Help! Adverse effects from Top 6... Increased Shedding/Thinning.

I started the Top 6 and the DSMO/Lithium/Caffeine shampoo in the end of March so I have been on this regimine for a little more than 4 months now. Around the time I started, my hair seemed to start shedding more (at first I thought it might be a good thing). I stuck with the regimine but it never got better -- the shedding never stopped and is still happening. Since then, I definitely thinned out a lot in the entire front (horseshoe area), a small to medium amount in the back, and even a small amount of diffuse thinning directly on top where I've never had much thinning before. About 1.5 months ago, I quit using the shampoo mixture. About 3 weeks ago, I stopped using the 5hmr lignans. (I ran out of both and didn't reorder).The shedding MAY have slowed a little in this period (I think) but it is still a lot more than I would like.

Is there any particular supplement that most likely would have caused this for me?
More importantly, Is there anything else I should try to stop the shedding and hopefully gain back some of what I lost???
I've read a lot of the postings on this forum, but have to admit, I'm pretty confused about what to do now. Please let me know if you have any recommendations. (by the way, i'm 33, diet is pretty decent, no recent extra stress, generally in good health. -- Hair's been slowly thinning for about 12 years). THANKS for any help you can provide!!

joetr - As part of the original mixture of the topical, I removed caffeine from it due to questionable results from it. From what limited information I have available, the effect caffeine has probably has a lot to do with the dosage. It's possible that too much caffeine could have a negative effect. This is only a subjective opinion, but is based on some anecdotal feedback.

Lithium/DMSO itself also has mixed reactions. Everything from it, works, to it makes things worse, to nothing. I would assume the combo isn't right for you.

Let's get into the lignans. Raising levels of enterolactone is normally a good thing, but individual body chemistry can differ--sometimes temporarily due to Candida, or other factors.

There are two alternatives to 7-HMR lignans worth looking into. Maca at 1,500 milligrams per dose (per meal) or Thai Kudzu, which is called Pueraria mirifica. Solgar makes a brand called PM Phytogen. Nidhogge, a well known member of this forum recommends another brand of Thai Kudzu. It's found on Ebay, if I can get a link I'll post it.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the info. I definitely will look into the Maca and Thai Kudzu/Pueraria mirifica, and had a couple questions:
!. Would it be a good idea to try both at the same time?
2. Is there an optimal time of day to take either of these 2 supplements?

3. ALso, Do you have any recommendations of shampoo/topicals to use in place of the shampoo mixture (in the past month I have been using the plain Aubrey Organics mens shampoo and also Nizoral)
4. Finally, is it possible that any of the other Top 6 may be creating a problem for me? Except for the 7HMR, I am currently using all of them(although not quite as much per day recently)
THANKS!!

joetr - Both Maca and Kudzu are great, either together or on their own.

The best way to space the supplements is to have a morning and evening dosage, so that inflammation can be in check, especially when it comes to Ecklonia Cava (Fibroboost).

The only potentially problematic supplements are the ones you've mentioned--that is the topical and the 7-HMR.

Topical alternatives? Probably the best, although technically not a topical per se, is potent laser coverage.

There's lots of topical options out there, and so far the results are quite subjective, especially since they are often adjuncts to other regimens.

Probably the best topical if you go by feedback, is Super Zix II.

http://cgi.ebay.com/PUERARIA-MIRIFICA-500-PURE-Capsule-Real-500mg-Power_W0QQitemZ170248882940QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item170248882940&_trkparms=72%3A570%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1308&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&timeout=1218570458043

There is a link to Ainterol's Pueraria Mirifica. The instructions for male dosage are as follows:

- 1 tab every other day for 2 weeks
- 2 tabs every other day (30 min before breakfast and before bed) for 4-6 weeks
- 2 tabs a day thereafter

As for lasers, they are INCREDIBLY effective for hair loss, and you can find information here: http://www.overmachogrande.com

I also build the Lemming version of the helmet for people, and those have been quite popular. If you wanted more info. on that, you can drop me a line at nidhogge(at)hotmail(dot)com.

Hope that helps a bit!

