Why you may not improve while on probiotics...and what to do

I have no doubt in my mind that probiotics are the KEY TO HEALTH, and the key to resolving and enabling improvement in many diseases, including AGA.

Resolving dysbiosis and getting constant therapeutic amounts of good bacteria provide powerful health benefits like resolving constant inflammation, sugar metabolism problems, hormonal imbalances, reducing and protecting against toxins and providing many other systemic benefits. There's plenty of research out there. There is simply no question about it.

Why do georgians (not Georgia, USA) live very long and healthy lives...? there are various reasons for this, and one of the main reasons is their constant consumption of Kefir.

I see little to none talking about gut health and fixing its problems in here. I'm not surprised, it took me years of experimenting and research to understand this. The lastest research I've read (including comments by CS) indicates a direct connection with the gut and the health of all other organs. Did you know depression in CFS can be improved or resolved with a single strain of probiotics? Did you know that systemic inflammation can be reduced by probiotics? cholesterol?... I have little time to talk about the benefits, the point of this post is something else.

Once again, I see many people suffering from low grade inflammation, fatigue, brain fog, dandruff, oilyness, eczema, acne, body odor, etc, etc. And they wonder what's the real cause of these problems... I think most of the people would attribute this to DHT, hormones and some even just to bad luck. Some people talk about Candida, but sometimes the problem is not Candida at all but a combination of other pathogens, excess acidity, too much "good" bacteria like acidophilus producing D-Lactate and acidosis (surprise!), etc.

After struggling for a long time with what I think is dysbiosis, I finally found a reason why taking probiotics has barely helped most of the time. I even mentioned a couple of times that I couldn't tolerate probiotics. The problem was something like a never ending die-off by most probiotics and worsening of the problems.

It seems that some people have an overload of acidity that is worsened and probably even initiated by the good bacteria we have all been taught do miracles and you couldn't go wrong with them. This acidity causes an overload of undesirable compounds like d-lactate that have negative effects in your body, an example would be the brain (depression, autism, etc). Cutting edge researchers are implicating some lactate compounds and propionate produced by bacteria (yes, good bacteria) with Autism, CFS, IBS and more! High level of these substances have been found in people with diseases like these. This acidity also destroys your intestines and produces LGS.

It seems that people on probiotics that don't do much for them, maybe just some worsening in their condition, are having precisely this acidosis problem. Probably in a LGS-state, the worst thing you can do is to add more acid.

Now, I'm thinking that all of us with problems like fatigue, brain fog, skin problems, hormonal imbalances and more, are suffering from different degrees of diseases like CFS and IBS....! Just take a look at the symptoms, read patient stories. And like I said before, these diseases might be caused by this extremly healthy imbalance in the instestines


So, I urge to read the following article/post that explains some aspects like the correct strains to take to deal with the problem:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.life-extension/browse_thread/thread/19514fcbc8e20bc1


Drop your jarrow eps and whatever, and start using SINGLE and SPECIFIC and PROVEN strains that help to resolve the acid issue, eliminate inflammation and repair the lining of the gut.

One of this strain is Bacillus Infantis 35624 (align), which is expensive as hell. It doesn't produce damaging substances and provides proven results in people with CFS, IBS and more.

Of course, you don't need to WASTE your money, MAKE YOUR OWN YOGURT AT HOME WITH EACH STRAIN. Save tons of money, get flora in more therapeutic amounts and start healing. I started already making yogurt with Yaklut (L. casei Shirota, another very beneficial strain good for acidosis) with sucess! I dropped EPS and started using just LcS.

Damn, you can just buy the probiotic capsules once, and enjoy perpetual yogurt making...
I already posted some info on that.

I'll be posting more information later... I feel like I left gaps in this post, it's just that I have little time right now but... I'm VERY excited about this info!

Will keep you updated on my progress!

I have great respect for kefir. But it seems so complicated and there doesnt seem to be a simple way of knowing where to buy the grains or which ones are good etc.

