the liver connection?

magic_gro Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:27 am

http://www.nicehair.org/hair-loss-causes/what-is-the-connection-between-the-liver-and-hair-loss

AgapeBerry Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:03 am

Myself and others have found a lot of positive correlations between scalp sebum and hairloss (the article connects the liver to sebum production). Probably not the sole factor, but seems like a contributor for many.

This thread has some info - https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t11447-sebum-and-hair-loss-a-common-thread?highlight=sebum

sanderson Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:32 pm

toolsmakingtools wrote:Myself and others have found a lot of positive correlations between scalp sebum and hairloss (the article connects the liver to sebum production). Probably not the sole factor, but seems like a contributor for many.

This thread has some info - https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t11447-sebum-and-hair-loss-a-common-thread?highlight=sebum

Columbo Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:12 am

Intuitively, for me at least, I've found there's strong a link between liver health and hair loss. Not just sebum but also in hormone regulation / balance

hairmaniac Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:09 am

In Traditional Chinese Medicine, hair health is connected to kidney health. I'm a firm believer that hair health is connected to body's organ health such as liver, kidney or even brain. My hair loss started after a period where I had extreme depression and unbelievable stress, and since then there are periods where it stops and starts itself again.
I don't think that DHT is the main reason for balding (although it plays a role)

4039 Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:15 am

Not to sound like a broken record, but choline choline choline glycine glycine glycine or betaine betaine betaine or b-vitamins in general. For those talking about liver health and sebum, are you taking any of these in ample amounts, cause the average body needs it? These are the basics that shouldn't be avoided. The answer doesn't need to be complicated to be correct ffs.

Delphine Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:06 pm

4039 wrote:Not to sound like a broken record, but choline choline choline glycine glycine glycine or betaine betaine betaine or b-vitamins in general. For those talking about liver health and sebum, are you taking any of these in ample amounts, cause the average body needs it? These are the basics that shouldn't be avoided. The answer doesn't need to be complicated to be correct ffs.

Just started taking glycine, one or two teaspoons a day in divided doses. In your opinion is this enough?

Changexpert Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:18 am

I would be very cautious with B-vitamins for a long-term, especially at ridiculously high dose formula most companies come up with. I've seen/experienced myself more shedding from taking B complex. The most simplistic way to think about this is that you are giving your body a fuel to run at full speed when the body is not ready to do so, producing unwanted byproducts that may lead to oxidative damage. Would you drive a car with a flat tire at a full speed? I definitely would not take such risk. Fortunately, human bodies have capability to adjust to changes, but definitely not for a long course of time.

4039 Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:15 am

Where did anyone say to take a lot of anything other than choline and glycine or betaine for liver heath?

Sufficiency of choline relates directly to being an essential nutrient as the single most vital building block (and membrane protector) of a living cell.... of which the human body likely has 80-100 trillion. Choline has tons of important roles in methlation and nervous system activity etc.

As it relates to the liver, only lecithin has the ability to emulsify fats (and waxy deposits like sebum) below body temperature. Lecithin (and a clean and functioning liver) will increase the biovailability and synthesis of every food and supplement you ingest, but especially fat soluble vitamins like D/K/A/E. But it's tough to get enough choline in foods, unless you eat enough eggs and liver.

If you do supplement with lecithin, I recommend 1-3TB daily and get enough calcium/magnesium/potassium to balance the phosphorous content. But then you should be eating enough leafy greens every week, if you truly care about your health. Guess what I also recommend eating? organ meat including liver at least once a week. And make sure you are sufficient in the RDA of all b-vitamins for liver function.

And glycine (and taurine) are vital components and building blocks of bile, of which the body then conjugates to produce almost one gallon of bile per day. Not to mention glycine is responsible for plenty of vital actions in the body. So if your liver, gallbladder ducts are backed up with gunk, you definitely aren't getting enough of either.

Come on, do your homework before typing.

Delphine wrote:
4039 wrote:Not to sound like a broken record....

Just started taking glycine, one or two teaspoons a day in divided doses. In your opinion is this enough?

1 teaspoon of glycine powder is approximately 4 grams. I take as much as 1 tablespoon or 12 grams daily on an empty stomach upon waking. I personally wouldn't take more than 20-30grams daily. Glycine also acts to raise HGH in the absence of lipids, of which I break my fast at 5PM with my first meal and fat of the day.

Changexpert Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:36 am

So where did anyone really say take high dose of B vitamins besides giving a warning about high dose formula supplements that are on the market?

