Excess Iron - Best way to ditch the Iron

My last blood work seemed to show I had excess iron in my system. Other than blood donation, what is the next best way to lower the Iron levels in my system? I have read up on "Activated Charcoal" and wondered if this was the answer?

Thanks

Humifulvate, perhaps

"HF has been found to help in various aspects of human health. One of these is mineral absorption and metabolism. For example, HF has been shown to correct anemia caused by iron deficiency. While HF doesn’t contain meaningful amounts of iron, it improves absorption of this mineral from food when it is needed. Interestingly, HF has also been shown to help lower iron levels in people who have too much of it. This may seem contradictory but it is explained by the fact that HF works by normalizing the action of metalloproteins, a complex set of proteins found in the liver, and elsewhere in the body, that regulate mineral absorption, excretion and metabolism."

Renky,

There are a couple very viable and healthy options for controlling iron.

First of all, dietary control. Pay close attention to the nutritional labeling of your foods. I already know that you are into weight lifting and nutrition, so this should be obvious to you - and so I won't spend any time here. There are some food that might surprise you as being particularly high in iron content. Cocoa for example or things containing it. Also pay attention to any multivitamin supplements you might be taking. Many that aren't geared specifically at men (and some that are) come with added iron, and that's generally undesirable for men. Lastly, being into bodybuilding, I imagine that you consume your fair share of whey protein. Bovine dairy is high in iron. When humans consume milk - breast milk for example - it comes with proteins in the colostrum, such as lactoferrin, that help control iron transport/metabolism. The whey protein is just a fraction of the milk protein from cows, and it comes with the iron. Try to find whey that's lower in iron.

And I see you are already aware of blood donations, which is a great way to lower iron load.

So on to the supplements:

(1) Lactoferrin

There is an inverse relationship between lactoferrin concentration in the duodenum and iron absorption. Lactoferrin holds onto its iron at higher pH than transferrin and probably has a role in balancing iron absorption, particularly in infants, which is why its high in women's breast milk. Taking this with meals can lower your iron absorption. You tend to find lactoferrin concentrations in the body (its stored in things like bile) go up at places of inflammation. This is because its there to mop up iron.

(2) IP6 (inositolhexaphosphate)

Formerly called vitamin B8 until it was discovered the body could produce it from glucose. This does not suggest extra is not beneficial. It is a carbohydrate widely present in nature. It is also known as phytic acid or phytate. It has powerful mineral binding properties. It has been shown to destroy tumor cells. It is an antioxidant. It has been shown to lower TNF-a levels and reduce damage to the gut by LPS. It helps prevent calcification.

NOTE: IP6 does not only bind iron. It also binds other important minerals, such as magnesium and zinc. It SHOULD NOT be taken with meals. Phytic acid is one of those things where calculated use can offer significant health benefits, but it must be intelligently used. One problem with the over-consumption of wheat is the phytate...it steals minerals in the rest of the meal. So take IP6 AWAY from meals, on an empty stomach with a glass of water. Studies have tested doses up to 8 g a day with no safety hazards. 500 mg or so should be fine - again, away from meals. Away from a meal, it will have access to the blood and will lower the iron burden. Presumably, any of the other "good" minerals it steals should easily be replaced by adequate levels in the diet, but thats also an indication to make sure you are getting adequate minerals if you are going to take this supplement.

Both of those supplements have been shown to be antimicrobial and lower biofilm.

Columbo -

Thanks! I have been taking Immune Boost for some time ranging 2 capsules to 4 capsules. When I had my blood work done, it looks like it may not have helped me much?

Gates -

Thanks and I appreciate the explanations you shared. I am currently on the IP6, so maybe it is working? I am interested in giving the Lactoferrin a try also. I wonder if this will be enough though? How long should I take this? I am guessing this is not a long term thing?

This may be for another thread, but the iron overload is one of the issues I am trying to tackle. I am working on lowering cortisol (taking Ashwaganda for this), lower cholesterol, lower triglycerides, lower blood pressure (just a little) and elevate testosterone (which was way down below the recommended levels - which shocks me considering I lift weights and am in decent shape).

