Laser helmet

europe,

I'd highly recommend for you to call up Sunetics regarding your questions. I started typing a long reply but I'm a afraid it would take an extremely long time to post all the information. He is a nice guy to talk to and can help with all your questions.

In short , the overlap that you're referring to when you look at somebody under a Sunetics or similiar hood that "overlap" is extremely low in mW. Again, it's "extremely low." It's hardly even worth mentioning but companies will for marketing purposes. So again, it's pure hype.

As for using less diodes, I've mentioned before but try it out and see how it goes. I've personally tried many different designs and a lot less diodes before.

It seems that the consensus is to lower the exposure time. Has anyone seen positive results with a lower dosage? I too experienced positive results for the first couple of weeks. My hair did indeed feel fuller and healthier after a session, and yes, I did apply the treatment to damp hair.

A lot of interesting discussion here, and as has already been mentioned, a lot of similar results. I'm just about to get into "lasering" and bought an OMG helmet (just the foam part), but haven't found the time to build the actual device. However, after reading this post, I'm thinking of going with either the Super Grow 50 or Super Grow Dome 90 at 50lasers.com. Seems like they may be the closest consumer versions to the Sunetics 107 out there right now.

Few things I'm seeing wrong here...


#1 -- Lasering on a dry scalp. OMG, myself, JDP, Hapyman, etc. have, for a very long time, advised folks to use your helmet on a moist scalp. I use it post-shower. I also apply the IGNITE topical, which is oil-based, on the front part of my scalp (where I need the most help) there before lasering as well. I laser for 17 to 22 minutes, varying on no particular factor.

#2 -- You're getting good results for a few months, then the hair starts to fall out and you panic and stop. Bad idea. Let's look at it this way. What if you didn't use the laser helmet, and hair quality WAS NOT improving for a few months, and then all of a sudden you had a bad shed? Would we blame the LLLT then? That shed may be from any number of factors, ranging from adrenal fatigue, candida, increased drinking and carbs/sugars in diet over that period of time, increased stress, etc.

I've yet to see many folks like myself who have stuck it through thick and thin over a year. But, those who have stuck it out, such as some who I've built helmets for two falls ago, have gotten great results.

I'm all for experimenting with different treatment times, as I do believe that different skin colors and different hair colors absorb LLLT differently. I've talked to Dr. Maricle about this, and he believes this as well. Use your judgement and experiment with what you think works best for you. If it means 10 minutes 3 times a week or 25 minutes, I don't think we'll ever be able to give 100% accurate directions for anyone, even if we had a multi-million dollar study to find out the truth. There's just too many variables from individual to individual.

That's just my two cents and I'm sorry if my tone came off a bit strong here, but it's just a reflection of my passion.

Misirlou wrote:chipdog, isn't lasers supposed to slow down the process rather then regrow new hairs?

The method by which it slows down hair loss is the same method that results in regrowth. Lasers are anti-inflammatory, and by reducing inflammation, the swelled follicles open up a little bit more and more over time, resulting in hairs pushing through again.

I'm not sure why chip is upset, as he is getting some great results! Vellous to terminal is a matter of time...the tough part is getting the hair to actually pop out of the skin again. Might take a couple years to get really visible terminal hairs, but is that so hard to believe after we've had years and years of inflammatory damage to our follicles to cause the situation to begin with?

I don't know what others have experienced, but in my case, my hair did thin after starting LLLT. There are probably other factors, such as thyroid, adrenal, stress, drinking, etc, but those factors existed prior to the start of LLLT. I followed the prescribed treatment (20 min x per week) for four months, stopped for two after noticing a shed and continued for another couple of months. I stopped because I noticed shedding again.

My shedding is now very nominal now, probably 20 hair daily, with only 5-8 while washing my hair. I think it's time for another experiment. I will try lasering for 12 minutes on a damp scalp 3 per week, for a month to see what happens. My current stress level is very low, I am not drinking at all, taking the top six, staying physically active, and overall feel much better then I did during my sheds. I am also taking Propecia, and have been for the past year. I plan to start this evening and will monitor my results over the next four weeks. If shedding does not increase, I will know that it was the exposure time.

Hey, guys!!!

The only thing I can add to what JDP710 and Nidhogge have said is that to remind everyone that the reason we use so many diodes in a helmet vs. a stand is BECAUSE WE CAN. Actually, it's not really a question of why the helmets have so much... it's a question of why the stand devices have so little! The reason they have so little is because of the overlap reasons.

