Bloodflow theory

If a lack of blood is the problem, then wouldn't a topical with nutrients and other things important to follicle growth be a solution?

First thought as I noticed you post this: even if you could create a topical that would approximate not only the contents, concentrations, and immuno chemistry of your particular blood type...imagine turnover. How much blood is pumped through a capillary bed every minute of every day? How much oxygen and how many nutrients are turned over chemically during each minute by the target tissue? In my mind, you're talking about throwing a jello cup at a thing that eats entire buffet lines a couple times a day. But this is just my immediate thought, so there may be a good point I'm missing here.

Increasing circulation (and decreasing inflammation) without fixing nutritional deficiencies is like working hard, but not smart. An increase especially in microcirculation is definitely a great start, but simply places you a few feet back from last year's zero. So yeah, circulation is sort of the ying to nutrition's yang in hair growth.

AS54 wrote:First thought as I noticed you post this: even if you could create a topical that would approximate not only the contents, concentrations, and immuno chemistry of your particular blood type...imagine turnover. How much blood is pumped through a capillary bed every minute of every day? How much oxygen and how many nutrients are turned over chemically during each minute by the target tissue? In my mind, you're talking about throwing a jello cup at a thing that eats entire buffet lines a couple times a day. But this is just my immediate thought, so there may be a good point I'm missing here.

those were my thoughts too, but blood flow supporters cite dutamescence and margo methods, which do not provide increased blood flow for extended periods of time.

4039 wrote:Increasing circulation (and decreasing inflammation) without fixing nutritional deficiencies is like working hard, but not smart. An increase especially in microcirculation is definitely a great start, but simply places you a few feet back from last year's zero. So yeah, circulation is sort of the ying to nutrition's yang in hair growth.

just fyi i've seen you write this before, it's "yin" not "ying"

if it were the yin, then that would mean circulation is an opposing force to nutrition. i think you mean they both compliment each other, right?

bananasinpajamas wrote:

4039 wrote:Increasing circulation (and decreasing inflammation) without fixing nutritional deficiencies is like working hard, but not smart. An increase especially in microcirculation is definitely a great start, but simply places you a few feet back from last year's zero. So yeah, circulation is sort of the ying to nutrition's yang in hair growth.

just fyi i've seen you write this before, it's "yin" not "ying"

if it were the yin, then that would mean circulation is an opposing force to nutrition. i think you mean they both compliment each other, right?

WTF is it with wise-asses around here lately?  And a new guy no less. Not anyone who has really added much content or relevance.

Actually it's a concept more related to harmony as much as opposing elements. While they aren't necessarily opposing they are contrasting and interrelated. They fit each other like lock and key. Alkaline is the circulation to the building blocks' acid. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth. There's another one for you.

It almost makes me wonder why anyone bothers. Meanwhile a doctor will ask for payment while being beneath your contempt. BTW, try capitalizing the beginning of your sentences. Here's my nice guy emoticon.

There you go with the whining again, 4039. How is it bananapajama's fault that you make "typos"? Which, BTW, I strongly suspect those "typos" are malapropisms not actual typing mistakes, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Saying "ying" instead of "yin" and typing "hypocratic oath" when you mean "Hippocratic oath" is like leaving your fly open after you leave the bathroom. Don't you *want* someone to tell you about it, so you stop doing it (and thus stop looking like an idiot in the process)?

Further, don't talk about the new guy has no business stepping to you because your contributions are so much more worthy and relevant and you've been here longer. In case you haven't noticed, there is no seniority on ImmortalHair, except that which the members accord to one another out of respect. Courtesy and seeking information in good faith wins respect more surely than arrogance and self-reverence. So right now bananas has more standing around here than *you* do.

STOP WHINING.

I'll actually clarify, as old habits do die hard. Not that it's relevant to much of anything, but then welcome to the new ImmortalHair forum circa 2014. I have typed ying and yang in the past, while knowing better. It's considered rude, and rhetorical pedagogy and pedantry to point out an error in communication. I've never done it an won't unless responding in kind. Really digging now though. The floor could be spotless except for that one piece of dirt. lol?

