Laser helmet

I have a 300 messiah 2 helmet from OMG.

I know guys like jdp, happyman and others are contributors of that kind of helmet with same specifications, that said : 650 nm, 5mw, Diffused, average of 2cm of the scalp.
With that king of specs, you were able to calcultate the 3-5 J/cm2 windows that can bio stimulatred the follicule.
the theory is that under that window it doesn't do anything ( so what about the FDA, experience of lasercomb ?) , and over8-9 J/Cm2 is overstimulated. n that case, some say it does nothing , but other say it can kill the follicule.

My questions are :
Am i dreaming, or is this the only thing in the worls , after 40 years of usinf LLLt that such a device exist ?
I mean in the clinics, those are undiffused, and the diodes are moving....So go figure and calculate anything.
I heard about undiffused clinics i an experience's user, but what was the time/frequency ? and i really don't think they were too much diods.

My real concern is about the numer of diodes, and the joule that we are getting through a 20 min or even a 10 minu session.

I mean, is there clinicals that use exactly that king of helmet specification,s with the same frequency/dosage ( let's say 10 to 20 min 2 to 3 times a week) ?

Thanks

and basically, clinics have less energy per session ( focused, time etc..) , and few sessions a month....
Hairmax had FDA approv with only a 9 diodes 4 sec every 0,5 inch.
We can discuss about FDA, but ...

Is there something wrong with a 300 diodes 20 min 3 times a week ? Something TOO POWERFULL...

If I understand your questions correctly laser clinics typically have their customers use the devices for 2 - 3 days per week x 6 months or 12 months depending on how long the contract is for. After 6 or 12 months that's when they say LLLT can be used less to maintain results.

Time is usually around 20 minutes but can be varied. For example, if the patient isn't seeing results they sometimes bump up treatment time.

IME, the beam area of the laser light is what gives the results and not the surrounding areas. So I agree with OMG's analysis about wanting as close to 100% coverage as possible.

If you're concerned, I'd highly recommend laser blood irradiation.

I'd highly recommend magnesium chloride as well as the occasional clay to exfolliate and remove sebum. Also, I'd highly recommend to avoid overdrying your hair. If your scalp is too dry, then I believe less results will be had. Also, increased frequency beyond 3 days a week gives better results, IME. B12 might help for laser blood irradiation ... I dunno.

If I had to to it over again, I'd personally buy 650 nm 5 mW minis for an extra dollar each and I'd use about 500 or 600 of them depending on money.

Also, you can build you're own laser brush and then start building hoods and helmets and keep adding more and more lasers. I personally ended up with a 6 diode brush 2 years ago and then I ended up using it for hours at a time 2 or 3 times per week ... gave better results. Then I started with 33 diodes. Then 67 diodes. Then rotated which gave 134 diodes then 201 all the while with experimenting with how close the diodes were spaced together as well as using the focusing lens, not using the focusing lens and also removing lens cap/focusing lens the spot size would spread even more. Then I went about 480 or 440 diodes, I forget which then ended up with almost 600 in a rotating hood but never completed as I didn't get the same stimulation Then went for around 475 diodes in an OMG laser messiah and then reduced to 400 to reduce weight.

Well, I hope you get my point but try out different designs and see which you're happy with. If you're concered I'd highly recommend laser blood irradiation as well. Cost is about $10 - 30 plus spare lasers.


Results? What you're searching for is a stop to further loss and better/thicker hair and no longer any stragley hairs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reiG4X2-ZZU http://www.angryhairguy.com/ Notice the stragley hairs in the links. My before and after was similar to the last link but with more regrowth.

And what I've mentioned for the past 18 months is don't expect regrowth although some do get it.

For more info see "Why laser therapy fails - and succeeds" at this link

http://www.laser.nu/lllt/lllt_editorial.htm#Super

hope this helps

Jdp,

"Also, I'd highly recommend to avoid overdrying your hair. If your scalp is too dry, then I believe less results will be had."