IH, Thanks again for the info. Nidhogge, thanks for the links.
I will order Maca and Kudzu this week -- if anyone has any specific product recommendations, guidelines, or links for Maca or any other recommended supplements, that would be great.

Also, I'm wondering if any of the following supplements would help me or would be more helpful than the 2 above: pomegranate extract, DIM, mucuna pruriens(L-dopa), tumeric, chasteberry, nettle.

Not sure if this is correct, but from reading various posts it seems like they all can positively influence hormone levels (to combat hair loss). My main goal is to stop the shedding that's still going on and to thicken up all the loss I had in the last 4-5 months in the entire frontal region. Is frontal loss typically more of an estrogen related problem?

joetr - Frontal hair loss has a surprisingly high number of causes. Everything from neuropeptides, endocannabinoids, cortisol, micro inflammation. lipid metabolism, estrogen and of course Dht.

Pomegranate is nice, but will not help beyond what you're already taking. Prolactin is possible problem, and either Chasteberry or Mucuna pruriens will help in that dept.

Curcumin could help if there's inflammation, but not certain how much more. We were discussing some months ago on a special type of Curcumin called BCM95, which is highly concentrated. If try that route, maybe something to opt for.

DIM will help metabolize estrogens better. It's great for the 40 + group.

Another piece of info that is possibly relevant is that I took Propecia from around 2001-2005.
I stopped because I wasn't experiencing much regrowth and I wanted to get off prescription medication. In hindsight, it looks like propecia may have drastically slowed down my hairloss during that time. I also did not experience any side effects at all. With that said, isn't Beta Sitosterol and Saw Palmetto similar to propecia? If so, would either of these possibly benefit me?

joetr - One poster here presented a really interesting theory on what happens when you withdrawal from Propecia/Finasteride.

You'll find it in a subject which includes propecia in the heading. Off hand, he presented the idea that the body regulates sensitivity to androgen receptors, and possibly when blocking 5-alpha reductase, the body when suddenly without the 5-AR blocker is highly sensitive to androgens. While I couldn't verify this to be correct, it makes a lot of sense, based on what others have experienced with cessation of finasteride.

Using with withdrawal, the best thing to do is to taper off very gradually.

Hopefully we'll get more info on this.

One idea to remedy this would be to use topical blockers, such as Beta Sitosterol like you suggested, which I believe is part of Super Zix II (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Joetr - I really encourage you to add Whey Protein Isolate to your regimen (40g twice a day) + Magnesium (500 mg/day) + L-Lysine (500 mg/day). Every time I use them I lose a lot less hair and it thickens up quickly. Also make sure you eat at least three times a day (avoid refined foods, sugar, fat). I try to use apple cider vinegar as much as I can (in salads) as it has a powerful effect on hair.
The topicals that I use and I'm very happy about:
1/Aubrey Organics Men's Stock Ginseng Biotin Energizing Scalp Tonic ($7.16 at iherb)
2/Dr Hauschka's Neem Hair Lotion ($24.95 at any wholefood store)

I apply the lotion on wet hair and wear a hat from 1 to 2 hours until it dries. It straightens and thichens my hair and slows down hair loss.
I was on propecia for almost 2 years in 2000 and 2001 I believe. I stopped using it because I was still losing my hair even though it thickens hair. (at the begininng I thought I was regrowing my hair but I realized that I was losing them as before taking propecia; it's just that it was overall thicker).
Afterwards I've started using a prostate formula (saw palmetto...). It's been now my 3rd year. I was using the New Chapter formula and then switched a year ago to LEF (contains also beta-sitosterol...). What I can say is that it seems that it helped me keep the existing hair and stopped moderately the hair loss. As for me it works better than propecia. I recently had doubts about the prostate formula in reading several posts here. My experience is that it's good for my hair but I'm not quite sure it's good for my health (actually I may experience from time to time some anxiety).
IH: what are the scientific facts/your experiences for not taking saw palmetto/beta-sitosterol anymore? What if I continue using the LEF formula? What are the effects of having a low DHT level in the blood? Thanks IH.

Malik - With Saw Palmetto, I found that the results were quite varied and side-effects existed, although quite minimal. It only slowed my loss, but did not halt it. In my case, I had groin pain from it and a greasy scalp.

