Probiotics / Metabolism / Gut & Hairloss (advice needed).

Hi guys

First time poster, but ive been reading for quite some time now. I think Action said the best way of beating hairloss is to continually get closer to the source through trial and error and experimentation. My regime changes and I continually implement new things, the truth is I think its a combination of so many factors. Im struggling with a couple of things so I was hoping to get some advice and not necessarily take a blanket approach (which doesnt seem to be working for me).

Ive been on the Top 6 for a couple of months now (plus a few other things), diet changes, stress reduction, topical experimentation. Im convinced that (like littlefighter) that gut health is paramount. I was on finesteride about a year ago and I think the drug really altered my microflora / brain. Had a huge personality change amongst many of the other symptoms which many I have beaten, some remain... and I worry that they may always be there.

Ive been on probiotics for a couple of weeks and what with that iodine, and the top 6+ my metabolism is in overdrive, and I mean overdrive, I eat and eat (15 chicken legs) didnt even make me feel full. My shedding is worse because of this (it seems).

Im on Jarrow EPS and wanted to get experienced posters views on how this all of ties in to hairloss because I think its big for me, perhaps if I can list some physiological / mood changes since I started the regime others can advise and obviously im happy to answer any questions

I have more energy, my skin has lost a lot of collagen / elastin in a short space of time and continues to degrade fast (maybe thyroid / adrenals) and I have low basal temperatures which Iodine and Sellenium dont seem to be correcting (may be too early). My mood is much better now, but very excitable with anxious thoughts, very up and down (doesnt seem like this is great for hairloss).
I think I am low on oxygen, waking up with big crease lines on my face and hands. I smoke but I always had great skin and its a concern to me how fast this is happening. Sleep is bad, I sleep most of the night but its a stressful anxious sleep where I move alot. I have even thought I may have sleep apnea and should probably check this out.

Digestion isnt great since starting probiotics but I wonder if it is again too early to judge effectiveness, stomach is rumbling all of the time and I literally (as said above) am so hungry...I stick to a paleo / diet with some caffiene and the occasional treat (massive craving for sweet foods).
Ive read littlefighters posts and they are really helpful, although I just dont have the time to devote to making yoghurt, I am really looking for a gut healing protocol as I just know that this is crucial and I have metabolic issues for sure. Ive considered fasting, all sorts but I just dont want to make things any worse, been to an endo recently to get a load of tests and will post my results shortly for interests sake.

If anyone can give any thoughts, or whether this big shed from probiotics / top 6 may actually be a good thing and whether its too early. There is a lot of reference to time, with people saying, inflammation takes time to stop, what sort of time, how do we know we are moving in the right direction? I know there are posts on this (gut) but I honestly think its massive, maybe one of the most important things, at least for me so any advice would be gladly recieved.

Ive read that probiotics can increase the metabolism but again, does this mean that I am not tolerating them?

Read all of your posts with interest and I hope we all get the breakthroughs we are looking for soon!!!

Thanks

It would be of interest to get anyones views on this?

The time required to evaluate whether a particular approach is working is on the order of months to years. Taking supplements and probiotics probably won't help much unless underlying systemic balances are addressed.

IME, repairing your gut and maintaining the overall state of your digestive system is difficult if you don't manage your stress levels. You should look into the GAPS diet. Although I never went through the recommended introductory phases, I try to follow the diet otherwise. Most importantly, you have to avoid complex carbohydrates. The main idea is that you're resetting the composition of the gut bacteria by consuming only simple sugars, which are absorbed rapidly and thus cannot serve as a food source for bacterial overgrowth. I think another useful strategy is to consume foods which are traditionally accepted as improving gut health: ginger, turmeric, carrots. Interestingly, all of these are root vegetables.

There are other subtle things about digestion which seem too simple to have any practical relevance, but they have helped me. For example, chewing thoroughly and eating patiently. On a similar note, sit still for 20-30 minutes after eating and just relax. Don't start moving around right after you eat, and avoid eating on the go.

Rather than looking at how much hair you're shedding, you should focus on improving your general sense of well-being (almost everyone feels tired these days), and scalp inflammation. I can feel scalp pain/itching when things are going down hill.

I'm no expert but have been through similar. I had a bad time when I first started doing all this stuff, and as a>r says, you gotta experiment to figure out what is your problem so you can address it.