Hmmm, I think you mean "rhetorically pedantic", not "rhetorical pedagogy", Mr. Malaprop.  

"Pedantic" is an adjective meaning nitpicky, tedious, and of very small scope/focus.  "Pedagogy" is a noun referring to teaching a curriculum or subject.  The word pedagogy cannot be used as a modifier.  Ever.

Bwuhahaha.  

It's called Google.  You referred some of us to it in the past.  You should try it sometime your ownself before using 10 dollar words you can't pay for, all the while criticizing other people for their lack of intellectual prowess.

But don't worry, I'm beginning to get it.  You're special.  It doesn't matter that you use the wrong words in your sentences or misconstrue concepts...you're intellectually superior to the rest of us and that. is. all.

Oh, and here's your random emoticon for this post:   

im not being a smartass i was just trying to politely help you.

and since you want to debate this, yin and yang are opposite forces. together as a whole it represents the universe, and so they are complimentary as well.

this is different from circulation and nutrition. although both are needed, circulation without nutrition and nutrition without circulation does not lead to an imbalance.

in other words, they compliment each other, but because they are not opposite in nature, the yin yang comparison doesn't work.

would you say cookies and milk, peanut butter and jelly are like "ying" and yang? no. hot and cold. dark and light. soft and hard. that is yin and yang.

4039 wrote:

bananasinpajamas wrote:

4039 wrote:Increasing circulation (and decreasing inflammation) without fixing nutritional deficiencies is like working hard, but not smart. An increase especially in microcirculation is definitely a great start, but simply places you a few feet back from last year's zero. So yeah, circulation is sort of the ying to nutrition's yang in hair growth.

just fyi i've seen you write this before, it's "yin" not "ying"

if it were the yin, then that would mean circulation is an opposing force to nutrition. i think you mean they both compliment each other, right?

WTF is it with wise-asses around here lately?  And a new guy no less. Not anyone who has really added much content or relevance.

Actually it's a concept more related to harmony as much as opposing elements. While they aren't necessarily opposing they are contrasting and interrelated. They fit each other like lock and key. Alkaline is the circulation to the building blocks' acid. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth. There's another one for you.

It almost makes me wonder why anyone bothers. Meanwhile a doctor will ask for payment while being beneath your contempt. BTW, try capitalizing the beginning of your sentences. Here's my nice guy emoticon.

Helpful how? You were just being rude. And I already stated the concept of they being directly yin and yang, alkaline and acid.

bananasinpajamas wrote:

AS54 wrote:First thought as I noticed you post this: even if you could create a topical that would approximate not only the contents, concentrations, and immuno chemistry of your particular blood type...imagine turnover. How much blood is pumped through a capillary bed every minute of every day? How much oxygen and how many nutrients are turned over chemically during each minute by the target tissue? In my mind, you're talking about throwing a jello cup at a thing that eats entire buffet lines a couple times a day. But this is just my immediate thought, so there may be a good point I'm missing here.

those were my thoughts too, but blood flow supporters cite dutamescence and margo methods, which do not provide increased blood flow for extended periods of time.

wrong, detumescence actually makes it possible again for blood to flow freely through the whole scalp ALL the time, not only shortly after massage.

BelieveInIt wrote:

bananasinpajamas wrote:

AS54 wrote:First thought as I noticed you post this: even if you could create a topical that would approximate not only the contents, concentrations, and immuno chemistry of your particular blood type...imagine turnover. How much blood is pumped through a capillary bed every minute of every day? How much oxygen and how many nutrients are turned over chemically during each minute by the target tissue? In my mind, you're talking about throwing a jello cup at a thing that eats entire buffet lines a couple times a day. But this is just my immediate thought, so there may be a good point I'm missing here.

those were my thoughts too, but blood flow supporters cite dutamescence and margo methods, which do not provide increased blood flow for extended periods of time.

wrong, detumescence actually makes it possible again for blood to flow freely through the whole scalp ALL the time, not only shortly after massage.