Have you been able to figure things out when it comes to kefir and what base do you use for fermenting. Raw milk, regular milk, almond milk etc.

Zerx, Kefir is not normally sold, it is given free from person to person. That's the tradition, at least for REAL Kefir.

Some companies sell "Kefir" as starters for making yogurt, but that is certainly not realk Kefir, since real Kefir is composed of many different bacteria and yeast (instead of only a few) in the form of grains.

You would only have to pay the shipping if someone is sending it to you from a distant place in your country.

There should be people all over the states that will give you Kefir. I've seen sites that publish people's information so other can obtain it where they live.

There are many good sites out there stating how to make good Kefir, including different recipes, tips and strategies.

AFAIK, unpasteurized organic milk is the best thing when making Kefir, next thing is organic pasteurized milk and finally ultra-pasteurized organic milk. You could also use non-organic milk, but I wouldn't recommend it.

So milk is the best "base", but you could also use other growing media. There is also water Kefir, which is composed of different strains especialized in fermenting things like fruit juices.

Right now I'm focusing on using single straing to make yogurt and obtain more therapeutic amounts for healing. I'm currently using L. casei Shirota (Yakult), will add Bacillus Infantis (Align) and Lactobacillus plantarum 299V eventually.

I met someone in my area that has real Kefir grains, will ask for some eventually!

The process of making this stuff is fun, but the most important thing is the huge healing benefits obtained from the end product.

Interesting post LF. I have been on probiotics for awhile and have tried numerous other things and there is still red splotchy skin and other symptoms.

I am guessing it is either as you say or I have a problem with BioFilms, which are much harder to get rid of.

One thing that may support this for me is that I feel so much better when I take alkalizing foods such as ACV or go on a lemon fast (Master Cleanse).

LF have you found any sources for Bacillus Infantis. The only bacteria strain I see that is similar is Bifidobacterium infantis

hapyman wrote:LF have you found any sources for Bacillus Infantis. The only bacteria strain I see that is similar is Bifidobacterium infantis

hapyman, sorry, It should be "Bifidobacteria infantis" not "Bacillus Infantis"... my mistake.

The important thing is not to use just any strain but this one in specific: Bifidobacterium infantis 35624

Some places to get it:

http://www.aligngi.com/
http://www.amazon.com/Align-Digestive-Care-Balancing-Defense-28ct/dp/B0015HOBAM/ref=pd_sim_hpc_1

Every capsule costs nearly $1 USD, expensive, but like I've been saying you don't have to buy it forever if you do your own yogurt.


This user review is very interesting:

By C. Bassett "slkdjf" (Minnesota) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
I have had a lot of digestion problems all of my life. Decades of useless doctor appointments, severe stomach aches, special diet from doctor. After a few weeks on Align my mystery symptoms of fatigue, stomach pain, gas, constipation/diarrhea, and did I say fatigue went down by about 80%. I'm almost like a normal person, which is awesome because I've always felt so incapable and weak.

I am very cautious about saying something has cured symptoms that seemingly have no connection to a product, but I have been on a special diet from the doctor with high amounts of protein, fiber, etc. for a long time, to deal with the fact that I wasn't getting the iron, protein, and calcium from a normal diet. I was so tired and dizzy all the time. After a few weeks on this product, my decades long dizzyness and fatigue is just about gone. My dizzy spells are completely gone, and I now only get tired when one would think someone would get tired - late afternoon. I used to be tired all the time. ALL the time. I used to feel an overall weakness in my hands, body, slumped posture from the weakness, as if I could barely stand up. That's all gone now.

The only thing that I can figure is that my digestion was so poor that it prevented my body from getting the nutrients from my food,and now that my digestive system is back to the way "nature intended" I'm like a normal person. If you have the same symptoms, if I were you, this is one of those things I would just try and see if it helps you. I'm so glad my doctor gave me a sample of this.