I would also like to stop taking melatonin, but am confused on what is a good alternative.

Thanks again!

Thanks so much,

Renky wrote:Columbo -

Thanks! I have been taking Immune Boost for some time ranging 2 capsules to 4 capsules. When I had my blood work done, it looks like it may not have helped me much?

Gates -

Thanks and I appreciate the explanations you shared. I am currently on the IP6, so maybe it is working? I am interested in giving the Lactoferrin a try also. I wonder if this will be enough though? How long should I take this? I am guessing this is not a long term thing?

This may be for another thread, but the iron overload is one of the issues I am trying to tackle. I am working on lowering cortisol (taking Ashwaganda for this), lower cholesterol, lower triglycerides, lower blood pressure (just a little) and elevate testosterone (which was way down below the recommended levels - which shocks me considering I lift weights and am in decent shape).

I would also like to stop taking melatonin, but am confused on what is a good alternative.

Thanks again!

Thanks so much,

Renky,

The best advice I could give would be to get your levels tested every few months and sort of establish what measures are keeping you in iron balance. Between blood donation, food choice, and IP6, you could probably hone in on where you ought to be. And then its just a matter of maintenance of those measures for the rest of your days. The thing is, IP6 and lactoferrin are both safe supplements to take on a long term basis and so long as your diet is providing plenty of the essential minerals, you would have nothing to worry about. Both of these are already present in the foods you eat (lactoferrin is found in dairy, inositol is everywhere). They should actually promote better health on a lifetime basis. The body is highly intelligent, and as your requirements for iron increase, the enterocytes in your gut will absorb more iron. Even the presence of lactoferrin in reasonable amounts isn't going to negate that process. You're really taking these things as a buffer for iron excess.

But again, get your blood tested quarterly perhaps and record what you're doing in the interim periods so you can kind of cross-reference what changes you're seeing based on what you're doing diet/supplement wise. That will help you to establish what is a good cocktail (and what doses) to keep for the long term. You'll never know by just intuiting so I always opt for the data when it can be had.

As far as cortisol, the first thing I look at is sleep. Given what you mentioned about melatonin, I'd be interested in what your sleep quality/duration looks like.

And sleep (stress connection) can effect all of those other markers of metabolic stress you mentioned.

Aside from that, I'd also be interested to know how you handle the fat and carbohydrate content in your diet, including: amounts, sources, timing.

Thanks Gates

I am still working on my sleep. I aim to get about 7 hrs a night. I am taking melatonin to make the quality of sleep better. I would like to get off melatonin and get onto something else as I have heard that melatonin can be a bit "so-so".

Diet - We eat very clean. We avoid GMO, steroid meats, we have our own chickens for the eggs, etc etc...

I tend to be a higher protein guy but do have a breakfast meal of (gluten free) oats, raisins, grated apple and Greek yoghurt. I eat a fair bit of cottage cheese for morning and afternoon tea snacks. We have stir fries, curries, salads etc, etc.

I drink an all natural whey (no frutcose or junk) a few times a day and one of those times is before bed.

Thanks.

I spoke to CS a while back and we noted that I was using glysophate (being a keen gardener) and that was coming in contact with my skin. It looks like that bad news chemical was messing me up too...

Renky,

Yeah, I knew you had your diet locked down tight.

In terms of the melatonin, I would disagree with it being so-so. The main reason I think it could have diminishing effects is because people don't cycle it. It will lose
potency if you take it daily without a break. If you aren't already, take breaks from it, i.e. 4 days on, 2 or 3 days off. If you suspect any kind of apnea symptoms may
be present (snoring, nighttime waking, morning anxiety or headache, lack of energy, etc.) get a sleep test. Lay down in complete darkness at least 20 minutes before you'd
like to be asleep. Turn off all electronics in your bedroom, to the extent that its practical. Don't use a laptop or tablet before bed. Don't fall asleep to television. Read a book
or something like that, and then turn the lights out 20 min. before your actual desired sleep time.