The further you pull back that diode, the more radically it spreads out, and that means a lot of overlapping. If you looked at this picture and imagined it was a few diodes placed closely together, you would see how they would easily start to overlap:



We don't have the overlap that stand devices have, and the power and energy levels have been calculated ad naseum. Plus, like jdp already said, the energy doesn't spread out much between diodes. The way we place them is "pretty good", and it tries to minimize the gaps and the overlaps.

The Laser Messiah helmet is extremely flexible in terms of diode placement, so someone is more than welcome to put diodes in every other hole vs. every hole, but I pretty much know what the results are going to be! CASE IN POINT FOR ALL OF THIS: Remember how god-awful the results are with lasermax 50's and 90's, and how overwhelmingly positive they are with laser helmets?? A couple of years ago, there were literally dozens and dozens of people in the forums using those devices, and they frankly sucked.

The "Sunetics G" model is a lot better than the Lasermax 50's and 90's for obvious reasons... look at the coverage:



vs.



The Sunetics CLEARLY has much better coverage (sorry I don't have a better picture of the Sunetics). More scalp contour for even energy dispersement, and it has the 107 diodes in a much more favorable location.

But let's talk about the Sunetics... as far as we in the forums are concerned, this is still pretty much a "mystery device" in terms of practical knowledge and success stories. I would expect it to be better than the lasermax, but man... Sunetics really isn't the bastion of experimentation. I know we like to think that companies have all sorts of back rooms where they are testing and testing and testing every configuration imaginable, but they aren't doing that. They make a device that they can make very well, and they sell it... and THEN they get results from it. Sunetic's primarily targets laser clinics -which means they produce high end systems geared for multiple users, and they make a huge profit on those machines. There is no interest for them to compete with a laser helmet -but I have a feeling if they did, it wouldn't be much different in principle than what we've found.

I can show pictures and talk and talk, though, but none of that really matters... the reason you hear about all sorts of results with the Laser Messiah is because literally HUNDREDS of people are using them. A lot of those are forum posters, but most "retired" after the Regrowth.com shake out -especially the vast majority that have had positive experiences.

The fact is... we don't have hundreds of people trying the Sunetics G that we can talk to. We *do* have many people that have tried the LaserMax products with a "yawn", so we can make assessments with that. Based on our forum experiments with many different dioded contraptions and the experiences with LaserMax stands, though, one rule seems to remain constant... the more coverage the better. Knowing that the LazerMax has abysmal results in the forums, you can look at that picture and make judgments pretty easily about why that is. The Sunetics device has better coverage, more diodes where they belong, and has much better results. The laser helmets we make took this a step further, applied what we learned about effective laser therapy, and offers a crap load of coverage:



...I mean an ASSLOAD of coverage! ...And it works like it's expected to work. Much much much much better than a lasermax, and I'D GUESS -don't know for sure YET- that it's be superior to *any* laser clinic device. I'd love to have a head to head study done with the Sunetics G vs. Laser Messiah!

...And it's not TOO MUCH. Each diode covers it's "own piece of scalp". Very little laser energy spreads between footprints, and the energy of the diode becomes weaker as you get towards the edge anyway.

BY ALL MEANS... please, someone build a device that more closely replicates the Sunetics model. It's not MAGIC, and it doesn't do anything (that matters) that we can't do! It's the EXACT SAME DIODES as we use, too! If it works great, that'd be awesome! I'd start making that, too, and it'd be a lot quicker -in fact, I've thought about making a better stand device with less diodes but better coverage just to sort of prove the point about greater coverage equals better results. The thing is, though... like I said before, I think I know already how it's going to turn out because of past experimentations -and it's already been proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt what design is the most effective.

Once again, though... I can talk all I want, but the results of the people using them are overwhelmingly positive. Just to discuss some numbers, I personally have made (not necessarily wired) 350 of these. I know of a couple of hundred that people have made themselves, and Nidhogge has made a crapload of them, too. So, we have the numbers to back up what we are saying, and it seems that the more coverage is the better. The science states that and the testimonials state that.

Oh... and yes, in all the decades of laser research, we are pretty much the first people to take advantage of the flexible helmet approach. Most manufacturers designed theirs to accommodate multiple users, so a conforming helmet wasn't on their minds. You simply can't share helmets with strangers in a clinical setting!