4039 Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:46 am

Changexpert wrote:So where did anyone really say take high dose of B vitamins besides giving a warning about high dose formula supplements that are on the market?

And what initiated your statement other than yours piggybacking mine? Why not instead focus on extrapolating further on the fundamentals, of which choline and glycine clearly represent, instead of digressing into something that anyone with a lick of common sense knows. No offense, but way to miss the vital point.

And yes to synopsize, if you truly care about liver health start with choline/glycine and eating enough organ meat like liver. These are the basic recommendations. Very Happy

Delphine Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:02 am

4039 wrote:Where did anyone say to take a lot of anything other than choline and glycine or betaine for liver heath?

Sufficiency of choline relates directly to being an essential nutrient as the single most vital building block (and membrane protector) of a living cell.... of which the human body likely has 80-100 trillion. Choline has tons of important roles in methlation and nervous system activity etc.

As it relates to the liver, only lecithin has the ability to emulsify fats (and waxy deposits like sebum) below body temperature. Lecithin (and a clean and functioning liver) will increase the biovailability and synthesis of every food and supplement you ingest, but especially fat soluble vitamins like D/K/A/E. But it's tough to get enough choline in foods, unless you eat enough eggs and liver.

If you do supplement with lecithin, I recommend 1-3TB daily and get enough calcium/magnesium/potassium to balance the phosphorous content. But then you should be eating enough leafy greens every week, if you truly care about your health. Guess what I also recommend eating? organ meat including liver at least once a week. And make sure you are sufficient in the RDA of all b-vitamins for liver function.

And glycine (and taurine) are vital components and building blocks of bile, of which the body then conjugates to produce almost one gallon of bile per day. Not to mention glycine is responsible for plenty of vital actions in the body. So if your liver, gallbladder ducts are backed up with gunk, you definitely aren't getting enough of either.

Come on, do your homework before typing.

Delphine wrote:
4039 wrote:Not to sound like a broken record....

Just started taking glycine, one or two teaspoons a day in divided doses. In your opinion is this enough?

1 teaspoon of glycine powder is approximately 4 grams. I take as much as 1 tablespoon or 12 grams daily on an empty stomach upon waking. I personally wouldn't take more than 20-30grams daily. Glycine also acts to raise HGH in the absence of lipids, of which I break my fast at 5PM with my first meal and fat of the day.

For raising growth hormone, wouldn't it be more efficient to take a dose of glycine before bed?
You said "in the absence of lipids" but you take it with fat, I'm a bit confoosed Question

I used to take lecithin, you've got me thinking about taking it again. Re liver, I take desiccated liver, and I like chicken or beef liver on occasion when I can find a fresh source.
Here's a good chicken liver recipe: fry chicken livers with zucchini, shredded carrot, green onion, salt, some herbs and that's it !

4039 Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:24 am

Delphine wrote:

For raising growth hormone, wouldn't it be more efficient to take a dose of glycine before bed?
You said "in the absence of lipids" but you take it with fat, I'm a bit confoosed

I used to take lecithin, you've got me thinking about taking it again. Re liver, I take desiccated liver, and I like chicken or beef liver on occasion when I can find a fresh source.
Here's a good chicken liver recipe: fry chicken livers with zucchini, shredded carrot, green onion, salt, some herbs and that's it !

I take desiccated liver and liver glandular every once in a while. But liver itself is so cheap (only 89 cents a pound) and tasty to me as well. Smile

I could write so much more, but the dearth of Internet information makes forums like these almost irrelevant. If there's something you want to know, it's way easily found. Here's an interesting article explaining why choline sufficiency is especially important for men.

ESTROGEN, METHYLATION AND CHOLINE DEFICIENCY
http://www.beyondmthfr.com/estrogen-methylation-and-choline-deficiency/

Although if you can pinch more than an inch around that abdomen, chances are you have a fatty liver, not to mention you likely have metabolic syndrome, low testosterone and are estrogen dominant. And yeah you probably also have choline deficiency.

As far as the amino glycine, I take it upon waking at 8AM, then I fast the entire day until 5-8PM upon eating my first meal. My eating window is usually till midnight. Technically you could also take glycine at bedtime, at least three hours away from food. But honestly, I think the most optimal scenario for HGH is either waking in the middle of the night and takinng glycine or upon waking with a fully empty stomach many hours after digestion. BTW, glycine is just one of many aminos as HGH secretagogues.