I am cross referencing some Ray Peat stuff and they seem to think melatonin is bad? I am not sure where they get that from. I am interested in cycling melatonin as you say, but also wonder what the next best herb is for relaxing? Last night I took no melatonin and felt my sleep was not as good. I could not remember any dreams.

So with the Iron, I just keep persisting with the IP6 and maybe Lactoferrin?

I am going to get some more tests in about 4 weeks. Pressure is on for me to see an improvement or family members (that are Docs and Nurses) will be leaning on me to take statins etc. No way thanks...

While on Ray Peat, why does he slam Krill Oil? I am taking some high doses of that to get my cholesterol and triglycerides down in a hurry.

Thanks.

Renky wrote:I am cross referencing some Ray Peat stuff and they seem to think melatonin is bad? I am not sure where they get that from. I am interested in cycling melatonin as you say, but also wonder what the next best herb is for relaxing? Last night I took no melatonin and felt my sleep was not as good. I could not remember any dreams.

So with the Iron, I just keep persisting with the IP6 and maybe Lactoferrin?

I am going to get some more tests in about 4 weeks. Pressure is on for me to see an improvement or family members (that are Docs and Nurses) will be leaning on me to take statins etc. No way thanks...

While on Ray Peat, why does he slam Krill Oil? I am taking some high doses of that to get my cholesterol and triglycerides down in a hurry.

Thanks.

To me, melatonin is probably the safest, most "natural" sleep aid you could possibly take. Again, its just that the body is a learning computer ( ). If you give it a stimulus long enough and consistently enough, it learns to adapt to it. Which is why the stimulus must be removed periodically and reintroduced if you want to persist with the same effects. This goes for melatonin. It will lose effectiveness if taken too consistently for too long. Cycling is the best bet.

There are some other supplements that are beneficial for relaxation that you could possibly try. Probably the best orthomolecular strategy for pre-sleep relaxation would be magnesium. Certain phospholipids can help, such as phoshphatidylserine or -choline. GABA has also been beneficial to me in the past.

As far as herbally, chamomile has a long history of use as a sleep aid, and you could try taking this as a tea before bed.

What I would do would be to cycle your melatonin, firstly. Go 4 days on & 3 days off. Take a ZMA (zinc-magnesium aspartate) supplement and also GABA before bed, and this can be done nightly if you so choose. (If you'd prefer, the magnesium can also be applied as mag oil, or you could use epsom salt baths prior to bed which will deliver magnesium). Chamomile tea could also help and won't interfere with any of these other measures.

This along with the points I made about the sleep environment above should help. If not, the sleep disturbance could be something more physiological than psychological.

If you find you are just too stressed psychologically and this is hampering your ability to relax as you lay down, I'd suggest marijuana although that isn't always feasible. But its anti-inflammatory and very anxiolytic and tends to increase the quality of sleep by a huge margin.

For the iron, yes, you can keep up with the IP6 and blood donations if possible. This should help lower the iron burden and is safe long-term. Adding lactoferrin may or may not be necessary. Wait for your test results and see. Get the data, readjust. At least that's how I do things.

I believe Peat recommends against things like Krill Oil because of the logistics of packaging/distributing/preserving these things commercially. He says they are too oxidized. I don't disagree, but you get what you pay for. Going with more reputable/quality companies nets you a more quality product. There are places where it doesn't pay to be cheap, and I find that with the oils and with probiotics, this applies.

Thanks Gates.

Donating blood is nearly impossible for me. I have a mega phobia about Doctors and anything medical. You should see me just going in for a check up. My blood pressure goes UP. So sitting there with a drain in my arm and releasing blood would really do my head in. Getting a blood test is bad enough. Last visit the nurse was chuckling at this big man with clenched hands sitting in the chair and looking out the window. Oh man, not good...

So, I am really hoping to lean on the IP6. I am taking 3-4 of those most mornings on an empty stomach and then wait about 1.5 hours before I have any more supplements. I hope this is ok.

I like some of the Peat stuff, but some things seem a little extreme. I have spoken to CS in the past and I tend to lean more toward his way of thinking with the supplements. I think though, other than a few things, IH and Peat are reasonably close.