So, all I'm really trying to say is that "keep it real" about the Sunetics G. Yeah, it's the flagship of laser clinic devices. ...Laser clinics that charge up to $10,000 a year to use a machine we can build for $400. lol... I have a feeling that if the forum had a lot of Sunetic's G users, you'd be seeing a lot of the same talk that you do about the helmets! There just AREN'T Sunetic's users around in forums to post -just like there are hardly any people left that use laser helmets that post (they have all "retired" because they CAN).

Oh, one more word... I know that ChipDouglas has had a long, windy road with LLLT that he's leaving out. I could be getting this wrong -in which case he will correct me- that when he started he had recently quit propecia, and had a massive shed from it. That, of course, stopped over a few months, and I believe for the first eight or nine months he was using his first device for EXTREMELY TOO LONG (45 minutes a session??). That completely negated his treatment. After that, he switched to my device in the spring and as recently as September 24th he left a comment on my facebook saying that people were noticing that he had more hair than the previous years, and his fiancée was noticing a lot of improvement. So, don't know why all of a sudden that is negated, but that's important info that's being left out!

Anyway, who cares about all of that... we know from experience that people don't come to hair loss forums when things are going swimmingly! Look at the positive testimonials list, and you will see that most of those people are LONG GONE! lol...

Oh, and the real news is this: as Immortal Hair, Nidhogge, and myself will soon announce, the three of us have a fantastic new site that is launching very soon. There will be NO STONE LEFT UNTURNED at this new hair loss site, and if I have done it right... you guys are going to love being a part of it. It should be really fun!


-John (O.M.G.)

By the way, when I Google Image Searched "Dr. Maricle, Sunetics" to get that picture of Dr. Maricle under the Sunetics G, on the top of page three, I saw this picture on the top of page three!




That's ME! HA HA HA!!! The thumbnail of me eating a big ass steak came up for lord knows what reason! That was funny as hell seeing that when I'm searching for "Dr. Maricle, Sunetics"!

Here is that picture a little bigger:




36 ounce laser steak indeed!!! Man, I can't wait to get back to actually POSTING instead of working on the new site. I miss it! Yeah, I've actually been DOING THINGS this past few months that have made me unable to post, which explains my absence. Can't wait to get back to it!

O.M.G. -- How much do your helmets cost, and is there a long wait for one?

I used the laser helmet for 13 months and still do, it did not stop my hair loss, but without doubt slowed it down.

chipdouglas, HairSeeker -

Both of you said you were thinking of selling your laser helmets. I'm thinking of giving it a go. PM me and let me know the specs (#of diodes, power supply, etc.), pics if available, and how much you're looking for. Thanks.

I'm wearing my newly built Laser Messiah helmet as I type this. Thanks to OMG for making the foam helmet and for answering all of my wiring questions. And thanks nidhogge for getting me the lasers and power supply.

I tend to be pretty sensitive to stimulants of any kind, so I'm starting with 100 lasers spread out evenly over the top portion of my head (I'm a diffuse thinner). I'm also very fair and though I do much better in the sun than most would think, I do burn if I'm not careful. I'm thinking of starting with 20 min. 2x per week and move up to 3x per week in a month or so. Thoughts?

I'll be sure to do a four month before and after photo comparison. I'm feeling pretty good after actually piecing this thing together (I was skeptical about my ability to do so), and am excited to see what kind of results I get.

I hear people saying : What is a sunburn or burn sensation.
No, nid, a burn/sunburn of the scalp after a too long session ( or repeated sessions during months) is exactly like a sunburn on the skin. it BURNS, painfull, especially when you touch it, and you relly fell it without touching it.
We've discuss this, many times, here and on other forums.
The consensus is 20 min 3 times a week. but on this thread, i noticed that the sunetics brush, the sunetics Model "G" LASER (CLASS 1M DEVICE), a nid helmet or a OMG 300 messiah 2, states the same thing : 20 minutes 3 times a week. But, one is 5 diodes 4second on a spot, another one ot 104 lasers, more spaced and at a higher height from the scalp, and lasts are omg's ones, lots of diodes (best covergae) at 0,75 inch of the scalp.

But still, we hear the same 20 min 3 a week.