A diet that is right for you is crucial. Doesn't sound like paleo is working for you, so move on to something with more carbs (which is apparently what your bod is trying to tell you with the cravings and ravenous hunger). Just because an eating style works for a lot of people doesn't mean it works for you, and in fact if you search paleo on this board you'll find a lot of people have had negative experience with it, including increased hair loss and loss of collagen (which happened to me when I tried it). The Zone might be a good next step for you since Paleo doesn't work, and Zone allows for good protein intake. Point being is keep trying different styles of eating and food elimination until you find what makes you feel and look healthy. It can be intimidating, but pick an eating style that appeals to you and seems doable, and if that doesn't work for you, move on to another. Put your own style together. You'll figure it out if you persevere.

Also, smoking has no place in health. Sad but true. I used to smoke, and lost my father to lung cancer and one grandmother to emphysema/COPD brought on by 40+ years of unrepentant smoking, so I speak from experience. If you're going to continue to smoke then that will likely undermine anything healthy you try to do. Detoxing from smoking uses up crucial antioxidants and vitamins your body needs to repair itself, etc.

Finally, if you rev up your thyroid/metabolism with iodine and your adrenals aren't in good enough shape to handle it, that will cause big-time difficulties. That sounds like part of what may be happening to you. I went through similar. Strongly recommend experimenting with some adrenal cortex supplements, and salt loading.

Also, if you're experiecning any kind of detox from the iodine (iodine can pull bromide and other heavy metals out of the body), salt loading can help with iodine detox symptoms as well as helping your adrenals.

But listen to your body, and if you think something is have having a negative effect, eliminate it. If you feel better after elimination, wait a while, clean yourself up, then go back. For example, I couldn't tolerate iodine until I cleaned up my diet and built up my adrenals. Took a long time. But after a couple of initial failures I am now able to tolerate iodine, which is finally helping me address the long-standing sub-clinical hypothyroid condition I have.

Can't emphasize enough, however, that it sounds like paleo is not your friend and that should be your starting point for getting better.

Hope that helps.

Great advice by both guys above. It's going to take a lot of experimentation into seeing what works for you in order to fix what ails you. There's no one single approach. I, for instance, do better restricting carbs and loading up on protein and good fats. There are people who do very well on a completely different diet from me.

It's trial and error and you have to have patience. You can't be one of the guys on this board who jump from one regimen/protocol to another each week claiming you've found the cure.

I think you're still early into Probiotics to judge. A few other things can help your gut health and help with the skin issues - are you using coconut oil? Cooking in it? Taking it by mouth? That would help heal some things in your gut and also might take the edge off your hunger. I take a tablespoon or two a day of it. Sometimes I put it in my coffee and drink it.

You say you can eat 15 chicken legs? Are you eating veggie carbs with that? If you eat a huge serving of spinach, for example, it will cut down on how much protein you can sit and eat. A lot of guys I know who do Paleo and fail just eat protein and nuts and ignore the veggies carbs you should be eating in abundance. They fill you up and cut down on between meal snacking. At least they do for me.

If you're honestly not eating veggie carbs, then I would try that first before adding back in stuff like rice, beans, quinoa, etc. If you are eating loads of veggie carbs, then see what happens by adding in some other carbs. What I wouldn't do is go nuts on potatoes, pasta and bread right out of the gate. Ease up to those.

That's how I would try to see what my body works best on.

I was doing the Perfect Health Diet that the Jaminets wrote the book about and it actually was the best diet for me energy wise. Only problem is eating white rice & potatoes stopped me from losing fat I was trying to burn off. Still, that diet I felt the best on and had ridiculous energy on.

Since then I've gone more Paleo with a cheat day each week which works for me.

Also for the sleep are you taking Ecklonia Cava extract before bedtime? It helps the sleep patterns adjust after awhile. You could also give 5mg of Melatonin a shot for a few weeks and see if that gets you on schedule. Also, make sure the room you're sleeping in is cold at night. Now that it's summer where I am I need my bedroom to be like a freezer to sleep well at night. Once the temp gets about 66 degrees in my bedroom I'm fidgety and don't sleep as well as when it's cold.

Thanks for the support and advice guys, all of your comments were very useful and have renewed my determination to make things better. I feel so much better than during and post finesteride now (it was awful) so I guess I should focus more on the positives because I do think that your frame of mind / stress level has a big impact on hairloss and obviously health in general.

I will give probiotics some more time and hope that this shed is in fact a good thing. Itching / inflammation is quite bad at the moment, and I also seem to get a big shed in the late evening (which I find very odd). I also want to look into meditation so anyone that has experience with this and advice (mastery - love your posts) will be useful.

Whoda, sorry to hear about your family members, I agree, smoking is the first thing that needs to go!
I am using coconut oil and ecklonia cava and have found both beneficial to certain degrees and will continue to look at diet as a factor and the associated metabolic issues because my gut (no pun intended) says this is something I need to focus on.