The thing that still absolutely flaws me is my testosterone levels were SO very low on the last blood test results. I have been on the IH regimen for a good few years too, along with very dedicated bodybuilding. Last Doctor's visit, my Doc asked if I was taking any "anabolics". So I have a decent amount of muscle for an all natural guy. I cannot help but wonder if my testosterone levels were at least normal, what this would translate to in the world of muscle.

Renky wrote:Thanks Gates.

Donating blood is nearly impossible for me. I have a mega phobia about Doctors and anything medical. You should see me just going in for a check up. My blood pressure goes UP. So sitting there with a drain in my arm and releasing blood would really do my head in. Getting a blood test is bad enough. Last visit the nurse was chuckling at this big man with clenched hands sitting in the chair and looking out the window. Oh man, not good...

So, I am really hoping to lean on the IP6. I am taking 3-4 of those most mornings on an empty stomach and then wait about 1.5 hours before I have any more supplements. I hope this is ok.

I like some of the Peat stuff, but some things seem a little extreme. I have spoken to CS in the past and I tend to lean more toward his way of thinking with the supplements. I think though, other than a few things, IH and Peat are reasonably close.

The thing that still absolutely flaws me is my testosterone levels were SO very low on the last blood test results. I have been on the IH regimen for a good few years too, along with very dedicated bodybuilding. Last Doctor's visit, my Doc asked if I was taking any "anabolics". So I have a decent amount of muscle for an all natural guy. I cannot help but wonder if my testosterone levels were at least normal, what this would translate to in the world of muscle.

Hey man, we all have our ticks. Nothing to worry about. I think the IP6 will do you well. Lactoferrin couldn't really hurt either but let the blood test results tell the tale. Get them done periodically to see what your dietary/supplementary changes are doing to your levels.

Yes what you're doing is okay.

Some supplemental antioxidants should also help to lower the damage from elevated iron. Get both fat and water soluble antioxidants. I like good ol' trusty vitamin C and E.

I don't like the Peat style of diet. I think its based on some very flawed concepts. If recomping your metabolic profile (triglycerides, cholesterol, etc. etc.) is your goal, I would not eat a Peat style diet. But that's me.

I wouldn't worry so heavily about your testosterone, just yet. First of all, how consistently has it been tested? On a given day, testosterone levels can swing pretty drastically. I had tests three days apart and saw swings from 200 to over 500. Sleep can change it big time. The food consumed the prior day can change things. Hell, it swings throughout a single day and the time of day of the test is important.

If you want to get a better picture of your test levels, you need to see a doctor who is very literate in male hormones. Get tested a few days apart and do it at the same time. Try to change very little in your diet and sleep between tests.

Are you going off just one test? What time of day was the test? Was it only a total test level and not a free?

Renky,

Had another thought that occurred to me in relation to the points I made about testosterone. High testosterone is not always desirable. Its highly contextual and individual. I believe either very low or very high testosterone can be problematic for their own reasons. I did testosterone replacement for a time and combined with some of the additional measures I was taking, I got up to very high levels. I felt worse. There were moments where it felt pretty good. Workouts, the occasional sense of dominance. It didn't have the effect of making me feel like a god-walking-earth. More often than not it just made me incredibly moody, upswings of energy with downswings of total lethargy. This could partially be chalked up to the way it was administered (once weekly injections, which can cause levels to swing). But I also just don't believe my natural set point was ever meant to be high.

At very low levels I felt bad for other reasons.

I have found that right in the mid-to-high 500s is good for me. I can add muscle very easily. Energy levels are good. I still feel competitive and driven, purposeful. More than anything, controlling aromatase seems to be a major factor for me. But just making a point that what many people consider a statistically low testosterone level doesn't always suggest something wrong just for the sake of the number. Its all about your personal sense of well being as a male when it comes to testosterone and what's right for you.

I believe a lot of the fear mongering over iron comes from the vegan/vegetarian community. And current blood test standards are mostly bogus.