Are you the guy that posted the ipaper directions on making a probiotic? If so I followed those directs and have some probiotic in my fridge now, made with some capsules with pecin, can't remember the bacteria name L something.

I've eat a bit of it, not too bad, thinking of adding some fruit to improve taste, although my question to you is, how long do the home made probiotic last for?

This is simply untrue - there are posts after posts and comments after commens on this board regarding probiotic and friendly bacteria...

LittleFighter wrote:...I see little to none talking about gut health and fixing its problems in here. I'm not surprised...

lund, OK, maybe I exaggerated a little bit...

What I'm almost sure is that people underestimate or simply don't understand the importance of "fixing the gut".

Also, if you look around, many people are focusing on supplements to offset the damage originated from dysbiosis and related problems. For example DHT blockers, anti-inflammatory agents, toxin binders, etc.

What do you think?

There has been an influx of members in the last few months in here (hopefully a good thing) and certainly the discussion threads popped up on all sort of topics. It is just part of growing -If you follow some of the older threads (few months back) you would find a little bit of a different atmosphere in here.

CS and others have almost religiously prescribed probiotics all the time - references to Jarrows EPS and Dr Ohira's are all over the board. I myself have been using home makde Kefir since last March with good results. When someone asks for regimen, almost all the time a quality pro-biotic is referenced in there.

Your point of reiterating the importance of probiotic is spot on - a reminder is needed from time to time to make sure the basic stuff is covered first before resorting to other ideas...

I was merely pointing out that use of probiotic has been a staple here since the beginning - may be somwaht lost in the clutter of an avalanche of new threads...

Petch wrote:Are you the guy that posted the ipaper directions on making a probiotic? If so I followed those directs and have some probiotic in my fridge now, made with some capsules with pecin, can't remember the bacteria name L something.

I've eat a bit of it, not too bad, thinking of adding some fruit to improve taste, although my question to you is, how long do the home made probiotic last for?

Yes, I am.

Do you mean how long does it last edible while storing it in the fridge? I think for a few days... probably more than commercial yogurt.

If you use a little bit of yogurt made from the last batch as the starter for the next batch, in theory you can make yogurt forever.

A problem when using many strains is, that using this technique eventually one strain may dominate the culture and drastically reduce the other ones, then you would need to use another capsule of the probiotic you originally selected.

Excellent, thanks LT

Here are the strains to use, based on my research.

These strains where chosen for the following reasons:

- Well studied, with amazing results
- Safe
- Resistant to stomach acid and bile
- Don't produce D-Lactate and reduce acidosis (recomemnded by CFS/IBS experts)
- Reduce inflammation, improve digestion, reduce allergic response, reduce toxins, reduce translocation, improve liver function, etc.

Strains:

- L. Casei Shirota (a.k.a. Yakult)
- Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 (a.k.a Align)
- L. Plantarum 299V (a.k.a. Metagenics LactoFlamX) - Reverses LGS, inflammation, rebuilds mucosa
- L. GG (a.k.a. Culturelle)

Use this as starters in your yogurt making adventure. Unlike "ordinary" probiotics (specially Lactobacillus Acidophilus) these won't cause neurologic symptoms or melt your intestines with more acid.

I'm currently using Casei Shirota with excellent results, after YEARS of trying probiotics, I don't feel die off, mental fog, tiredness, hypoglycemic, etc. My elimination is great, with no fiber. Will be making yogurt with Align and Culturelle very soon, everyday. Will add metagenics too. I'm waiting for my yogurt maker and capsules to arrive.

To people feeling they have candida, tiredness, never ending die-off, skin problems, depression,... what are you waiting for?! Go ahead and try.

I found these papers very educating and revealing:

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:HJf-0kaBHbMJ:hkjpaed.org/pdf/2006%3B11%3B246-254.pdf+casei+shirota+d-lactate+load&hl=es&gl=mx

http://www.hdcn.com/6/601kihal.htm

LittleFighter--

This is, by far, one of the greatest threads I've ever seen on this forum. This coming from a guy that's been on the old forum since its inception. Thank you very much for your research.