By this do you mean too simply keep your hair and scalp wet for treatment or are you talking about the clay taking too much moisture from your hair?

europe,

Forgot to mention the devices that have more mW or more diodes = Ultimate 162. See this link. http://www.hlcconline.com/clinic-hair-loss-laser.html#Hair-Loss-Clinic-Laser-4

Also, konftec which uses 2400 mW http://www.konftec.com/html/ko_product_hair_loss.htm

An OMG 300 helmet = 1200 mW as each diode really averages 3.5 - 4.5 mW

halfempty,

I'm referring to clay taking to much moisture out of your scalp or in general having dry hair/scalp ... dry winter air, heat from diodes, hot showers, etc.. IME, dry scalp is not good for hair loss ... I slacked on my coconut oil, lol.

hope this helps

Im curious, what kind of clay do you use to remove excess sebum and exfoliate your scalp with? My pores on my scalp get clogged, then harden.

angstman--

I use Scalpure (http://www.Scalpure.com). Personally, I really dig the stuff.

angstman,

I use french green clay or Pascalite clay.

I bought my Pascalite clay from here http://www.specialclay.com/servlet/the-Healing-Clays/Categories as did hapyman. Not sure if he still uses it.

Other people also use bentonite clay.

Thanks guys.

Sorry to drag you into this CS and I guess you've answered this question like a million times.....but why don't you use laser for your hair loss? I guess you're "happy with the current routine", but hey, if laser is as good and safe as everyone claims, why not use it too? Could perhaps lead to synergy benefits as well.

Im curious who all here uses LLLT and who has seen positive results.

Well, this thread is timely to say the least.

I bought a laser messiah helmet from OMG last year. It's set up with 230 laser diodes--same type everyone uses. I've used it for 20 minutes X 3 times/week. A reasonable amount of velous hair pierced through the skin, but most never became pigmented mature hair. Initially, when I was in the decision process as to whether or not I was going to get such a helmet, some had posted that standalone, LLLT would be disappointing, and so far, it is.

So, I've recently started on Dr. Proctor's PROX-N. I'm even thinking of getting rid of my last helmet.

chipdog, isn't lasers supposed to slow down the process rather then regrow new hairs?

I also used a laser helmet with 201 diodes for four months and actually lost hair. The entire area treated with LLLT thinned. I lost thick terminal hair, which was eventually replaced with thinner, weaker strands. So, for me, it appears that it may have increased my loss. I am not sure, it may have been lost anyway, but that’s my experience.

hairseeker - The idea in my post was to perhaps, like you, really SLOW DOWN the dosage.
3x20 min is perhaps a lot, depsite all the theory of 3-6 J/cm2 , 2cm to the scalp, etc...

You can talk about FDA, but that bitch and other FDA's countries gave their ckearance for the Hairmax.... One laser, splitted in 9 beams (OR let's say 9 diodes like us for the new models) . 4 seconds on the same spot, then move 1/2 inch, for 15 min MAX 3 times a week.

That shit i'm talking about has been discussed many time on other special laser forums like regrowth etc...when OMG, hapyman,jdp and others were there...

BUT, Even at that hairmax protocol, it's reported redness, or burn sensations.

Anyway, i heard everyone, i own a lasermax since 03, i use a laser messiah 2 with 300 diodes. And my feeling is that shit Is POwerfull.
Too many studies that say that shit works, without any doubts. But i really thhink we can easily do more harm thatn good.

and 3x20 for me, was too high. no consensus here.
never will.

europe - I had a lot of hope that LLLT will stop my loss and thicken up my hair, but unfortunately this did not happen. As I said before, my results were the exact opposite of what some report with this type of treatment. I have discontinued use and do not plan to start again. As a matter of fact, I plan to sell my laser helmet. Hair loss is complicated and IMO greatly influenced by ones health. My thyroid, adrenals and glucose levels are never optimal. I am always battling with there areas, so perhaps LLLT works for people that don't have any health issues? I don't know the answer. All I know is that it did not work for me. I can't say that it increased my loss, because there is no way to go back in time to see what would have happened had I never tired it. For all I know, I would have lost more hair. OMG and others have had great results, so it does work for some.

I have not tried a lower dosage. Actually I was advised to up the dosage to 5x20 to see if I would get better results, but it was afraid to try it.

What are your results so far with your laser messiah? How long have you been using it?

europe wrote:
and 3x20 for me, was too high. no consensus here.