We, people, have tried the messiah 2. and many of us have experienced bad shedding, with scalp issues like sunburns, dry scalp, bad hair texture, after 3-4 months of use.

But that do not ring a bell to others. Good for you.

For others, most of us who believe in lllt ( isn't that a proof that this wthing work ? great for 3-5 months and bam )
So, yeah : damp hair, mag oil, clay, emu oil, coconut oil.
The next thing is : Time exposure, and frequency.

http://beta.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=10&t=25053

http://beta.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=10&t=24861

from my part, i has reduced to 5-8 min 3 times a week. no sunburn.
up to 12-13 . Good.
but that seems that more than 2 sessions of 15-20 minutes make me sunburns.

So approx 12 min 3 times a week, or 15 minutes 2 times a week seems good.
And why not a week off after a month of using.

Europe,

I had that sunburned problem last winter when I was lasering as well. I think I did too much. I am down to 12-15 minutes 3x/week and am fine. I should add though that I think there are other factors at play in addition to the lasering time/frequency. I think last year I was overwashing my hair (i.e too frequently) so my scalp was kind of raw before I even started lasering. I also think I had a magnesium deficiency and for some reason that caused me to be more sensitive to treatments.

All I know that is about 7 months after starting the IH top 6 and a few other supplements as well as things like bromelain, msm, iodine topicals and clay I seem to much more easily handle the lasers and feel like it is helping much more.

I think all that OMG has ever said is 3x20 minutes is a starting point. Beyond that it is up to each of us to adjust for our own response to it.

btw...even though i got that sunburned sensation I can't say that I ever had a big shed due to lasers. I just don't think my results were as good as they might have been without that "sunburn".

you're right huli, and thanks again for your input.

I mean, let's face it, OMG, nid, hapyman and jdp and many others are the ones we must celebrate. Thanks to that guys, we can have a real laser device at home.
They tested lasers devices, made a consensus, spoke to experts etc...
They created what you have on our heads, so do not misunderstanding me, i totally respect the thought process of those people.

I've just read again OMG's reaction on this thread. And i'd like to point one thing, exactly the point we are talking about.
You say it john, you've created your laser messiah because you wanted a beter coverage, custumerized ones that means less coverage to have better coverage and efficacity.
The consequence : Perhaps TOO powerfull. You said it, lasermax for 4 sec, or lunetic model G at 1,5 inch ( 0,75 for messiah 2) with more spaced diodes. VERSUS messiah 2 with very closed diodes ( less coverage, perhaps none) because at 0,75 inch.

So, we're talking about the the calcul of power in J/Cm2. that depends of overlapping and/or height, and direction of the diodes. considering we use the same diodes for each models.
good range : 3-6 J/cm2 . Overstimulation : 9 J/Cm2
and let's say 6 J/cm2 is better than 3 J/Cm2 in terms of efficacity ( few studies thanks to jdp)

Listen, ohn, i'm AGREE with all you said , ecept perhaps with this point :

1) are you sure that your device ( 300 messiah diodes at 0,75 inchs) delivers 5 J/Cm2 in 20 minutes ?
2) Because that 3-6 J/cm2 Charles maricle knows it too. So why on earth do they use that 20 min on sunetics with a device that delivers FAR LESS ENEGY then yours :
* 1,5 inch VERSUS 0,75 inch. Sunetics delivers far less energy than messiah.
* sunetics diodes are not perpendicular to each spot of scalp, which reduce a bit the power.
* Even if messiah borders the scalp with hi best, Diodes on messiah 2 are not perfectly perpendicular too though, and because they are placed at a very low height of the scalp, local overstilmulations can occur with a better probability than with a sunetics or whatever devices that put diodes at 1,5 inch. (By the way, CHECK OUT regulary your messiah to see if diodes are not a bit "deviated".

And still, sunetics advices 20 mins 3 a week, even if we know by evidence that MESSIAH IS MORE PWERFULL THAN SUNETICS.
Well you get the point. the question is HOW MUCH MORE POWERFULL...

I mean, yeah, i prefer lessiah 2 for the coverage, power, but i think we have a ferrari on our heads, and perhaps that shit delivers more than 8 J/cm2 on each spot. And therfore, days after days, accumulation is doing his job.

And that could explain our sunburns etc..., knowing that other conditions of the scalp can be a culprit to ( deficiency, mag oil, washed too often, etc...)