I think its funny how you dont appreciate your 'youth' when you have it, you can tolerate most foods, and do almost anything you want within reason. I guess the same approach works now, I believe in the law of attraction (where you get what you focus on) and its so hard to change your perspective when you see your hair receeding every day.

Anyway, im way off topic here. Thanks very much. I think this forum is brilliant.

Glad you posted this thread because I was going to start one on Probiotics right now. Hopefully, this will contribute to thread.

Probiotics:

I've read highly respected health advisers claim that if you are eating a few servings of probiotic foods such as fermented yogurt and veggies or sauerkraut juice a day no probiotic supps are needed? So for a guy like me who eats that amount and is trying to "heal" the gut what do you guys think? I'd rather spend that money on E. Cava if i'm getting enough good bacteria from the foods. I guess the question is how much probiotic do we need? Can we get all of them from real whole foods or must we supplement?

GAPS diet:

CS recommends this diet and really this diet is super focused on healing the gut the right way in my opinion. On top of that it is a great great way to detox!

I feel as though ray peat and these others guys have much to bring to the table and I actually felt great on Peat diet and plan to go back to it once I'm out of the intro stage on this gaps diet(with foods that crossover on the gaps list and there are a bunch btw). See, the problem with those diets is that they don't get your gut back to a baseline if you will and IMO and from my research the GAPS diet will do just that. It's designed for autistic kids. Me personally, haven't been that great to myself over the years and am not near optimal health so I opted to go with the "most hardcore" diet for now just to clean up and hopefully improve the brain/gut barrier to improve focus, mood and the like.

Paleo isn't the one man. Especially with what you are trying to do. Your on the right track.

Rekker, we have a lot of the same symptoms and let me tell you the sleep one IMO is huge and I feel it has been fucking me for the past 11 years of my life. I too have a sort of apnea but instead of not inhaling correctly I exhale over the span of about 15-20 seconds slowly and make a weird groaning nose. I also smoke. I feel as though anxiety contributes to the sleep problems and the sleep problems contribute to health problems and so on goes this vicious cycle. Sorry to read about your troubles with fin. are you sure they were caused by the drug? Did your hair improve?

Also Hadrion has great advice but I'd be careful not to get into the habit of using melatonin due to the increase in seratonin which isn't the greatest thing like most believe. Probably, not the biggest deal to someone who has great hormonal balance with no signs of mood problems but I feel as though elevated seratonin has caused me a lot of misery in my days and am still working hard at it. E cava is magic!

Thanks for the feedback on the PHD Hadrion, what carb sources (non veggie) do you find best in general?

Do you guys use top 6 + follow a super clean diet?

Hi NY, thanks for your response, it does seem like we have a lot of the same issues so it’s interesting to get your take on things.

I don’t eat any fermented foods, yoghurt would be an option for me although I’ve read so much conflicting information on diet that I don’t know what to believe (dairy yes, dairy no, sugar yes, sugar no etc blah blah blah). Its frustrating.

I will look more seriously into the GAPS diet and have heard it referenced a few times now.
I think its important to take probiotics, especially in our situation and maybe perhaps be more targeted in the strains we take (as littlefighter suggests). They do make a difference so I think its just trial and error, I have a specific strain ordered now. I’m not sure about ingesting multiple strains via Jarrow or Dr Ohira is the right way forward, especially if you have a weak gut. It sort of feels like there is a way going on between the good guys and the bad guys and the die off is causing issues.

Can you give me an idea of what you might eat in a day following the GAPS diet? My diet is much better than before, but I do cheat occasionally, choc / sweets probably being my worse vice. Maybe I need to cut these out completely to stop feeding the bad bacteria? What do you think about fasting to give the gut time to heal, you can never heal a muscle if you keep using it so…

Completely agree about sleep. I was very lucky before finesteride in that I slept like a baby all night every night, I sleep now, but its an anxious sleep, bad dreams, lots of moving, I feel myself stop breathing sometimes, I grind my teeth (think illegal drugs had something to do with this – I did take them in my younger days) – idiot.

Fin improved my hair, a lot and completely stopped the shedding, however I would not recommend it to anyone and I still don’t think we fully understand how it works. It’s the neurodegenerative affects that are the worse, libido problems, lack of orgasm intensity. Fucking horrible.

