Why are so many carnivores bald?

mature_hairline_coper Thu Apr 27, 2023 9:23 pm

I've noticed a large number of carnivore advocates are bald or have severe hair loss, including:

- Shawn Baker (Hat prisoner)
- Bart Kay
- Sv3rige

I'm sure there's countless more examples. Additionally, there are many keto dieters who've lost hair like Asprey.

It seems to me like low carb diets are not the most hair friendly. This would certainly be the opinion of Ray Peaters as it raises stress hormones (whether cortisol is upregulated permenantly or just glucagon is another question). However, I routinely see carnivore / low carb diets being recommeneded here. My personal experience is that I shed less ans experience less hair loss on low carb diets. My scalp feels less itchy, perhaps due to lower inflammation / insulin.

How can we make sure we don't lose hair on low carb diets? Why is it so many seem to lose hair on these diets? And how can we avoid it? Is it due to hypothyroidism? Is maintaining high pulse / temps the key with things like iodine / selenium?

CausticSymmetry Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:31 am

I remember back in 2004, I was in a different hair loss forum, a lot of people "dog piled" on me for suggesting keto was hair friendly.

So if we look at Dr. Mercola, who posited that his hair loss was due to his adherence to the popular at the time, low fat, high carbohydrate and in particular, he blamed it on grain consumption.

Based on observation only, it seems as if Sv3rige (he's got a good hair transplant or something it seems now), Bart Kay, and some others, they probably had inflammation well before embarking on a low carb/ or carnivore diet.

Bart Kay, apparently struggle to get out of bed had claimed to have fibromyalgia during his carb days.

Suffice to say, going low carb/carnivore will significantly reduce glycation damage, however it's just part of a series of points that can lead to hair loss.

Shawn Baker, had a few decades to lose some of that hair. It's reasonable to look at the hair of those who have been carnivores at least since they were teens. There are a few. From what I've seen, all have full heads of hair.

shaftless Fri Apr 28, 2023 3:44 pm

I think it's more than just food. Look at england's royalty. Almost everyone with the exception of harry and andrew are severely losing hair. I imagine they all eat very healthily too. Harry is gradually balding but not at the pace of his brother. And there's a rumour that andrew used botox injections in his scalp to stop hairloss. When a whole family goes bald it seems to be genetics moreso than outside factors.

mature_hairline_coper Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:30 pm

CausticSymmetry wrote:I remember back in 2004, I was in a different hair loss forum, a lot of people "dog piled" on me for suggesting keto was hair friendly.

So if we look at Dr. Mercola, who posited that his hair loss was due to his adherence to the popular at the time, low fat, high carbohydrate and in particular, he blamed it on grain consumption.

Based on observation only, it seems as if Sv3rige (he's got a good hair transplant or something it seems now), Bart Kay, and some others, they probably had inflammation well before embarking on a low carb/ or carnivore diet.

Bart Kay, apparently struggle to get out of bed had claimed to have fibromyalgia during his carb days.

Suffice to say, going low carb/carnivore will significantly reduce glycation damage, however it's just part of a series of points that can lead to hair loss.

Shawn Baker, had a few decades to lose some of that hair. It's reasonable to look at the hair of those who have been carnivores at least since they were teens. There are a few. From what I've seen, all have full heads of hair.

Very interesting, thanks for the detailed response. I didn't know that about Mercola.

The carnivore approach, being a a rather extreme diet, may attract people who are exceptionally unhealthy (like Bart). And those people are more likely to be already bald. I think Bart said he lost jis hair at 28- not sure if he'd started carnivore by then.

Do you mind providing the names of those who have been carnivores since their teens and still have full hair? When I look at carnivores on YouTube I see mainly bald or heavily receeded hairlines lol.

CausticSymmetry Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:00 am

Here's one of them

shaftless Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:14 pm

This guy had lots of hair and ate a lot of meat

Why are so many carnivores bald? Colonel-sanders-gettyimages-72431338

shaftless Sun Apr 30, 2023 2:05 am

Mind you this guy turned vegetarian back in 1975 when he was 33. Almost 50 yrs later he's still got lots of hair.