Beta-Sitosterol was more effective than Saw Palmetto and I tried all kinds of dosages. With feedback from others, it was apparent that a high dose was causing diminishing libido.

I will define high dose, which is anything above 100 milligrams. I once thought that more was better and in some sense it is from a DHT standpoint, but it might as well been Propecia. If one where to take Beta Sitosterol, 50 to 100 mg per dose would make more sense.

I didn't notice at first, only because what you perceive is normal may not be, especially when the effects are gradual.

In those days, I was only treating symptoms, but not the cause. DHT is more of a symptom. Blocking DHT has a few problems with it besides reduction in libido, it can potentially increase anxiety and depression. The reason is that the production of allopregnenolone is compromised. This is needed for Progesterone to allow the GABA pathway with respect to seratonin to work together correctly.

The cause is low circulating endogenous antioxidants, such as Glutathione, SOD, catalase and a higher sensitivity to oxidative stress (free radical). We MPB'ers have a much higher levels or reactive oxygen species around the philosebacious units. It could be described as "diabetes of the scalp."

I like to use this description, as if one becomes familiar with diabetic circumstances and complications, all aspects of this condition relate to hair loss and scalp inflammation.

Other factors are altered lipid metabolism which is also related.

Hey Caustic,

I've tried using saw palmetto as a topical (~6 months) and I definitely noticed fewer hairs in the shower when I started taking it. I bought a non-alcoholic based saw palmetto since I heard that alcohol can dry out your scalp if you apply it regularly to your head. Did you or anyone else try saw palmetto as a topical? I just received my DMSO yesterday for your topical mixture, is there anything I should be worried about if I combine the lithium, DMSO, and saw palmetto? A friend of mine is going to Regenix and they are pretty much giving him saw palmetto + some scalp cleansers (according to their patent: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5750108.html), his hair is looking better and its been about a year, but not that much better.

I switched out the saw palmetto for caffeine (Alpecin after shower liquid) in December 07 but I didn't notice any improvement with the Alpecin ASL (also didn't like the strong smell), so i tried their shampoo. At first(1.5 months) I didn't notice a difference, but in the last 2 months my shedding has increased alot!! I've been on your top 6 supplements since February 07 and my skin has improved but not much else. I've cut out most of the bad stuff (very few grains, lots of veggies / fruits), i've done a candida cleanse, and I've been on the probiotics for a month. I bought Lugols solution to get my iodine levels up.

I went to an endocrinologist in February, anything I else I should get checked? here are some of the results:
shgb: 25 nmol/L
DHEA-suflate: 412ug/dL
zinc, serum: 54 (it says low on the report. don't know what the 54 stands for. I started taking more zinc at the doctor's request)
B12: 549 pg/ml
TSH: 2.15 uIU/mL
Thyroxine, Free: 1.32 ng/dL
total Testosterone: 363 ng/dl
normal iron
i had a comprehensive metabolic panel and CBC screen with a bunch of numbers I can post if you want. here is what is out of range:
Creatinine: 1.4mg/dL (high, but my father has the same issue...)
WBC: 4.3 K/cumm (low)
BASO: 1.8% (high)
LYM: 41.2% (high)
I don't know what the number below means, can you explain it? It was on the CBC screen and out of range. Google didn't help much.
NEU: 44.4% (low)

thanks!

Habibalex, What was the saw palmetto topical you are using? or is it something you mix up yourself? it sounded like it was beneficial in at least stopping/reducing hair loss, is that correct?

IH, Regarding Beta-sitosterol, if you keep the dose between 50-100 mg, do you think it would most likely avoid the side effects of lower libido and anxiety/depression? Is there any other downsides or side effects to look out for?

I'm just thinking that years ago, propecia seemed to really slow down my hair loss and I don't recall having any side effects either. I'm wondering, if beta-sitosterol is similar to propecia, if it could stop my shedding thats been happening for the last 4-5 months. I feel like I need to get a handle on the shedding quickly or I'll be shaving it all within a couple of months.

habibalex - Adding Saw Palmetto topically to the mix would be no problem.