3X20 minutes was too high for me too. I get that burning sensation in under 9 minutes. No soreness for me, just burning. Back when i was using the helmet for 3X20min, the first weeks i thickened up. Then, i was shedding over a hundred hairs in the shower drain alone. Like some have mentioned, hairs were coming back thinner. So, I lowered the treatment times drastically and the shedding stopped. However, around the same time, i started to take high dose biotin and also take zinc supplements, so that may have helped with the shedding situation. My guess is that the lasers metabolize and use up all the nutrients in the areas that the laser is hitting and causes some deficiency - if one were to overstimulate. Again, it's just a guess. IME and IMO, 3 treatments at 20 minutes each is going overboard. These days, i only do treatments 2 or 3 times a week at 4 or 5 minutes each.

started in may 09. 20 minX3 .
as jksl it worled for let's say 3 months. shed stoped, better hair shaft, better health overall. That hair on top were more prone to be like those on sides etc...
Well at 3 months, that was very promising for the 6, 9 and 12 month mark !
But on the 5-6 months things got wrong. Scalp burn sensation every time, more and more present. hair became very very dry, and shedding occured and never let me go...i continued for One month, and stopped lasedring for 1-2 week. Then i start to lasering again at a 10-15 min one to 2 or 3 a week. As soon as i feel the burn sensation i stop.

I think that when the scalp is already dry before lasering, that burn sensation comes very fast. as a sunburn on the skin.
VEry frustrating as LLLT is not suposed to heart skin., despite all the studies, experiences made over years...
I used everything that were mentioned, mag oil, emu oil, etc....

I really feel that this sensation is due to a dry scalp. prior lasering.
So as you said, did this scalp condition come due to 3 months of lasering ?
the solution could be to moisture the scalp, pre or post, with emu for ex. I always did this, but things got worse as i stated.

For now, shedding is still there. When i stop lasering for several days, my scalp felle normal considering the burn sensations...grrrr....and overall, i lost LOTS of hair.

But i believe in LLLT, and my guess is to really down the dosage.
I mean, if a 4 sec each 0,5 inch of the lasercomb seems to work depite all the J/cm2 calculations and OMG's attacks, why wouldn't a 8 min 2-3 times a week work with a CONTINOUS 300 diodes lasers ?

Hello,

I´m trying to imitate the sunetics protocol with an homemade open hood with 94 diodes.The reason why I have choosed this number of diodes cames from sunetics model that has 107 .Before this,i started lasering with a 200 diodes helmet.After the first month (3-20 min protocol) my hair condition improved a lot (thickening,far less sheddind).Things were promising and it seemed it could better the next months.But this situation lasted 2-3 weeks and after that ,mu hair started to thin and seemed less healthy.Why if lasering (if you are a good responder,and the effects noted were real because lasering was my only treatment that time) goes better every month,I started to feel the offset effect?it was all very strange and I supposed it could only be a overstimulation issue.After the second month I lowered my weekle treatments (2/week),my sheddind decreased but my hair condition never was as it was after the first month.

After seeing that most of the hair clinics are using devices with fewer beams (80-115) and 2 treatments per week it could be a good indicator to follow,who knows.......I´ll report my results.

I bought a 300 diode laser helmet........hair seemed stronger in a few weeks, then around the two month mark the shedding started. This continued for a month before i stopped....(i was doing the 3x 20 mins protocol). I did some research into positive results and found that the majority were using helmets/devices with between 50 and 200 diodes. So nowadays i use a 200 diode helmet twice a week for about 12 -13 mins a time - no more shedding.
IMO, a 300 diode helmet is major overstimulation. I plan to reduce the diodes further........ i think 120 - 130 would be an ideal number.

jdp - i know. 9 beams of 5 mw or one of 45 mw splitted in 9 beams. the result is a comb that stays for only 4 seconds every 1/2 inch. period. for 15 min max.
and that does not change anything of what we are saying, and questions about that 300 helmet overstimulation,

It's very strange that most of us has experienced the same thing...that first amelioration, then shedding and crappy hairs....

i don't know if that is something to do with the number of diodes, but preferably the time exposure. I mean, the ideal thing would be somehiing that MOVES to reach all scalp areas, and that was the goal to make a 500 diodes or whatever. to cover all the scalp even where it's not thinning. presuming that there isn't over exposure from diodes to diodes, and with the fact that the LLLT effect goes further than the spot size. that is the tricky part.
perhaps that gutter used to make the messiah is not a good idea for 20 min.

one o a question would be : is 10 min of a 300 helmet messiah equals a 20 min of a 150 helmet messiah( that means one diode then nothing then one diodes etc..). the two helmet would delimitate the same global area.
If that theory is true, that would tend to explain why a simple lasercomb works, and that a laser helmet would work better but WITH LESSER TIME EXPOSURE....