Why are so many carnivores bald? Skynews-paul-mccartney-waterstones_4969351

Why are so many carnivores bald? Skynews-paul-mccartney-waterstones_4969351

CausticSymmetry Sun Apr 30, 2023 2:41 am

Obviously, being bald or not cannot be distilled down to what they ate or didn't eat as there are a lot of other factors. However, if their diet was biologically appropriate, the development of the jaw, mandible and proper skeletal classes (type 0) will set the stage for zero hair loss if set in before adolescence.

For example, for anyone not aware of the aspects here:

https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t13173-malocclusion-and-hair-loss-an-intimate-relationship

How the superficial temporal artery is affected, in my opinion is the holy grail of the "why" of 'genetic' hair loss. The maxilla and mandible, which make up the upper and lower jaws, respectively, provide attachment sites for the muscles that control the movement of the jaw and the position of the teeth. Changes in the shape, size, or position of the jaws and teeth can alter the forces that these muscles exert, which, in turn, can impact the development and course of the arteries that supply blood to these structures, including the superficial temporal artery. For example, malocclusion (misaligned teeth) or changes in the position of the jaw due to orthodontic treatment or surgery may affect the course and size of the superficial temporal artery.

The blood supply from the superficial temporal artery can stimulate hair growth by promoting cell division and providing essential nutrients to the hair follicles. In addition, the superficial temporal artery contains stem cells that can differentiate into hair follicle cells and promote hair growth.

Medical conditions that affect the blood vessels or blood flow, such as atherosclerosis or diabetes, can also impact hair growth by impairing the blood supply to the scalp and hair follicles.

mistyisland Tue May 09, 2023 12:52 pm

mature_hairline_coper wrote:I've noticed a large number of carnivore advocates are bald or have severe hair loss, including:

- Shawn Baker (Hat prisoner)
- Bart Kay
- Sv3rige

I'm sure there's countless more examples. Additionally, there are many keto dieters who've lost hair like Asprey.

It seems to me like low carb diets are not the most hair friendly. This would certainly be the opinion of Ray Peaters as it raises stress hormones (whether cortisol is upregulated permenantly or just glucagon is another question). However, I routinely see carnivore / low carb diets being recommeneded here. My personal experience is that I shed less ans experience less hair loss on low carb diets. My scalp feels less itchy, perhaps due to lower inflammation / insulin.

How can we make sure we don't lose hair on low carb diets? Why is it so many seem to lose hair on these diets? And how can we avoid it? Is it due to hypothyroidism? Is maintaining high pulse / temps the key with things like iodine / selenium?

CausticSymmetry Tue May 09, 2023 2:00 pm

How can we be sure?

Here's a few points to consider:

At one time, before the introduction of commercialized, processed foods Australian Aborigines
consumed very little in the way carbohydrates that convert into sugar. Certainly not grain foods.

Maximally, agricultural foods have only been around up to 13,000 years.

If we examine stable isotopes in human diet. The ratios of 15N to 14N and 13C to 12C tend to be higher in marine than in terrestrial organisms. The concentrations of these isotopes in human bone collagen consequently can be used to make inferences about the contribution of marine and terrestrial resources to prehistoric diets.

In other words, overwhelmingly we ate animal foods.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3777147/

I brought up the Australian Aborigines in particular because during the time they ate their original diet, hair loss was extremely rare, and consequently, they had virtually perfect teeth from cradle to grave.

More on their diet here:

https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/traditional-diets/australian-aborigines-living-off-the-fat-of-the-land/

Moreover, a diet rich in carbs, will derange optimal calcium to phosphate levels, which translates to poor dental health and sets the stage for hair loss during developmental years.

ManusCeles Mon May 29, 2023 12:07 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:Obviously, being bald or not cannot be distilled down to what they ate or didn't eat as there are a lot of other factors. However, if their diet was biologically appropriate, the development of the jaw, mandible and proper skeletal classes (type 0) will set the stage for zero hair loss if set in before adolescence.

Sorry, but this is a pure speculation.

Take a look at Michael Phelps, who has practically the worst growth pattern imaginable - the so-called long face syndrome (clockwise rotation of a mandible resulting in steep gonial angles and an elongated lower third of the face), transversal maxillary discrepancy (constricted dental arches causing a crossbite) and a (compensated?) class III anterior open bite. Correcting such a wild combination of growth deviations is a challenge even for the most prestigious jaw surgeons. And yet, his head is full of hair without any signs of incipient hair loss. Moreover, he is the best swimmer in the world - in other words, he excels at swimming, which requires an optimal breathing technique that is said to be impossible with any form of skeletal malocclusion present.

