, but at insufficient quantities as we experience hair loss. TRX2™ Molecular Hair Growth Supplement is a patent pending composition of normal metabolites that has been shown in laboratory experiments to reduce hair loss and reactivate the growth of hair follicles by:
1. Maintaining the membrane potential of hair follicles
2. Stimulating the de novo synthesis of potassium channels
3. Restoring potassium channel activity & functionality
4. Hyperpolarizing hair follicles
*
TRX2™ promotes the hair follicles health and growth on a molecular level.
Boosting Energy Levels in Hair Follicles
In 2007 Foitzik et al. demonstrated that L-carnitine-L-tartrate promotes human hair growth; suggesting that L-carnitine stimulates scalp hair growth by up regulation of proliferation and down-regulation of apoptosis in follicular cells. TRX2™ products are the first to use Potassium and L-carnitine as part of their active ingredients for treating hair loss.
Research shows that L-carnitine stimulates hair growth by increasing the energy supply to the massively proliferating and insatiable anagen hair matrix – energy that is also required for the full biological activity of potassium channels in hair follicles.
Maintaining The Cell Membrane Potential of Hair Follicles
The membrane potential is the result of differing voltage between the inner and outer surfaces of a cell’s membrane. This process requires energy-driven potassium channels to move charge against a gradient. The dermal papilla cells of a healthy hair follicle (one containing sufficient potassium channels) have maximum membrane potential, sustaining the highest level of biological activity. However, as we experience hair loss, the membrane potential of these dermal papilla cells is diminished – a result of the impaired functionality of potassium channels within the hair follicle.
TRX2™ contains a compound that stimulates the synthesis of cardiolipin, a key component of the plasma membrane of dermal papilla cells in hair follicles. Cardiolipin plays a crucial role in maintaining the potential and integrity of hair follicle cell membranes. In short, TRX2™ provides the ideal lipid environment for potassium channels to flourish and function at peak efficiency.
Stimulating de novo Synthesis of Potassium Channels in Hair Follicles
The specific potassium channel found in human hair follicles has three major amino acid components: L-Leucine, Isoleucine and Valine (often referred to as BCAA).
By incorporating these components into our proprietary complex, our team has successfully found a way to replenish the membrane potential of hair cells and stimulate the synthesis of new potassium channels within hair follicles.
Stimulating Potassium Channel Activity & Functionality
Physiologically, the potassium channels of hair follicles are regulated by intracellular levels of nucleotides (e.g. ATP and ADP). Therefore, the electrical activity of a cell’s membrane is linked to its metabolism; a relationship that controls many diverse cellular functions.
The TRX2™ composition contains several sources of ATP. TRX2™ activates the transport of high-energy, food-derived products into the body’s mitochondria, where they are ultimately converted into ATP. This captured energy revitalizes potassium channels and is necessary for the regulation of ion transport across the cellular membranes.
Promotion of Hair Growth by Hyperpolarizing Hair Follicles
The TRX2™ complex, similar to the FDA approved treatment minoxidil (Rogaine™, Regaine™ or RIUP™), has several properties of known potassium channel openers. By hyperpolarizing the hair follicle’s plasma membranes, TRX2™ increases the size of shrunken follicles – resulting in longer, thicker and significantly more hair over the course of treatment.
The proprietary composition contains a natural compound, nicotinic acid, which is structurally related to minoxidil. In combination with the other TRX2™ compounds, nicotinic acid helps keep potassium channels open over time and supports the growth of healthy follicles.
TRX2™when used in combination with minoxidil
Topically applied minoxidil is one of the most widely used treatment options against male and female pattern hair loss. However, the clinical outcome of minoxidil based treatment regimen is often disappointing. In many cases the response rates are limited and efficacy decreases or disappears over time after continued use.
Originally minoxidil was developed as an oral antihypertensive drug, but a frequent side-effect was hair growth. The detailed mechanism of action of minoxidil on hair follicles is unclear. However, known as a potent potassium channel opener, it can be assumed that the drug targets the same tiny protein structures (potassium channels) TRX2™ does. Recent studies reveal that the ability of minoxidil to bind to potassium channels and function as an effective channel opener within human hair follicles varies among patients. This may be because every patient has different genetic susceptibilities.