Yet some people get frightened enough to self-diagnose and consume massive doses of phytic acid, which will also leech the most prevalent bone mineral calcium. And calcium is easy to remove and yet the most difficult substance to get back into bone with age! Like... good luck without supreme knowledge and good genetics. Weak bones means shorter lifespan.

Without adequate iron (and chlorophyll) we'd be low on hemoglobin and literally suffocating from the inside. These are the people generally with exercise intolerance. Iron isn't the problem as much as oxidation; any oxidized substance allowed to remain inside the human body is bad... period.

Anyhow, I have eaten lots of liver during the past two years and have never been stronger at the gym. Iron is my friend not foe.

Test replacement is bad btw, as it shuts down natural test production. I'd rather see someone take pregnenolone (and increase liver efficiency) and let the body call the shots. Or exercise and take supplements to increase natural endogenous test and gh. I have never felt more dominate at the gym than while IF. Oh, I'm enjoying your messages btw gates.

Thanks again Gates!

To be honest, I am going off the one lot of blood test results. My way of thinking is that I follow a good diet, I am strict with the IH regimen and I lift weights with great dedication. My Testosterone was through the floor, even with all that. I was feeling it before the blood tests and I am still feeling I have low Testosterone now. I am amazed I am the size I am considering the low Testosterone (50" Chest, 18"arms - 207lbs). I am keen to get this right, so I can have a good go at adding some muscle to carry into my later years. Maybe I have really good genetics for bodybuilding, but have been working at a mega disadvantage? I am not sure..

I will stick with the IP6 for now then and see how I go with the next blood test results. After I got my results, I got some second and third opinions on the numbers (one was a Pathologist) and they all seemed to think the Iron and Ferritin were too high.

The thing that scared me most was that I was on a good diet, exercising with weights and following the IH regimen (all quite strictly) and I got those kind of results. Cholesterol and Triglycerides out the wazoo. Wow, freaked me out.

Thanks again for the posts and helping to steer me in the right direction.

I think the main issues are the iron, liver and the cortisol. I am taking IP6, Choline, Taurine and Krill in high doses.

Coffee and tea is said to bind to iron, somewhere from 5-35%.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/427404-caffeines-effect-on-iron-absorption/

A bit surprised colostrum hasn't been mentioned. Binding iron is one of its many health benefits. That's down to its lactoferrin content.

I have a theory that using both melatonin and colostrum makes a lot of sense for "youthing." Melatonin rejuvenates the pineal gland
while colostrum does the same for the thymus. Both glands swiftly shrink after puberty and in advanced aging, become almost nonexistent.

Gates, I don't know if it is necessary to cycle melatonin as it occurs naturally in our bodies. Walter Pierpaoli has done a lot of research on its anti-aging properties.

http://www.antiaging-systems.com/articles/104-melatonin-the-miracle-molecule

4039 wrote:I believe a lot of the fear mongering over iron comes from the vegan/vegetarian community. And current blood test standards are mostly bogus.

Yet some people get frightened enough to self-diagnose and consume massive doses of phytic acid, which will also leech the most prevalent bone mineral calcium. And calcium is easy to remove and yet the most difficult substance to get back into bone with age! Like... good luck without supreme knowledge and good genetics. Weak bones means shorter lifespan.

Without adequate iron (and chlorophyll) we'd be low on hemoglobin and literally suffocating from the inside. These are the people generally with exercise intolerance. Iron isn't the problem as much as oxidation; any oxidized substance allowed to remain inside the human body is bad... period.

Anyhow, I have eaten lots of liver during the past two years and have never been stronger at the gym. Iron is my friend not foe.

Test replacement is bad btw, as it shuts down natural test production. I'd rather see someone take pregnenolone (and increase liver efficiency) and let the body call the shots. Or exercise and take supplements to increase natural endogenous test and gh. I have never felt more dominate at the gym than while IF. Oh, I'm enjoying your messages btw gates.

The type of iron in liver is heme iron which is much more absorbable.