On the other hand, we can look at the top football players such as Zinedine Zidane or Freddie Ljungberg who share a textbook-like optimal growth pattern - their faces are perfect in every regard. They both started balding in their early thirties.

CausticSymmetry Mon May 29, 2023 3:54 am

ManusCeles wrote:
CausticSymmetry wrote:Obviously, being bald or not cannot be distilled down to what they ate or didn't eat as there are a lot of other factors. However, if their diet was biologically appropriate, the development of the jaw, mandible and proper skeletal classes (type 0) will set the stage for zero hair loss if set in before adolescence.

Sorry, but this is a pure speculation.

Take a look at Michael Phelps, who has practically the worst growth pattern imaginable - the so-called long face syndrome (clockwise rotation of a mandible resulting in steep gonial angles and an elongated lower third of the face), transversal maxillary discrepancy (constricted dental arches causing a crossbite) and a (compensated?) class III anterior open bite. Correcting such a wild combination of growth deviations is a challenge even for the most prestigious jaw surgeons. And yet, his head is full of hair without any signs of incipient hair loss. Moreover, he is the best swimmer in the world - in other words, he excels at swimming, which requires an optimal breathing technique that is said to be impossible with any form of skeletal malocclusion present.

On the other hand, we can look at the top football players such as Zinedine Zidane or Freddie Ljungberg who share a textbook-like optimal growth pattern - their faces are perfect in every regard. They both started balding in their early thirties.

To be clear, I'm referring to Class II malocclusion (Skeletal). In my research I have noticed that it is the Class III malocclusion that protects against baldness. There's a few well known people with unusual jaw formations with full heads of hair, and generally they have protruding chins.

Class III malocclusion refers to a dental or skeletal condition characterized by a protrusion of the lower jaw or mandible in relation to the upper jaw or maxilla. It is a malocclusion where the lower teeth and jaw are positioned significantly ahead of the upper teeth and jaw when the jaws are closed. This arrangement is protective against baldness.

Superior Temporal Artery represents 85% of the vascular supply to the scalp, leaving the remaining 15% via the Occipital Artery.

So in the now relatively uncommon, ideal, normal that is not normal so much these days, the Class I skeletal, there is adequate clearance (3.5 mm) between the base of the skull, and the eminence of the condyle, to allow for adequate perfusion of the scalp by the Superior Temporal Artery.

Why are so many carnivores bald? Clinic10

In individuals with Class II Skeletal malocclusion, there is a potential for decreased blood flow or restricted circulation in the superficial temporal artery. This is attributed to the retrognathic structure of the skull. When examining the general population, it is apparent that hair loss is predominantly observed in individuals with a Class II skeletal profile. This observation provides support for the theory that malocclusion, which leads to diminished blood supply to the scalp, can contribute to hair loss.

However, in the instance of Class II Skeletal malocclusion, there is the possibility of reduced perfusion or occluded blood flow in the STA, due to the retrognathic architecture of the skull. Evaluation of the population reveals that hair loss is seen overwhelmingly among individuals with Class II skeletal profile, supporting the hypothesis that malocclusion leading to reduced vascular perfusion of the scalp in turn results in hair loss.

Why are so many carnivores bald? Clinic11

Based on 100 individuals suffering from hair loss, direct visual, and observation of dental model occlusion demonstrated that 96 individuals had Class II dental malocclusion. However, a more thorough evaluation of the one hundred individuals, those with or without Class II dental malocclusion, through analysis of their skeletal cephalometric radiographs, reveals that all one hundred subjects selected for inclusion present with Class II skeletal malocclusion

ManusCeles Mon May 29, 2023 4:58 am

I do understand your reasoning - it's perfectly justified to assume the limitations caused by anatomical variances in a dentofacial growth patterns might facilitate hair loss via blood flow disruption.