TRX2™’s potassium channel activating nutrients work well in combination with existing minoxidil based treatment regimens such as Rogaine™ (Regaine™ or RIUP™). Our proprietary TRX2™ Hair Growth Complex has been shown in studies performed to date to boost overall efficacy of minoxidil treatment and to significantly improve the results even in those patients who have not previously experienced positive responses.
Uncovering the right formula of natural ingredients was a massive undertaking. Our dedicated team of scientists needed to design a variety of new research methods specifically for the purpose of targeting potassium ion channels for hair growth. After trying hundreds of different formulations of micro-nutrients, we centered upon the TRX2™ formula that includes a plethora of unique and powerful ingredients. This approach has allowed our company to succeed where others have failed. Our product works with your body to protect hair cells from damage and degradation. There are no side-effects, no complications and no hassle – just honest, noticeable results.
Listed below are some of the specific beneficial effects observed at the cellular level:
Cellular level
1. Increased membrane potential of dermal papilla cells in hair follicles
2. De novo synthesis of potassium channels
3. Enhanced potassium channel activity & functionality
4. Hyperpolarized hair follicles
This product is specifically designed for patients suffering from the early stages of hair loss (Norwood 1-4). Some of the benefits reported by those who regularly take three TRX2™ Molecular Hair Growth Supplement capsules per day include:
Visual level
* The cessation of hair loss
* The re-growth of hair follicles – including frontal region and temple area
* Visibly stronger & thicker hair shafts
The recent discovery that potassium ion channels exist within the dermal papilla cells of human hair follicles provided a novel therapeutic target for researchers. Potassium ion channels have been implicated in a vast array of diseases ranging from Hepatitis C to Diabetes. These small pore-forming protein structures control the transport of potassium ions across the hair follicle’s cell membranes and are essential for maintaining the follicle’s full biological activity and function.
TRX2 scientists have demonstrated that as people experience hair loss the function of potassium channels within hair follicles diminishes. The effect is impaired membrane potential and interrupted ion transportation across the hair follicle’s cellular membranes – resulting in shrinking follicles and thinning hair.
Based on this research, TRX2 devised an elegant solution for stimulating hair growth on a molecular level: The rejuvenation of potassium ion channels within hair follicles.
TRX2™ Molecular Hair Growth Supplement consists of natural substances that our body normally manufactures at sufficient levels in healthy hair, but at insufficient quantities as we experience hair loss. TRX2™ Molecular Hair Growth Supplement is a patent pending composition of normal metabolites that has been shown in laboratory experiments to reduce hair loss and reactivate the growth of hair follicles by:
1. Maintaining the membrane potential of hair follicles
2. Stimulating the de novo synthesis of potassium channels
3. Restoring potassium channel activity & functionality
4. Hyperpolarizing hair follicles
*
TRX2™ promotes the hair follicles health and growth on a molecular level.
Boosting Energy Levels in Hair Follicles
In 2007 Foitzik et al. demonstrated that L-carnitine-L-tartrate promotes human hair growth; suggesting that L-carnitine stimulates scalp hair growth by up regulation of proliferation and down-regulation of apoptosis in follicular cells. TRX2™ products are the first to use Potassium and L-carnitine as part of their active ingredients for treating hair loss.
Research shows that L-carnitine stimulates hair growth by increasing the energy supply to the massively proliferating and insatiable anagen hair matrix – energy that is also required for the full biological activity of potassium channels in hair follicles.
Maintaining The Cell Membrane Potential of Hair Follicles
The membrane potential is the result of differing voltage between the inner and outer surfaces of a cell’s membrane. This process requires energy-driven potassium channels to move charge against a gradient. The dermal papilla cells of a healthy hair follicle (one containing sufficient potassium channels) have maximum membrane potential, sustaining the highest level of biological activity. However, as we experience hair loss, the membrane potential of these dermal papilla cells is diminished – a result of the impaired functionality of potassium channels within the hair follicle.
TRX2™ contains a compound that stimulates the synthesis of cardiolipin, a key component of the plasma membrane of dermal papilla cells in hair follicles. Cardiolipin plays a crucial role in maintaining the potential and integrity of hair follicle cell membranes. In short, TRX2™ provides the ideal lipid environment for potassium channels to flourish and function at peak efficiency.
Stimulating de novo Synthesis of Potassium Channels in Hair Follicles
The specific potassium channel found in human hair follicles has three major amino acid components: L-Leucine, Isoleucine and Valine (often referred to as BCAA).