Dave Draper clarifies this:

http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/4594/

Iron is an essential mineral and an important component of proteins involved in oxygen transport and metabolism within your body. Almost two-thirds of the iron in your body is found in hemoglobin, the protein in red blood cells that carries oxygen to your body's tissues. Smaller amounts of iron are found in myoglobin, a protein that helps supply oxygen directly to muscle tissue, and in enzymes that assist biochemical reactions in cells. About 14-16 percent of your body's iron is stored for future needs and mobilized when dietary supplies are inadequate. The remainder iron is in your body's tissues as part of proteins that help your body function.

There are two forms of iron available from your diet: Heme and Non-Heme. Heme iron is found in red meats, poultry, and fish. Non-Heme iron is found in both plant, animal, and mineral sources. Note that Heme iron is not available from any vegetarian source in any significant quantity, if at all.

Now, exactly what is the difference between the two, and why would anyone care, you ask?

Well, most iron supplements found in your neighborhood health food store are 'inorganic', which is not easily absorbed by your body and can cause symptoms such as abdominal cramping, diarrhea, dark stools, etc. It can even be dangerous if too much is taken -- this is the Non-Heme iron. It's generally a molecule of iron compound not 'organically wrapped'. Non-Heme iron tends to be poorly absorbed, and is well known to generate the formation of free radicals, molecules that damage cell membranes throughout the body. Think of it as particles of rust, circulating throughout your body. Where's the Rust-Oleum?

That's why our body has magically found a way insulate us from our own body's iron by placing it within what is called a Heme ring (hemoglobin), effectively wrapping the iron in a plastic coated cover, keeping it pure and non-rusted. We need the iron for oxygen transfer, but we also need to be protected from it internally. Heme iron is this same natural form of iron already found and used in our own body. Rarely has an overdose occurred in taking Heme iron supplements. It's readily absorbed, and almost immediately usable by your body.

The richest source of natural occurring Heme iron is liver.

Again, remember that Heme iron is involved in every process of oxygen transfer in your body, and almost all metabolic & protein synthesis processes.

I have also found that milk thistle is good for binding iron, so I am giving that a go as well.

So would taking liver tablets jack up my iron levels?

Renky wrote:So would taking liver tablets jack up my iron levels?

Seems logical, but since it is heme iron, should not be a problem, as explained by Dave Draper in my post above.

Delphine wrote:
Melatonin rejuvenates the pineal gland
while colostrum does the same for the thymus. Both glands swiftly shrink after puberty and in advanced aging,  become almost nonexistent.

Gates, I don't know if it is necessary to cycle melatonin as it occurs naturally in our bodies.  Walter Pierpaoli has done a lot of research on its anti-aging properties.

http://www.antiaging-systems.com/articles/104-melatonin-the-miracle-molecule

Glands are the orchestra conductors, with the pineal mediating all as the master gland. Get your pineal in shape and everything falls into place.

But we're not supposed to know any age old wisdom. Instead only the present exists and we should depend our life's satisfaction to chasing an elusive modern status quo. Only then can the adrenals cortex and amygdala truly dominate.

Melatonin is ok as it doesn't shut down endogenous production. I like time-release the best. However I would rather see people up their bodies own conversion, starting with tryptophan. Niacin is also converted from tryptophan, so having enough (along with B6) will ensure adequate serotonin/melatonin production.

4039 wrote: Glands are the orchestra conductors, with the pineal mediating all as the master gland. Get your pineal in shape and everything falls into place.

But we're not supposed to know any age old wisdom. Instead only the present exists and we should depend our life's satisfaction to chasing an elusive modern status quo. Only then can the adrenals cortex and amygdala truly dominate.

So are you, for example, recommending meditation?

Melatonin is ok as it doesn't shut down endogenous production. I like time-release the best. However I would rather see people up their bodies own conversion, starting with tryptophan. Niacin is also converted from tryptophan, so having enough (along with B6) will ensure adequate serotonin/melatonin production.

Interesting...how much tryptophan would you advise taking?

So... For my iron issues, I am now taking IP6 and Milk Thistle. Here is hoping...

(Part III) Whole grain toxicity - Phytic acid causes bone loss (Opinion)
http://www.naturalnews.com/030512_whole_grains_phytic_acid.html