Hi europe,

I posted a response before but I deleted within a minute of posting as I misunderstood what you said before. It looks like you saw it before I deleted it. But yeah, I understand what you were saying about Hairmax before.

As for people mentioning a shed, I've posted many times before that I figure that people were tired of it but it's just another reason why I've recommend magnesium chloride for 14 months now. If you are not crazy about magnesium chloride, then make sure your scalp doesn't dry out ... seems to be a common theme. Magnesium chloride increases hyaluronic acid. Hyaluronic acid is basicially what makes your skin smooth.

Also, keep in mind LLLT only affects unhealthy cells. There is absolutely zero affect on healthy cells.

Also, if you get into the bioinhibition range with LLLT is doesn't harm the unhealthy cells but it prolongs how long it takes to heal tissue.

Regarding Hairmax, as little as .5 joules will give biostimulation. Of course, you won't get much in results. There is a bell curve with the best results being shown from 3 - 7 joules depending on the study. An OMG helmet gives 4 joules in 20 minutes on a clean scalp.

Here's a thread you might be interested in regarding Hairmax.

https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/natural-hair-regrowth-forum-f1/hairmax-lasercombr-laser-phototherapy-device-in-the-treatment-of-male-androgenetic-alopecia-t896.htm?highlight=hairmax

If I understand your other question correctly, if you have 1 laser shinning down on an area and you have 500 lasers shinning down on another area, you'll get the same joules so long as all the other variables are the same. The only difference is that you are treating an extremely small area with that 1 laser vs the 500 other lasers as it's the spot size/beam area that accounts for the joules. I hope that makes sense.

laser.nu has over 1500 abstracts that is a good read and is the place to go for information regarding biostimulation/amount of joules. I'd highly recommend anyone to visit the site for information on why X variable works or why Y variable does not.

hope that helps

one more thing : thanks guy for your experience, because we are not alone !!! ;-)
and i'd like to say to jdp that nothing here is against him, because that man was there before us and worked hand in hand with omg, happyman etc...to determine the ideal treatment time, the good distance between scalp-diode, protocol etc....
So, The only thing we are talking here is that 20x3 min is way too much, and what isodd is that we all experienced GOOD RESULTS for the first 2-3 months approx.
So good news : lasers work.
bad news : it seems that for certain people, protocol is doing more harm than good.

I read, spoke, loved OMG, and still do. That man is awesome, i like his houmor, and have a profond respect for his work, so do i with all who are contributing here and one other lasers forum.
That treatment time has been many time asked when he was on board ( is he still on board ?) but his answers were to stick to the protocol. admetting that even if one would use it at 10 min instead of 20, his calculations tend to prove that it still would be in the BIO Stimulation 3-6 J/cm2 area...
That is typically that part that i wanna discuss here with you, jdp , hapyman, and others.
Sorry if you already did, but hey, certain people need to understand more about that calculation.

thanks to meoki, i've been to the sunetics site.
two miracles :
1) Dr maricle ( i like jokes) work for them. Our diodes are furnished by that man, and that man is answering questions to another forum, on regrowth.
2) http://www.sunetics.com/comparelasers_safety.aspx


Sunetics has taken a very different approach. Through our laser research and design, we have found that by using the natural beam divergence (the natural spreading of the laser from its emission from the laser diode), which is generally about 10 degrees, we could create a natural field of coherent laser energy equivalent to the state of the art for laser hair therapy products and include a built in product safety factor.

What does this mean in the real world? First, at the distance normally used in the Sunetics product (1 1/2" from the laser emissions in the Model G clinical laser units and at the 1" distance for the length of the bristles of the Sunetics Laser Hair Brush) the natural spread of the coherent laser energy creates the equivalent output of the focused, or collimated devices. Part of this is due to the short distance from the laser to the treatment area and part of this due to the inherent overlapping of the laser energy in the treatment field. Another by-product of this design is the ability to provide a full field of coherent laser energy coverage over the treated area as opposed to the traditional, or laser spot, products.