By incorporating these components into our proprietary complex, our team has successfully found a way to replenish the membrane potential of hair cells and stimulate the synthesis of new potassium channels within hair follicles.
Stimulating Potassium Channel Activity & Functionality
Physiologically, the potassium channels of hair follicles are regulated by intracellular levels of nucleotides (e.g. ATP and ADP). Therefore, the electrical activity of a cell’s membrane is linked to its metabolism; a relationship that controls many diverse cellular functions.
The TRX2™ composition contains several sources of ATP. TRX2™ activates the transport of high-energy, food-derived products into the body’s mitochondria, where they are ultimately converted into ATP. This captured energy revitalizes potassium channels and is necessary for the regulation of ion transport across the cellular membranes.
Promotion of Hair Growth by Hyperpolarizing Hair Follicles
The TRX2™ complex, similar to the FDA approved treatment minoxidil (Rogaine™, Regaine™ or RIUP™), has several properties of known potassium channel openers. By hyperpolarizing the hair follicle’s plasma membranes, TRX2™ increases the size of shrunken follicles – resulting in longer, thicker and significantly more hair over the course of treatment.
The proprietary composition contains a natural compound, nicotinic acid, which is structurally related to minoxidil. In combination with the other TRX2™ compounds, nicotinic acid helps keep potassium channels open over time and supports the growth of healthy follicles.
TRX2™when used in combination with minoxidil
Topically applied minoxidil is one of the most widely used treatment options against male and female pattern hair loss. However, the clinical outcome of minoxidil based treatment regimen is often disappointing. In many cases the response rates are limited and efficacy decreases or disappears over time after continued use.
Originally minoxidil was developed as an oral antihypertensive drug, but a frequent side-effect was hair growth. The detailed mechanism of action of minoxidil on hair follicles is unclear. However, known as a potent potassium channel opener, it can be assumed that the drug targets the same tiny protein structures (potassium channels) TRX2™ does. Recent studies reveal that the ability of minoxidil to bind to potassium channels and function as an effective channel opener within human hair follicles varies among patients. This may be because every patient has different genetic susceptibilities.
TRX2™’s potassium channel activating nutrients work well in combination with existing minoxidil based treatment regimens such as Rogaine™ (Regaine™ or RIUP™). Our proprietary TRX2™ Hair Growth Complex has been shown in studies performed to date to boost overall efficacy of minoxidil treatment and to significantly improve the results even in those patients who have not previously experienced positive responses.
Uncovering the right formula of natural ingredients was a massive undertaking. Our dedicated team of scientists needed to design a variety of new research methods specifically for the purpose of targeting potassium ion channels for hair growth. After trying hundreds of different formulations of micro-nutrients, we centered upon the TRX2™ formula that includes a plethora of unique and powerful ingredients. This approach has allowed our company to succeed where others have failed. Our product works with your body to protect hair cells from damage and degradation. There are no side-effects, no complications and no hassle – just honest, noticeable results.
Listed below are some of the specific beneficial effects observed at the cellular level:
Cellular level
1. Increased membrane potential of dermal papilla cells in hair follicles
2. De novo synthesis of potassium channels
3. Enhanced potassium channel activity & functionality
4. Hyperpolarized hair follicles
This product is specifically designed for patients suffering from the early stages of hair loss (Norwood 1-4). Some of the benefits reported by those who regularly take three TRX2™ Molecular Hair Growth Supplement capsules per day include:
Visual level
* The cessation of hair loss
* The re-growth of hair follicles – including frontal region and temple area
* Visibly stronger & thicker hair shafts
abc123- Posts : 1128
Join date : 2010-07-31
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
So has anyone actually noticed some results with this?
theseeker- Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-08-27
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
Some very encouraging site testimonials.
Its only been publicly available for 2 weeks so, real world results aren't there yet.
Its only been publicly available for 2 weeks so, real world results aren't there yet.
abc123- Posts : 1128
Join date : 2010-07-31
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
That's understandable then.
I'm tempted to give this a go and report any results here.
I'm tempted to give this a go and report any results here.
theseeker- Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-08-27
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
€55 for 90 capsules... a tad expensive no?. What's to stop us just buying the ingredients individually?.
Also, you always have to take online testimonials with a grain of salt. Those testimonials look too formal and they use the trademark logo so I'd be skeptical.