The effects were def caused by fin, had such mental problems, anxiety depression (when stoping the drug). The problem is these neural pathways re-inforce themselves and it becomes different to think differently, or even remember how you used to think…
I think meditation is important, times I remember shedding the least I was calm, not anxious, sleeping better. You are right, it’s a vicious cycle so I’m really interested in things that aid sleep, actually I think Magnesium threonate helped when I was taking that and I may need to look into it again. It calmed my mind. Im a bit nervous about melatonin too…

I use the top 6, plus iodine and a few other bits. I do think something in the top 6 is not reacting well with me and if I had to guess it would be alpha lipoic acid (because of the sugar metabolism issues). When I was younger I hated sweet foods, and I’m not sure we should have such cravings.

Loads of good information here. Thanks. Will be formulating a new plan of action! I also think EC is the bomb. I might just take about 10 bottles of that a month!

Regarding probiotics dosage: one of my healthcare practitioners put me on probiotics for gut issues (leaky gut, etc.), and told me that until I improved I would have to take heavier doses, but once I got balanced then could go down to a small maintenance dose of a capsule or so a day. I've been able to cut back from my original dosage, which was 2x recommended.

The consensus seems to be that if you have a moderate to severe imbalance in your gut flora, some type of "probiotic loading" is necessary when starting to heal. After some healing/improvment in symptoms, getting your probiotics from food can be sufficient.

Also, you might want to rotate different types of probiotics for a while, to get a nice variety of flora. Research threads by LittleFighter. His threads contain good recs.

Another thing: IME melatonin is not a good solution for sleep problems. Or if you take it, be careful with it and take a very small dose (it comes in as low as like .30mg). Taking too much of it, or taking it at the wrong times can upset your body's ability to produce it on its own, thereby compounding sleep problems in the long term. I used to take it quite a bit, and in higher doses. My doctor told me that was part of my long-term problem with sleep.

Iodine and good diet mostly resolved sleep issues for me. But for short term relief there is also a great supplement called Kavinace (recommended by my doctor, kinda pricey but IMO worth it) that promotes GABA production.

And if you have adrenal issues, a high-quality phosphatidylserine supplement taken 200 mg. before bed really helps. My doctor put me on PS, too. I ran out of my good brand a while back and finally got some more last week, and I can tell a difference. I won't let myself run out of it again. It works that well, for people with adrenal problems, at least.

Melatonin isn't a regular part of my arsenal. I haven't taken it in years. That being said, when I was having my worst tossing and turning sleep and couldn't get myself into bed before 3am most nights, it did help me fall asleep earlier. CS had advised to cycle it and I did. My wife also used it to get her sleep normalized and it worked for her.

That said, Ecklonia Cava Extract is what I think helped the most supplement wise in regulating my sleep patterns. I fall asleep within 5-10 mins of my head hitting the pillow every night and stay asleep until my dog wakes me up to go out.

Once my sleep patterns got like this, a lot of other things fell into place. I take Ecklonia Cava, Vitamin C and Iodine together before bed every night as CS had suggested in here a long time ago.

I have these gut issues common to you guys. One thing I haven't tried is ecklonia cava - but I'm wondering how absorbable is it? Pretty much every supplement I've added has had no effect whatsoever (magnesium, coconut oil, probiotic capsules, kefir, vitamin D, melatonin etc) in addition to a good diet.

I can sleep every night but never dream, and it takes me a while to get to sleep. Despite getting 6-7 hours or so I'm still too tired when I wake, I feel edgy because of this (and just in general).

Lately my skin has become really bad, especially around my eyes where the collagen is going, you can see veins and shit. Bone broth would be the solution to this, I've been making chicken-based broth that gels and having this every few days when I can but no improvement.

So yeah, ecklonia cava is the next thing to try but since my gut doesn't absorb much I don't hold much hope.

Texas,

Have you ever had a sleep test done? I have sleep apnea, and have the same symptoms as you as far as sleep goes. Fluid retention and veins in the eye area, edgy during the day because of lack of sleep. Morning headaches occaisonally. I am planning on having a sleep study done soon, but if apnea is a problem, its a huge one and needs to be taken care of. I developed it from a combination of weight gain and smoking, and despite having gotten rid of both of these the apnea seems to persist.

A friend mentioned it in passing (maybe a year or two ago) that I "might have sleep apnea or something" when I mentioned I don't sleep well and am always tired. I dismissed it as ridiculous since I'm really thin (though I do have a large proportion of abdominal fat) and have never been told that I snore.

But yeah, now I know more I have to look into it further. I'm just wondering if I am diagnosed with apnea, what are the treatment options - just one of those expensive CPAP machines?

