Power VS Force by David Hawkins, M.D., Ph.D.

I imagine many like me can feel frustrated at times with all the conflicting opinions. There seems to be a conflicting opinion on just about everything. What Shampoo. Yes or no to Implants. What food is good/bad.

Has anyone read Power VS Force? It claims to give each of us to the answer to all these questions, via simple muscle testing. It takes two people. The subject holds an arm out laterally. The tester will hold the item - say artificial sweetner - at your solar plexus. If the tester can push your arm down with two fingers, when the artifical sweetner is at your solar plexus, then this item is bad for you. If not it's good for you. There is a little more to it. But not much. That is the basic idea. Apparently it is consistent. Many trials have been done. And it works for any declarative statement for truth (present tense). And it also works with any item placed in front of your solar plexus for health.

lol dont know about that.

thats the exact same way they marketed the quantum pendant, that is made of volcanic ash that magically gives u more cellular energy via scalar energy (which doesnt exist by the way)

they pushed down on someones hands behind his back, and when whereing the pendant supposibly couldnt push down on the hands because the person had much higher resistive strength.

so no, its a common way to sell scams.

I went to a local holistic dentist who tried to prove that I had a mercury sensitivity by doing this. Problem was that he used alternating pressure when it was in my hand and constant when it wasn't. I told him to stop and resisting wasn't an issue even though he was obviously pushing hard. Until someone proves it in a double-blind study with dumbells (not pushing) I pretty much toss it in the scam pile.

That does look like a variation of the Applied Kinesiolgoy that Hawkins writes about.
Yes I agree, the scam here would be creating the perception the pendant is magical.

However, the validity of Applied Kinesiology itself is the subject I am curiuos about. There have been trials (according to Hawkins' book), none of which there was a pendant for sale. I believe holistic/naturapathic doctors use it. That looks interesting. It's certainly not new. Just relatively new to me.

Anxious1 wrote:scalar energy (which doesnt exist by the way)

Wow...did you like read that on the internet? If so you're surly right...

so no, its a common way to sell scams.

To bad there is nothing to sell^^ unless you have to buy an arm or a solar plexus to work with it...

If ur trying to say scalar energy does exist, then tell me wat it is and how is it measured?

Anxious1 wrote:
If ur trying to say scalar energy does exist, then tell me wat it is and how is it measured?

hmmm last post you said it wouldn't exist and now you're asking questions about it....

An interesting side note.

I've found a couple "self muscle testing" methods. Just little tricks you can do with your fingers. If you google "david hawkins muscle testing" you'll find a plethora of ways to self test. I believe testing with a partner will do best. In either case with my self test I have had interesting results:

As many of you know I just had a zirconia implant placed.

I self tested on the implant being healthy for me. Strong (not harmful).
I just visited a huggins trained dentist yesterday. She recommended the surgeon whom did the implant. She gave me a full exam.
I self tested on her being a good choice for me: Consistently very weak (not a good dentist for me).
I self tested Huggins himself: Strong

Self tested on the mercury fillings in my mouth: Strong (not harming me as of today)
Self tested on a dentist I am going to check out next week. haven't even met him: (very strong)
Self tested on Sushi I had last night: (weaks (not good for me))
Self tested on the supplements I am taking from this forum: (All strong)

It can't be used to predict the future. It's just about the truth of the current moment. And I could be doing it wrong, and I believe it takes practice. But interesting nonetheless.

duel_black wrote:
Self tested on the mercury fillings in my mouth: Strong (not harming me as of today)

At least now you know that your muscle testing is not accurate...

One claim of Hawkin's/Applied Kinesiology, is that the muscles are never wrong. For example if you put saccarin in front of your solar plexus and test you will ALWAYs go weak. Even when blindfolded. This was one of the trials in the book, done among a large group of blindfolded people. Some got a healthy substance in an envelope. Some got saccarin. They switched it up. The results consistent. 100%

pancacke wrote:

duel_black wrote:
Self tested on the mercury fillings in my mouth: Strong (not harming me as of today)

At least now you know that your muscle testing is not accurate...

Actually I don't know that. I could be testing wrong. However, the fillings - as of this moment - could be harmless. They've been in my mouth for many years. Some over 20 years. I am very healthy. However the way I am testing can certainly be wrong.