I may be asking a big request of you, but would you mind making a new post with:

1) Where to get each of these strains via the net

2) How to actually incorporate them into a consumable product

3) How much of said-product to consume each day

The more information that you compile in one area, the better. I'd like to get you in a featured article on the site that OverMachoGrande, ImmortalHair, myself, JDP, Hapyman, and a few others are working on. This is GREAT information.

Agreed. This is great info LF.

I've been looking around and Yakult and the Shiroto strain is kind of hard to come by unless you live in Southern Cal.

Surprisingly though Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 (a.k.a Align) is sold at Walgreens. Also L. GG (a.k.a. Culturelle) can be bought at Target or GNC.

align is on sale at cvs.........


http://www.cvs.com/CVSApp/catalog/shop_product_detail.jsp?%20filterBy=default&skuId=440908&productId=440908&srccode=cii_19483251&cpncode=17-5231656

Hopefully I can finally figure out the mystery of kefir! Thanks LF!

More valid super-strains:

-Lactobacillus acidophilus DDS-1: Many benefits, inhibits many different pathogens
-Bifidobacteria Bifidum Malyoth: Considered the most powerful of the bifidus family

Something important:

-Reduce/eliminate refined carb's, wheat intake, refined sugar
-Don't abuse the improvements you see, wait until you heal to tolerate

After healing the gut and cleaning your system, it might be possible to introduce to your system any good probiotic like Jarrow's EPS. I would keep taking selected super strains in the form of yogurt to receive permanent protection, just like ALA, Fibroboost and ALCAR would provide. Probiotics have shown potent anti-inflammatory effect, increase antioxidant capacity of blood, reduce contaminants and carcinogens, increase estrogen excretion and many other benefits for hair growth and health.

More info to come...

you have PM!

good info by the way.

LF,

I agree with you 100% about gut health and all it's related symptoms. I think many times people believe they can take the easy way and pop probiotics without eating healthy, and avoiding allergens like gluten. If you're eating tons of gluten and sugar, no probiotic in the world will ever heal the situation on its own.

I have been reading a lot lately about different conditions and seeing that gut health is an important aspect in many of them, but it's not the *only* one. For example high copper is something I have been researching. This relates directly to hair loss and low zinc levels, as well as high estrogen. There is a whole disorder called pyroluria which results in high copper and low zinc. It is kind of a mild case of Wilson's disease. It manifest in schizophrenia, depression, paranoia, anxiety, and other physical symptoms like estrogen dominance. These people can have never-ending candida as a result of copper being high. Until supplementation with supplements that compete with copper such as zinc, b6, manganese, etc. are used to fix the situation... gut health cannot become healthy completely.

I am just using this condition as an example of how gut health is intimately related, but not the first step of solving the equation. The more I research, the more I see what is already fairly obvious....the body is one *whole* system. It really takes a lot of dedication and hard work, but you have to keep all the systems of the body working smoothly like a car in order for the whole thing to function well. It is frustrating sometimes because I find myself trying to find the *root* of all physical and mental problems, but I keep seeing that it is circular and all the systems and organs in the body overlap and affect each other. It is hard to nail it down basically, as where to start because it isn't linear.

They sell cartons of kefir at Trader Joes. Although I don't know how much worse it is than "real" kefir.

LittleFighter,

did you ever write that article nidhogge suggested in the first page of this thread?

Do you make the yoghurt like:
http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/beginners_guide/yoghurt/yog_pict_guide.htm

and can you put a probiotic bought off iherb in, instead of the yoghurt starter on that guide?

I'm taking lactobacillus:

Acidophilus,
Bifidum,
Bulgaricus,
Rhamnosus,
Casei,
Casei Shirota
FOS

Anyone know if it's a good combo ?

LittleFigther

How do i know if the probiotics i take are good or bad?
Its quite overwhelming what you say, that even excess good bacetria can mean trouble

Im waiting for CS response on this