Well.... if there is a correlation between the 3, it makes sense to me. My intestinal flora is a graveyard along with my skin and scalp as i was on an antibiotic (minocycline for acne) for just over 6 years, when i should have only been on it for 2 months! This happened to me when I was between the ages of 18-24 years. I'm now 36 and I've only within the last 2 years started eating yogurt/kefir and taking over the counter probiotic pills. I still haven't seen a difference yet, so i'm assuming my body is so screwed up it will take quite awhile to recover, if i ever do.

I wonder if seeing a NP doc would help? Certainly my GP is/was clueless.

I also wonder what damage acne tablets could have caused me. I still remember mine it was called oxytetracycline, have to say it worked wonders lol I had bad acne and it got rid of it all effortlessly. But I still took those pills over the course of 2 years maybe. The link is there between acne and hairloss, maybe when they say some hairloss is caused by elevated testosterone during puberty maybe its true? Wouldnt high testosterone cause acne?

hadrion wrote:Melatonin isn't a regular part of my arsenal. I haven't taken it in years. That being said, when I was having my worst tossing and turning sleep and couldn't get myself into bed before 3am most nights, it did help me fall asleep earlier. CS had advised to cycle it and I did. My wife also used it to get her sleep normalized and it worked for her.

That said, Ecklonia Cava Extract is what I think helped the most supplement wise in regulating my sleep patterns. I fall asleep within 5-10 mins of my head hitting the pillow every night and stay asleep until my dog wakes me up to go out.

Once my sleep patterns got like this, a lot of other things fell into place. I take Ecklonia Cava, Vitamin C and Iodine together before bed every night as CS had suggested in here a long time ago.

I'll try that stack tonight Hadrion plus zinc, selenium and Mg. Or should I just stick to those three?

Perhaps an update for this thread is in order.

RKKER, IR, Who, Hadrion etc

I think being able to get to sleep in a few minutes is a sign of good health. I've always noticed those that are able to do this have great energy, skin, mood and all the rest. I'm working on this area by removing all electronics (27" pc screen and a 40" tv and wifi out of my room) and looking in to grounding my bed

Since going back on the IH 6 and GAPS I'm no longer waking up in a rage/emotional and it's only been a few weeks. There's been a few mornings I woke feeling like a champ with huge morning wood and my goal is to make that happen everyday. I think it could be related to the humifulvate...one of my most inconsistent supps due to the timing/inconvenience of dosing. I finally got the amalgams out so getting the metals out is a top priority now.

I'm getting veins around the eyes too!! Does anyone know what causes this? Someone recommended K and K2? for this.

I really think there is something to gaps foods. I'm not saying this diet is the holy grail or should be everyone's diet or is a long term diet per se. I've just noticed that it seems to reduce toxicity and alleviate lower back pain as well as increase focus and lift depression. My goal is to stick to this diet for the rest of 2013. I've been having a lot of bone broth and SCD/Gaps yogurt made with kefir starter. The last time I went on the gaps my hair color got darker and my beard got thicker and my skin begun to shine. Those results have not come around this time but it is still early days. My stomach is feeling relaxed and at ease and I've been going to the bathroom quite a bit which is nice for a change.

I'm on the top 6 minus the alpha-lipoic plus a lot of the ancillary supps CS takes like sensoril, quercitin, EcGc (excellent supp imo) etc. Iodine w/co factors.

Has anyone noticed a difference from supplementing probiotics like Jarrow EPS?

Imprisoned radicals post above was awesome. I've noticed that after I eat these days my body tells me to just chill out and not move for at least 15mins. I feel relaxed when I do this. He also mentions stress levels which I'm finding as I get older from personal experience is a health killer in all aspects!

(dairy yes, dairy no, sugar yes, sugar no etc blah blah blah) When it comes to dairy and healing the gut scd/gaps yogurt is recommended because it removes the allergens CS and jdp even ok it so if you feel like you wan't dairy by all means make some it's really not that hard if you have some extra time and you'll feel great.

I only wish Ecklonia Cava wasn't so pricey the time has come for me to reorder and I'm low on funds.

Texas I feel like if your gut is compromised perhaps spending a lot of money on other supplements won't benefit you right now. IMO Look to the basics...Really focus on stomach friendly foods, probiotics, Iodine MgCl, Zinc and other co factors like boron, selenium maybe get some vitamin D and A. Also do you have amalgams? Any metals present in the system will compromise supplements effects. Do a metal cleanse if you feel this is an issue. Heck everyone should do one considering the world we live in.

I'd really like to research sleep apnea more as I feel this has become quite common. I bet CS has some interesting points to make about it.