Delphine Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:46 am

4039 wrote:
I take desiccated liver and liver glandular every once in a while. But liver itself is so cheap (only 89 cents a pound) and tasty to me as well.

I like it too...think I shall pick up some chicken liver for dinner tonite Smile

I could write so much more, but the dearth of Internet information makes forums like these almost irrelevant. If there's something you want to know, it's way easily found. Here's an interesting article explaining why choline sufficiency is especially important for men.

ESTROGEN, METHYLATION AND CHOLINE DEFICIENCY
http://www.beyondmthfr.com/estrogen-methylation-and-choline-deficiency/

Although if you can pinch more than an inch around that abdomen, chances are you have a fatty liver, not to mention you likely have metabolic syndrome, low testosterone and are estrogen dominant. And yeah you probably also have choline deficiency.

I'm female but I'm sure this is an issue for me. I thought my B complex supp contained it, but no. I guess I will also be picking up some lecithin today!

Still wondering about this. If you take glycine with a fat, isn't that a lipid?
"Glycine also acts to raise HGH in the absence of lipids, of which I break my fast at 5PM with my first meal and fat of the day."

As far as the amino glycine, I take it upon waking at 8AM, then I fast the entire day until 5-8PM upon eating my first meal. My eating window is usually till midnight. Technically you could also take glycine at bedtime, at least three hours away from food. But honestly, I think the most optimal scenario for HGH is either waking in the middle of the night and takinng glycine or upon waking with a fully empty stomach many hours after digestion. BTW, glycine is just one of many aminos as HGH secretagogues.

Nacin does that too. I generally take 1500 mg. niacin before bed along with magnesium, and glycine in tea or kefir. I take magnesium glycinate btw.

4039 Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:20 am

Yeah a lipid is any fat. I save my fats for at night, mostly coconut, mct, olive, palm, grapeseed, animal fats. I also take 1.5g of niacin on an empty stomach daily for HGH and then hop on my wbv machine for 10 minutes.

Pretty sure I've posted this graph on the forum previously....

the liver connection? NiacinCholesterolWarsFig3

the liver connection? NiacinCholesterolWarsFig3

To be honest, the whole article is worth reading

http://nutritionreview.org/2013/08/niacin-cholesterol-wars-champion-raise-growth-hormone/

And being as niacin is a major antagonist to choline it makes even more sense to supplement with it.

Delphine Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:34 am

Thanks. So when I take glycine, it seems better to put it in juice, water or tea than kefir made with whole milk.

"And being as niacin is a major antagonist to choline it makes even more sense to supplement with it."

Why is the antagonist factor a good thing?

4039 Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:42 am

Delphine wrote:Thanks. So when I take glycine, it seems better to put it in juice, water or tea than kefir made with whole milk.

"And being as niacin is a major antagonist to choline it makes even more sense to supplement with it."

Why is the antagonist factor a good thing?

For the HGH effect, I wouldn't take it with anything containing fat.

And as an antagonist, higher-dose niacin can deplete choline stores; a deficiency is one of the reasons why some develop liver dysfunction and damage. Adequate choline goes deep into cell membranes and also acts as a protectant.... similar to how it coats your hands and skin and is difficult to remove. Very Happy

Delphine Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:57 am

4039 wrote:
Delphine wrote:Thanks. So when I take glycine, it seems better to put it in juice, water or tea than kefir made with whole milk.

"And being as niacin is a major antagonist to choline it makes even more sense to supplement with it."

Why is the antagonist factor a good thing?

For the HGH effect, I wouldn't take it with anything containing fat.

And as an antagonist, higher-dose niacin can deplete choline stores; a deficiency is one of the reasons why some develop liver dysfunction and damage. Adequate choline goes deep into cell membranes and also acts as a protectant.... similar to how it coats your hands and skin and is difficult to remove.

OK...this is where a slight adjustment in phrasing is helpful in understanding. As an editor, I would edit thus:
"And as niacin is a major choline antagonist it makes even more sense to supplement choline."

So do you think just taking lecithin and eating foods like eggs and liver would give us enough choline?

4039 Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:10 am

Delphine wrote:

OK...this is where a slight adjustment in phrasing is helpful in understanding. As an editor, I would edit thus:
"And as niacin is a major choline antagonist it makes even more sense to supplement choline."

So do you think just taking lecithin and eating foods like eggs and liver would give us enough choline?