Excuse my english, and the lenght, but i'n not here to find answers about time and frequencies PRECISELY. Everybody must feel it. I'm just a bit surprised that the ones who thought about this 2 years ago are still SO SURE that a 20 min messiah 2 delivers no more than 5 J/Cm2.
As i can't prove that it delivers more.

I saw THE formulation concerning the Power in J/cm2 in a regrowth thread a long time ago. A member was an expert on that question, i remember. That formula which says : at 0,75 inch, with a 650 nm at 5 mw ( 3,5 in reality no ?) , perpendicular to the scalp, the J/cm2 will be 5 for 20 minutes. Ok guys let's do it !

But, isn't that the same formula for other expert in the laser business ?
And don't tell me that other things do not work. It works, perhaps not as fast or as effective as messiah 2 . It's just i would have thought that a less time exposure is necessary with a messiah 2 versus a sunetic model G or whatever model . So OMG says that is preciselt why our messiah works and not others. But John, that shits work perhaps too much for people, i don't know why exactly, but this is the case.

Europe, your English is ok. Where exactly in Europe are you from?

Remember that there is some thought that exposure time is dependent on hair color and skin pigmentation. I am dirty blonde hair with pretty fair skin. That may mean I am more sensitive to laser energy and therefore have to limit my exposure a little more than others.

One thing I will say that I have learned about everything to do with hair loss in my year and a half of dealing with it is that slower is better. Every time I get impatient and try to push results I have some type of set back which usually manifests itself in an irritated and inflamed scalp and accelerated hair loss. Since I have adopted a more patient approach I seem to be having more success, although bear in mind I am not regrowing heaps of hair yet. I am just happy that my scalp feels great, my hair looks better and my hair loss has appeared (for the time being at least) to have slowed down.

Thanks for asking these questions about the laser helmets though. I think they are very important.

Hey guys,

I honestly have been recommending 15 to 20 minutes to folks for some time now. It's not a bad thing to trend on a lower end for a half a year or even longer. Hair takes an incredibly long time to cycle!

I understand what you're saying about the burn now. I've had soreness of sorts so that when I shampoo it hurts a bit, but I don't feel that soreness if I'm not directly pressing down upon it.

The reality is though, some folks get great results in a short period of time, others take far longer. Take for example OMG and I...OMG seems to have responded far better than I did in a smaller timeframe. So, I stick with doing 15 to 20 minute sessions (I vary it), except I do them every other day.

NewReg--

Instead of two 20-minute sessions a week, I personally feel that three sessions at 15 or maybe every other day at 12-15 would yield some better results. I'd trend towards 3 days for now, do that for the bulk of 2010, and adjust accordingly.

Lasers do work for folks, but due to years of inflammation, fibrosis, calcium/phosphorous buildup and all sorts of other abuse that our follicles have taken, it's going to take some serious time to reverse the damage!

Hope that helps a bit.

nid -

That makes sense. Will start out with 12 min. 3x per week. Thanks.

No problemo buddy!

nidhogge - I asked you pretty recently but really can't find the thread. Roughly estimating, how much would it cost someone to build their own laser helmet?

Hey tooyoung--

Not sure what thread that was, but the best value that you can get as an individual is $3 a laser, then I'd assume that you'd want an OMG laser messiah so that'd be $125 to OMG, then a 15 amp power supply which is $35, your power cord which is about $8, red and black wiring which is gonna run upwards of maybe $30 or so. I get a bulk discount rate on lasers, so generally charge $2.50 per laser for orders that I make for folks. Think that's the majority of the expenses--also gonna need Elmer all-purpose glue, wire strippers, and wire nuts.

So 300 diodes alone would be $900? I've seen a couple of people on WLH rave about the lasers with 300 diode helmets, what would you say is the lowest amount of lasers you could use befpre seeing no results? With the option to add more later on.

Tooyoung--

I'd say 200 is a good start. I may have some extra lasers that I could sell you for my rate--$2.50. Gotta finish up the few orders that I have first and see what's left over in inventory.

Thanks nid, I appreciate the offer. If I get this job I am applying for I'll let you know, otherwise I don't really have enough to afford it and get everything else I need. I should know in the next few weeks, I'll let you know though. Thanks again.

Good luck tooyoung! Ya, just drop me a private message, no problemo.