From a safety perspective, the natural divergence of the laser energy spreads very quickly once past the treatment area. Since the lasers are not collimated there is no risk of accidental exposure to the eye from a focused laser energy beam. This means that Sunetics laser products can have a laser safety rating better than even a simple laser pointer. Per the IEC, "Class 1M lasers are products which produce either a highly divergent beam or a large diameter beam. Therefore, only a small part of the whole laser beam can enter the eye. However, these laser products can be harmful to the eye if the beam is viewed using magnifying optical instruments." This effectively means that unless you are looking at the lasers through a magnifying lens, you are in no risk of eye damage.

WAOW ! nothing new for you, but for me yes.
Model G clinical laser use unfocused diodes at a 1,5 inch distance, which is higher than us. so less energy, and far less diodes but spreaded all over the scalp.
I'd like to know their protocol, but even at a 20 min x 3, that shit GIVES FAR LESS ENERGY THAN A LASER MESSIAH.
messiah : 300, with a gutter gard very closed, so a great overlapping despite what omg said. 2 cm ( 0,79 inch) from the scalp.
sunetics model G : 107, all over the scalp, a lessen overlapping, 3,8 cm ( 1,5 inch) from the scalp

You bet that we get scalp burning....the good news is DON'T PANIC i presume. The idea is to get the good dosage, and to know if just lessen the time with the same treated area ( let's say 300 diodes) equals a larger treated area with a few more miuntes on...
Over lapping here i suppose.

but when we compare the sunetic brush, 4 diodes, few seconds i presume on the same spot then move on, 2,54 cm ( 1 inch) from the scalp. We are near the specification of the lasermax,
and that sunetics works i presume.

Well, we really need scientifics numbers between that two sunetics products, because i really want to know if the benefits are identical. in the long run i mean.

I mean, That Dr maricle know that we have the same unfocused diode.
he knows the gutter guard of the laser messiah, overlaping due to the close distance between diodes and the 0,79 inch cm that are less than their 1,5 inch.

If that guy really takes his time to look on a 300 helmet messiah 2, I would really like to know what are his thoughts.

With a real look at it, and all the messiah specifications, ( and skin, hair colors shaft are other ones too...)
But that job can also be done by us, the goal is to perhaps explain a little bit why 5 minutes 2 times a day equals a 15 min of their model G ... for example...
Because at the first sight, we could say : same protocol...

perhaps we have a porshe on the top of our head....

thanks jdp.
i respond above before reading your new answer.
So to your last post, you said :


Regarding Hairmax, as little as .5 joules will give biostimulation. Of course, you won't get much in results. There is a bell curve with the best results being shown from 3 - 7 joules depending on the study. An OMG helmet gives 4 joules in 20 minutes on a clean scalp.

and

If I understand your other question correctly, if you have 1 laser shinning down on an area and you have 500 lasers shinning down on another area, you'll get the same joules so long as all the other variables are the same. The only difference is that you are treating an extremely small area with that 1 laser vs the 500 other lasers as it's the spot size/beam area that accounts for the joules. I hope that makes sense.

Yeah. I KNOW ALL OF THIS. and that is what brought that laser messiah alive.
That is the theory, but in practice are you really sure that a 20 min 300 diodes gives a 4 J/cm2 on the treated area ?
Dr maricle of sunetic says that overlapping is there, even on a 1,5 inch. Imagine on a 0,78 inch. Plus, diods in the sumetics are not so close !!! perhaps x2 from diode to diod, which is increasing again the overlapping and finaly :
your 4 J/cm2 could be a 8 J.

Add the cumulative effetc on a 3 times a week, and you can get overstimulation.
The "hope" part is that in few months, all wil be good again.
i use mag oil, emu oil. And i can assure you that like others i shed a lot after my VERY GOOD 3 months period.

I'm really think that with a 20 min and a 300 messiah 2 (gutter gard) at 0,78 inch from scalp, we get far more than 4 J/cm2.
And i can't prove it ! scientifficaly.

perhaps because most of us have more hair, skin colors, dry scalp versus greasy etc... those that had great result with 20 min had a lessen J/cm2 ...

So, either we change the gutter gard ( more spacy) , either the distance between the scalp and diodes.
OR, and that is what people DO for tose who don't wanna quit : Lessen the time exposure.

http://www.sunetics.com/pdf/clinicalstudyMechanismlasertherapypaper.pdf

section : 6.3 Dose.