Also, you always have to take online testimonials with a grain of salt. Those testimonials look too formal and they use the trademark logo so I'd be skeptical.
Decro435- Posts : 588
Join date : 2009-06-25
Age : 34
Location : Ireland
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
yeah seems too expensive...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/yourbusiness/brightideas/4268434/Thomas-Whitfield-The-Oxford-student-who-plans-to-make-baldness-a-thing-of-the-past.html
The guy behind it sounds awefully confident that this will stop hairloss especially in early stages...so im curious...will probably give it a go but I don't think it will make much of a difference for those already with good clean diets, taking the ih supplements, dealing with metal detox etc etc...
i would think if I just get L-carnitine-L-tartrate into my diet I already have ample levels of everything else. just the dosages and all that would be an issue.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/yourbusiness/brightideas/4268434/Thomas-Whitfield-The-Oxford-student-who-plans-to-make-baldness-a-thing-of-the-past.html
The guy behind it sounds awefully confident that this will stop hairloss especially in early stages...so im curious...will probably give it a go but I don't think it will make much of a difference for those already with good clean diets, taking the ih supplements, dealing with metal detox etc etc...
i would think if I just get L-carnitine-L-tartrate into my diet I already have ample levels of everything else. just the dosages and all that would be an issue.
playmaker- Posts : 39
Join date : 2009-09-25
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
I'm tempted too, but the lack of clinical trials and photographic results (Or any results at all) makes this no different then any of the other snake oils marketed towards hair loss sufferers. He has a 8-12 month window now to sell this stuff at a very high price because users are encouraged to use it for upward of 8 months to see results.
So typically for a 10 month spell of this stuff at 3 capsules a day (recommended) comes to €513 ($686). So spending €513 on something with no clinical trials or photographic evidence seems like a scam. Although I highly recommend you do it because I'd love to see results, but unfortunately most of us can't afford this..
So typically for a 10 month spell of this stuff at 3 capsules a day (recommended) comes to €513 ($686). So spending €513 on something with no clinical trials or photographic evidence seems like a scam. Although I highly recommend you do it because I'd love to see results, but unfortunately most of us can't afford this..
Decro435- Posts : 588
Join date : 2009-06-25
Age : 34
Location : Ireland
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
Here's a long thread with users who have begun TRX-2 treatment..
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3759&page=37
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3759&page=37
Decro435- Posts : 588
Join date : 2009-06-25
Age : 34
Location : Ireland
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
https://www.trx2.com/store/2010/07/27/niacin/
The above link, he says each serving contains only 0.00007 grams of niacin. But, on the bottle it actually contains 40mg of niacin per serving. WTF?
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8135&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1295388381
The above link, he says each serving contains only 0.00007 grams of niacin. But, on the bottle it actually contains 40mg of niacin per serving. WTF?
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8135&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1295388381
steve215- Posts : 117
Join date : 2010-10-11
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
i mean this link...
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3759&page=38
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3759&page=38
steve215- Posts : 117
Join date : 2010-10-11
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
Anyone here trying this?
goten574- Posts : 489
Join date : 2009-08-03
Location : UK
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
This supplement has been mentioned here a few times. It's pretty underwhelming stuff, proof that marketing really is everything.
_________________
My regimen
http://www.immortalhair.org/mpb-regimen
Now available for consultation (hair and/or health)
http://www.immortalhair.org/health-consultation
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
CausticSymmetry wrote:This supplement has been mentioned here a few times. It's pretty underwhelming stuff, proof that marketing really is everything.
Have you used it personally? Do the ingredients make sense to combat hair loss?
goten574- Posts : 489
Join date : 2009-08-03
Location : UK
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
goten574 wrote:Anyone here trying this?
I'm going to try it--compiling the ingredients on my own that is. When you do it that way, it's cheap enough to give it a whirl. I figure why not?
JosephineMarie- Posts : 353
Join date : 2010-05-11
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
Do not try this. This product does not work.
abc123- Posts : 1128
Join date : 2010-07-31
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
JosephineMarie wrote:goten574 wrote:Anyone here trying this?
I'm going to try it--compiling the ingredients on my own that is. When you do it that way, it's cheap enough to give it a whirl. I figure why not?