The problem with this reasoning is it doesn't address what we see in real life. I can identify facial growth patterns and I observe people frequently, and so far there is no common trend. I frequently meet dozens of strangers where I work at and the diversity of sufferers from androgenic alopecia cannot be narrowed down to males with bigger skulls or males with recessed lower jaws.

Another issue is the dentofacial patterns themselves. Having a skeletal Class II (or any other form of horizontal jaw asymmetry) by no means means the lower jaw is poorly positioned relative to skull base. Oftentimes, it's the excessive horizontal growth of the upper jaw that causes lower jaw to not catch up. The same with Class III - an excessive vertical growth might simply push the lower jaw backwards/downwards relative to skull base regardless of how prominent it appears in relation to (already) heavily recessed upper jaw. Bimaxillar retrusion causes face and jaws to appear perfectly normal, people having these often model and have unique looks, yet their jaws are both recessed (pushed backwards/not prominent enough). As I already mentioned in the different topic, dental Class I aka touching of the certian teeth in a "proper way" is not necessarily an indication of skeletal Class I. So jaw asymmetry must be judged strictly in relation to skull base but it doesn't suffice. Applying different approaches to cephalometric records often render different (even conflicting) results, that's why different maxillofacial surgeons draw different conclusions when seeing the same patient.

Since having a perfect growth is rare and often associated with good looks, people from this group frequently pursue careers in media or showbusiness, and judging celebrities is somewhat problematic because men exposed to any form of fame or public attention frequently use finasteride or have had hair transplants done in order to maintain their good looks. Hell, in the modern day era, the prevalence of the use of finasteride or the same caliber of toxic substances among regular men is extremely high as well.

The easiest way is test the hypothesis is simply learning to recognize facial growth patterns, learning to estimate age and be able to identify norwood level. Equipped this way, start observing strangers on the streets and examine the data.

Serge Mon May 29, 2023 10:55 am

So, if hair loss is affected by the position of our jawbones, then how is any supplement going to actually address the issue?

Also, wouldn't that lack of blood flow eventually effect the brain?

CausticSymmetry Tue May 30, 2023 9:57 am

Serge wrote:So, if hair loss is affected by the position of our jawbones, then how is any supplement going to actually address the issue?

Also, wouldn't that lack of blood flow eventually effect the brain?

So regarding these issues, we could hypothesize that if the skeletal class II is corrected, before adulthood, and it is correctable (only before adulthood). I bring this up to turn over the apple-cart on the notion that hair loss is 'genetic'.
I've researched natural medicine for 30 years now, so the genetic idea has never been scientifically proven.

I personally have an overbite (or skeletal class II), and no hair loss. However, that was not an accident--it was intentional prevention and mostly treatment.

So the point here is, having this common dental condition, probably due to sub-optimal diet (lack of K2, Vitamin A, highly refined carbohydrate, which provokes the malocclusion.) This then sets the stage of more of the inflammatory cytokines, prostaglandins set to up a chain of events that miniaturize the hair follicles, because the arteries mentioned (superficial temporary artery being indirectly effected). 95% of people born today have some form of abnormal occlusion.

About 10 years ago there was a dental technician who examines skeletal cephalometric radiographs. This is better than a standard x-ray.

He had observed, the that overbites (Skeletal Class II) were the ones prone to hair loss.

Yet on the abnormally shaped jaws, I often cite Ron Pealman (Hellboy) Senator John Cary, Jay Leno, etc. as examples, which might be more of a skeletal class III. They are the one's that appear to be bullet proof against hair loss.

Why are so many carnivores bald? Clinic12

I just found an upload of the author of the study: Malocclusion and Hair Loss - An Intimate Relationship

Sponsored content

Why are so many carnivores bald?

Why are so many carnivores bald?

Re: Why are so many carnivores bald?

Re: Why are so many carnivores bald?

Re: Why are so many carnivores bald?

Re: Why are so many carnivores bald?

Re: Why are so many carnivores bald?

Re: Why are so many carnivores bald?

Re: Why are so many carnivores bald?

Maybe the hormones in the meat?

Re: Why are so many carnivores bald?

Re: Why are so many carnivores bald?

Re: Why are so many carnivores bald?

Re: Why are so many carnivores bald?

Re: Why are so many carnivores bald?

Re: Why are so many carnivores bald?

Re: Why are so many carnivores bald?