...reminds me of Quantum Energetics. Its the same scam by where the new age master healing wizard, or whatever title they give themselves, tap out "codes" on certain parts of your body, then test the "results" by pulling your circled fingers apart. When they want a negative result, they pull real hard to separate your fingers, but when they want a positive result, they barely pull, keeping your fingers closed. Being the smart-ass that I was (and still am), I'd open my own fingers when the practitioner would barely pull and it would really throw her for a loop when she was expecting the opposite. I must admit, I lean toward skeptical with most everything, but it takes a whole new level of gullibility to fall for most of this stuff.

calvicie wrote:
I must admit, I lean toward skeptical with most everything.

I am glad to see you owning that. However,

calvicie wrote:
but it takes a whole new level of gullibility to fall for most of this stuff.

I will openly own this.

It certainly sounds far fetched. I am certainly an optismist and intrigued by this "potential" nonesense. I am also not expecting much positive feedback on a scientific board such as this.

Now if I was on an Ekhart Tolle forum I am sure everyone would chime in with "Are you kidding. That is the only truth. Welcome to the party."

However this guy has a scientific spin with 'applied kinesology', and his large group blindfolded testing, so I thought I'd start a thread here. However, at the end of the day it definitely falls into the new age category. No question.

calvicie wrote:...reminds me of Quantum Energetics. Its the same scam by where the new age master healing wizard, or whatever title they give themselves, tap out "codes" on certain parts of your body, then test the "results" by pulling your circled fingers apart. When they want a negative result, they pull real hard to separate your fingers, but when they want a positive result, they barely pull, keeping your fingers closed. Being the smart-ass that I was (and still am), I'd open my own fingers when the practitioner would barely pull and it would really throw her for a loop when she was expecting the opposite.

I must admit, I lean toward skeptical with most everything, but it takes a whole new level of gullibility to fall for most of this stuff.

...says the one who fell for it

Always funny when people bitch about free, non-'scientific' approaches but pop unproven and expensive supplements left and right...

pancacke wrote:

Anxious1 wrote:
If ur trying to say scalar energy does exist, then tell me wat it is and how is it measured?

hmmm last post you said it wouldn't exist and now you're asking questions about it....

Anxious1 was asking a rhetorical question.

imprisoned-radical wrote:

pancacke wrote:

Anxious1 wrote:
If ur trying to say scalar energy does exist, then tell me wat it is and how is it measured?

hmmm last post you said it wouldn't exist and now you're asking questions about it....

Anxious1 was asking a rhetorical question.

right...i take everything back....and to aswer the question nonetheless:
I wasn't trying to say scalar energy extist, I questioned you, proposing it doesn't.

Interesting thoughtprocess BTW., before people had scientific literature and measurment techniques for gravity it didn't exist either hmm?

pancacke wrote:...says the one who fell for it.

haha... didn't fall for it. I just didn't want to admit that the practitioner was my own new age hippy mother and that I let her show me her new and interesting new age fad for that month.

regarding the business of the quantum pendant and scalar energy. (even though the thread is about something else, i feel this is relevant.

i didnt write this, but read it yrs ago when trying to work out whether this pendant can really alkalinise water etc.

companies claims.

FusionExcel’s Quantum Pendant is made from natural minerals that are fused and structurally bonded together at a molecular level.


It produces scalar energy that helps to enhance the body’s biofield. The Quantum Pendant promotes positive flow of en¬ergy and helps to maintain energy balance. It helps to restore en¬ergy that has become weak in the body. By restoring the energy balance in the body this pendant helps one to maintain health and well-being.


Reduces inflammation
Promotes unclumping of cells
Enhances circulation
Enhances immune and endocrine systems
Has the ability to destroy viruses and bacteria
Enhances cellular nutrition and detoxification
Enhances cellular permeability
Increases energy
Helps to protect DNA from damage
Helps to retard the ageing process
Helps to fight cancer cells
Strengthens the body’s biofield preventing
electro-magnetic waves from affecting one’s health
Increases focus and concentration

and this guy from a forums funny sarcastic attempt to debunk it (i didnt write this, but alot of it i agree with, and anyway i find it hilarious)

ROFL

Thanks for that link, now that's funny stuff. Starting from the top:

Quote:
FusionExcel’s Quantum Pendant is made from natural minerals
Are there any other kinds of minerals?

Quote:
that are fused and structurally bonded together at a molecular level.
... like everything except the last column in Mendeleev's periodic table is. And that last column are all gasses.

Quote:
It produces scalar energy
All energy is scalar. Now if we were talking about impulse or a field, we might have had vectors or tensors, but energy is by definition scalar.