How much would the ingredients cost on their own for a 6 month supply from iHerb?
goten574- Posts : 489
Join date : 2009-08-03
Location : UK
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
gotten - I haven't actually calculated the cost but for sure it's a lot less than what TRX2 costs per month. I am sending you a link here in a minute by pm that may give you an idea of how much per month if you want to try the math but even then you can do cheaper than what is listed on the link. I already have the biotin and niacin in my multi, so I didn't need to purchase that. As well, I already have the L-Carnitine (it's not tartrate, but I'm going with it anyway), so all I ended up buying off of iherb is extra potassium and the branched chain amino acids.
JosephineMarie- Posts : 353
Join date : 2010-05-11
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
abc123 wrote:Do not try this. This product does not work.
Thanks abc--Though I already bought what I need and I'm going to add it to my existing regimen. However, I won't be relying on it in and of itself but using it as part of my regimen, for the time being. Right now I've seen some people say that they've notice a difference on it and some saying it's a scam. I just have to try it for myself and make my own determination.
JosephineMarie- Posts : 353
Join date : 2010-05-11
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
Regardless of whether it works or not(they are apparently releasing a paper third quarter so we will maybe see some science then) the ingredients by themselves do seem to be aimed at fixing insulin resistance(potassium, niacin and l-carnitine all target insulin sensitivity to a degree). Add zinc and magnesium and you'd have a rather interesting(albeit pricey) pill to fight insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome.
Now, if the paper and results show that this works(and they have pictures and whatnot) it would be a very interesting paper to link insulin resistance/metabolic syndrome to hairloss in genetic susceptible individuals.
Now, if the paper and results show that this works(and they have pictures and whatnot) it would be a very interesting paper to link insulin resistance/metabolic syndrome to hairloss in genetic susceptible individuals.
TransGirl- Posts : 101
Join date : 2011-03-20
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
no this will not do anything. Its a scam and everyone who bought wasted their money.
Innermind- Posts : 13
Join date : 2011-03-27
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
there is a huge thread about trx2 going on at the baldtruth forum (spencer koben).
basically users have been shouting all over trx2 in the beginning but now see very encouraging results
again who do you make of this?
basically users have been shouting all over trx2 in the beginning but now see very encouraging results
again who do you make of this?
runaway- Posts : 4
Join date : 2012-07-26
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
who is on TRX2 and which results?
seems long-term users are pretty excited about their results see
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3759&page=432
seems long-term users are pretty excited about their results see
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3759&page=432
GreatDiscovery- Posts : 38
Join date : 2012-07-21
Age : 39
Re: TRX2 - what do you guys make of this?
GreatDiscovery wrote:who is on TRX2 and which results?
seems long-term users are pretty excited about their results see
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3759&page=432
taking it since ca. 7 month. as many other users i'm still waiting to see my hairline to be restored (or at least clearly visible regrowth). however i can say that trx2 completely stopped my hair loss (to base levels) and that my hair in general have thickened up considerably. Pretty sure that it isn't a placebo effcts because i've been getting feedback from independent sources that my hair looks so much better. a client of mine even thought i did undergo hair transplant surgery because of the thicker hair
runaway- Posts : 4
Join date : 2012-07-26
Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
Similar topics
» Could you guys help me make my own caffeine topical?
» What do you guys make of what seems to be great success by this man using oils?
» new trx2 product
» TRX2, anybody heard of this?
» trx2...thoughts?
» What do you guys make of what seems to be great success by this man using oils?
» new trx2 product
» TRX2, anybody heard of this?
» trx2...thoughts?
Page 1 of 2
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
|
|
Wed May 08, 2024 9:45 pm by MikeGore
» *The first scientific evidence in 2021 that viruses do not exist*
Tue May 07, 2024 4:18 am by CausticSymmetry
» China is at it again
Tue May 07, 2024 4:07 am by CausticSymmetry
» Ways to increase adult stem cells
Mon May 06, 2024 5:40 pm by el_llama
» pentadecanoic acid
Sun May 05, 2024 10:56 am by CausticSymmetry
» Exosome Theory and Herpes
Fri May 03, 2024 3:25 am by CausticSymmetry
» Road to recovery - my own log of everything I'm currently trying for HL
Tue Apr 30, 2024 1:55 pm by JtheDreamer
» Medical Coder During C0NV!D
Sat Apr 27, 2024 4:00 pm by CausticSymmetry
» Potential Natural Products Regulation of Molecular Signaling Pathway in Dermal Papilla Stem Cells
Wed Apr 17, 2024 7:44 am by CausticSymmetry