Do the math on liver and eggs, you would need an extremely large amount daily to get the equivalent 5G of phosphatidyl choline - and 3 grams of inositol - from a mere 3tbl of soy lecithin.

As an editor, you should also know that lipids are fats, as well: fat-soluble vitamins, mono/di/tri-glycerides, waxes etc. Very Happy

I'm actually a very capable writer, but have gotten lazy around here. I write it once and never even bother reread. wysiwyg To me this is just very conversational, since you seem receptive. Although I did take time to trim the quotes.

I guess I could sit here like my past self, digesting tons of science and making it completely coherent to *every* potential reader. To be honest, I'm starting to think many people aren't worth saving, especially those negative, lazy entitled mindsets that seem so prevalent the last two decades. Or perhaps I have just become jaded by uncovering this information age's truth.

I believe the old ancient Greek proverb was "God helps those who help themselves." Some people are simply their own worst enemies.

Delphine Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:14 am

So you supplement choline as well as taking lecithin and eating high choline foods. How much? Can you recommend a product?

4039 Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:31 am

I currently moderate between soy lecithin and all the other sources mentioned. Plus I take liposomes made from soy lecithin. I'll just tell you one thing, it took a substantial amount of time for me to become truly sufficient on 3tbl daily. Now I'm mostly under maintenance depending on my intuition and mood.

My only recommendation is to buy a non-GMO brand of soy lecithin. You could also use sunflower lecithin, but I have my doubts about sunflower being much healthier.... while being very cost-prohibitive. As you can see, I'm being lazy again. There's a lot of bad science about soy lecthin out there, but much of it's easily countered after some thoughtful reading. Any risks are marginal and overwhelmed by innumerable benefits. If I remember correctly Chris Kresser did a good job of debunking a lot of it.

I use this one.... less than $10 a pound from a fairly trusted source.

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-premium-lecithin-granules-non-gmo-3-lb-1362-grams-granules

I have also used PhosChol in the past, which is pharmaceutical grade and prescribed by many doctors, but really expensive.

Delphine Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:24 am

OK, thanks. Yeah, lecithin has many benefits. It is a "superfood." And, relevant to this forum, it is supposed to increase hair growth.

4039 Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:42 pm

Delphine wrote:OK, thanks. Yeah, lecithin has many benefits. It is a "superfood." And, relevant to this forum, it is supposed to increase hair growth.

If you just focus on hair, instead of health, you could likely lose both. But when I started focusing on long-term health and longevity, my hair experienced a huge rethickening, that was over six years ago. So indirectly choline sufficiency is great for hair, but the top 5 thing you can do for health.

Why? Think about it for a second. Do you forget ever to wash your hands? Well if we think about choline as soap for the liver and arteries alone, then why don't we wash our internals every day too. Your internals get just as putrid and clogged without a good daily washing.

And in twenty years from now, if someone had read my messages and still has full circulation to their arteries and no amaloid plaques in the brain or stones in liver/gallbladder ducts, then my participation here will have been worth it.

Again, choline is inside the membrane of every single cell, so the sheer amount of health maladies it prevents or even reverses (besides just poor circulation, myelination, methylation, lipid emusification) is incalculable. Truly.

Delphine Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

No, of course I am not just focusing on hair, just thought that was a relevant point. My hair is actually doing great.

I went out and bought Solgar lecithin and already took several tablespoons.

This page says you can get too much choline.
http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/nutrition/a/choline.htm

Is it Possible to Get Too Much Choline?
Actually, yes. The Tolerable Upper Intake level for adults has been set at 3.5 grams (3500 mg) per day. Above this, adverse effects can include low blood pressure, diarrhea, and fishy body odor.

4039 Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:06 pm

I'd keep researching and reading. Fishy body odor? lol Personally I would say half of the arguments against lecithin supplementation is political. The soybean especially being a controversial subject based on the sheer amount of subsidies it receives for production.

Although I will say that 3TBL daily of lecithin will make your skin all sticky. Just as 3TBL daily of hydrolyzed collagen makes your skin all slick and powdery soft.

At first I though the tackiness was due to the lecithin itself, but after around 6-8 month mark it ceased. My realization then became this byproduct was merely all the solidified lipid residue and gunk exiting through my pores. Another thing to note is that choline restores the electrical potential of cells and allows beneficial substances entrance and wastes to better exit.

Like I said, the most important thing to note (as for any potential sides, which are few) is offseting that 30% by volume phosphorous content with alkaline minerals.

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