A low WBC can be from the body fighting infection or a virus--as long as it doesn't maintain a low level. Yours is just slightly low.

Neu is neutrophil. If your WBC is low that can cause what helps fight infection (neutrophils) to be low.

Your Creatinine level is at the upper end of the normal range.

Figuring out what else should be looked at would require lots of information, medical history, etc.

joetr - It might be worth a try. If you do get sides, you can also try it out topically.

Malik, Thanks for the info. I have a couple questions:
The Whey Protein Isolate, is that basically a protein powder? I currently use 100% Whey Pro-Amino by Health N Fit Nutritionals, a protein powder which has 45 g of protein. I lift weights about 3x/week and use it afterward. Is this similar to what you’re using?

This might be a stupid question, but do you mix the 2 topicals you mentioned or use separately?

Also, what is the LEF formula? Sounds like you’ve had some positive effects but also some concerns?

Whey Isolate is a form of Whey Protein that lacks Lactose--a good thing!

Joetr,

I can't find the brand that I originally bought so I picked this one up recently from Iherb. I had less shed when I when used the saw palmetto previously, though no regrowth as far as I can tell. I'll post again after I've been on IH's topical w/ the saw palmetto.

http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=5209&at=0

Hi Joetr - To tell you the truth, I have no idea about the differences between proteins. Nidhogge answers that perfectly. I can only speak from experience. Every time I use proteins (for the moment I use Enhanced Life Extension Protein - it's whey isolate + lactoferrin - but a year ago I was using Met-rx Protein Plus powder with the same results - it's whey protein isolates and casein proteins), it makes my hair look much much better. I need to say that I do not work out (I know I should )

Concerning the lotions I'm using, I usually apply Aubrey's energizing scalp in the morning and Dr Hauschka's neem lotion in the evening. I also like to use Weleda's Rosemary Hair Lotion from time to time. I don't mix them. What I do is that I shampoo my hair first, dry my wet hair with a towel, apply the lotion and wear a hat between 30 minutes and 1 hour 1/2. It really depends on how much time I have before going out. The cosmetic result is great (thicker and straighter hair). I guess it depends on your hair quality and density. Mine is very dry and kind of curly. If your hair is already very straight, I have no idea what the results will be of using a hat.

In addition to IH's regimen, I use Life Extension ultra natural Prostate formula because it contains ingredients that I feel are the most powerful (Saw palmetto, beta sitosterol, nettle, boswellia...) in terms of regulating inflammation, DHT... I've been using Saw palmetto for more that 3 years (the New Chapter formula was a very good one also). I feel it has helped me keep the hair I had after quitting propecia. It is not a miracle cure but I believe it did better than propecia. I don't remember it had any effect on my libido at the begininng or even today. I'm 35, and my libido is better than when I was 20. Neverthless I think that it has influenced my feelings. I guess I'm more easily anxious or depressed. IH has explained that effect very well. But this is something that the new regimen controls pretty well.

habibalex (or anyone else that can answer),
for the saw palmetto topical, do you just apply the saw palmetto liquid to your head directly out of the bottle or do you mix it with other stuff?
if you mix it, is it something that you leave on all day or do you rinse out (like a shampoo)? also what do you mix it with? I think i'm going to give this a try. thanks.

I put about 7 drops on various locations right on the scalp with the dropper twice a day. Once after i shower in the morning and once before i goto sleep in the evening.

I just bought a spray bottle so I can add Caustic's topical mix in the morning before I shower. I'm going to mix the saw palmetto with it, not really sure what quantity yet. My friend at regenix has one his bottles so I am going to try to match the color consistency (very scientific I know). I didn't really want to mix the DMSO with the shampoo even though it is organic. My mom used DMSO along with some other agents to create mutations in the DNA of rice plants to create different varieties of rice in some of her previous research. She was pretty adamant that I be careful with the stuff...

Well, DMSO is a carrying agent, but is otherwise perfectly safe. Just make sure that your hands are clean and that you wash it off after. I didn't do a good job washing it off once when I was formulating stuff, and wound up with black-dyed fingertips for a few days. Nothing bad but nothing pretty.