Though later they go "For a more comprehensive understanding of scalar energy, please refer to the book “Optimum Energy for Peak Performance with Scalar Energy”, written by Dr. Siva Poobalasingam MD and Nisha Lakshmanan MA (published by FusionExcel International)." which would seem to indicate that they think scalar energy is some different kind of energy. Also that they don't really understand words like "scalar".

Quote:
that helps to enhance the body’s biofield.
... what's a biofield and what units is it measured in, anyway?

Quote:
The Quantum Pendant promotes positive flow of energy and helps to maintain energy balance.
Flow from where to where, and what counts as "positive flow." Is it better if energy flows clockwise than counter-clockwise? Or how do you measure a positive or negative flow anyway?

Quote:
It helps to restore energy that has become weak in the body.
Now that's just nonsense. Too little or too much energy would at least have some meaning (you know, like when a battery goes flat), but energy becoming weak is a nonsense in scientific terms. (Since that's the terms they use for their mumbo-jumbo, I feel that it's not unreasonable to expect them to mean those words.)

Quote:
Inwardly it works to facilitate cell permeability and thereby enhances the many physiological functions of the cells in the body.
Cell permeability is regulated by proteins in the cell wall, to keep very controlled chemical conditions inside the cell. They let in exactly as much as needed of what is needed, and let out whatever they don't want inside.

Increasing the cell permeability across the board would _kill_.

To get an idea, one mechanism that your immune system uses to kill bacteria is to make a very permeable hole on their membrane. IIRC 3 protein pieces assemble in a round frame on the membrane, essentially putting a hole in the cell. It's deadly.

And physiological activity of cells is a function of what is actually needed at the moment. Also see the considerations a bit later about cell metabolism.

Quote:
Promotes unclumping of cells
Exactly how would cells become clumped in the first place, and exactly what does that even mean?

Quote:
Enhances circulation
Circulation is part of a self-regulating feedback loop, so ideally cells get exactly as much oxygen and nutrients as they need. Things like nicotine or cholesterol can get in the way locally, but across the board increasing it is just a waste.

Quote:
Enhances immune and endocrine systems
In an age where many diseases are auto-immune, and where we had a flu epidemic less than a century ago which killed precisely by an immune-system chain reaction, that's something I'd want as an option that can be turned off. Like having it in a separate pendant

Quote:
Has the ability to destroy viruses and bacteria
Really? Exactly how? And if it's that broad spectrum, how does it distinguish against _good_ bacteria, like those in your gut? Or do you start s**tting your guts out like after strong antibiotics?

Quote:
Enhances cellular nutrition and detoxification
Cell metabolism produces superoxide, which is deadly to the cell itself. There are enzymes which de-ionize it almost as fast as it is produced, but it's not entirely successful and a lot of aging and cell death is because of that.

And again that's one kiss-of-death that your immune system gives bacteria. It injects an overdose of that stuff, more than the bacteria's own systems can neutralize.

At any rate, faster metabolism usually means aging faster. I'd be worried about anything that promotes cell nutrition above the actually needed level.

Quote:
Helps to fight cancer cells
Really? Cancerous cells are just normal cells which underwent two mutations in key points: (1) they divide out of controlls, (2) one of the two mechanisms for repairing telomeres (basically resetting the maximum division countdown) activated. But otherwise they work exactly like the normal human cells.

So how would a pendant know which cells are cancerous?

Or if it just kills anything that divides continuously, wouldn't it make your hair and nails fall out, like chemotherapy does? That's some cells continuously dividing right there.

Quote:
Strengthens the body’s biofield preventing
electro-magnetic waves from affecting one’s health
It first remains to be proven that most electromagnetic waves do anything at all to one's health. Unless they mean stuff like X-Ray and UV-B (and then I'd want to know how,) but I think somehow they mean more like cell phones paranoia.

Just keep in mind that only because something gets exploited by scam artists doesn't make it BS necessarily....supplements get lot of discredit in the same way....

i can agree with that .

my theory is that there is a psychological explanation. If the subject is aware of the test and what the results mean, then conscious or more-likely subconscious beliefs will determine the outcome. Meaning it may be a good way to reveal subconscious beliefs about the things or people being tested. So if one has a belief that Dr Huggins is a reputable and trustworthy dentist (conscious or subconscious), the arm will not drop. If there is any doubt or skepticism (conflicting beliefs), the arm will drop. To me this is the most logical and obvious explanation for this testing. So it wouldn't be a scam necessarily because it doesn't appear to work, but a scam in the sense of WHY it works or what the results mean (the interpretation).