This whole bloodflow issue is a headache. on one level it seems logical that bloodflow within the galea is somewhat restricted because it feels tighter than elsewhere; secondly, many guys who have expanded 'bulbous' skulls also seem to be candidates for hair loss, so one would conclude that an enlarged cranium also causes a tighter scalp. But what about hydrocephalus sufferers? They have abnormally large craniums, but do all of them suffer baldness as a result of a tightened scalp? This i do not know.

Something else that cannot be ignored; the scalp in hairloss sufferers seems to sweat a great deal. In order for the scalp to sweat so much, then it must be carrying lots of warm blood, as well as causing blood vessels to dilate. Additionally, the scalp produces lots of sebum, which would further suggest increased bloodflow.

Confused? Me too.

BTW here's a piece of information which *may* explain this strange paradox... basically due to the scalp being tighter, it may require extra bloodlfow to stablize ATP levels, as a result of increased oxygen delivery the tissue becomes more metabolically active and produces more carbon dioxide (and heat and sweat), which, in turn, causes decreased blood pH in scalp tissue. Decreased blood pH leads to inflammation.

[CS or Anthony, it would be nice to get your opinions on this]:

Levels of Oxygen in a Tissue
How can it be determined if a tissue is more active and thus requires more oxygen? One way to determine this is by the amount of oxygen present in a tissue. If a tissue is using more oxygen, then one would expect that the amount of oxygen would be lower. When this is the case, more oxygen is delivered to the tissue. Another indicator that a tissue has a high metabolic rate, meaning that there is a need for increased oxygen delivery, is the production of Carbon Dioxide. When a tissue is more active, the amount of carbon dioxide produced will be increased. Carbon dioxide reacts with water as is shown in the following equation:

CO2+ H2O <---------> H+ + HCO-3

This shows that as the amount of carbon dioxide increases, more H+ is formed and the pH will decrease. In other words, the more CO2 present, the more H+ is formed (so the lower the pH; remember pH is inversely related to the H+ concentration by the equation pH = -log[H+])

A lower pH in the blood is suggestive of an increased carbon dioxide concentration which in turn, is suggestive of a more active tissue that requires more oxygen. According to Bohr, the lower pH will cause hemoglobin to deliver more oxygen. If the amount of oxygen and pH should drop together, even more oxygen will be delivered than if only one of the these factors were changed. If the pH of the tissues should rise due to a drop in the carbon dioxide concentration, then less oxygen will be delivered.

The Bohr Effect is dependent upon cooperativity between the hemoglobin tetramer and the Heme group; it is key to note that although myoglobin and hemoglobin are very similar, myoglobin does not exhibit this effect because Myoglobin, a monomer, does not exhibit any cooperative interactions. If the hemoglobin's cooperativity is weak, then the Bohr effect will in turn be low.

This phenomenon explains why Hemoglobin can readily release oxygen in human tissue. The pH of the tissue is much lower than in the human lungs, so the blood will want to release the oxygen creating hemoglobin in its t-state. Once the blood travels back to the lungs, where the pH is higher, the blood will pick up more oxygen for transport. Myoglobin holds onto its oxygen in the tissue because it is not influenced by the Bohr effect. On average, the hemoglobin can release 66% of its oxygen, whereas myoglobin only releases about 7%.

If a person were to increase their physical activity, and take in more oxygen. The transport of oxygen per red blood cell would increase as well because the CO2 levels would rise in the body, leading to a lower pH in the tissues. Another factor that will also affect the binding of oxygen to hemoglobin is temperature, which may be affected due to physical activity among many other factors. A more active tissue will be producing more heat and will be warmer. This increased temperature may lead to changes in hemoglobin's affinity to oxygen in a similar fashion as would be expected from a decrease in pH

still the question remains. and its a big one.

transplanted hair into the top and front, areas with supposed blood flow problems, stay healthy and strong

whodathunkit wrote:Hmmm, I think you mean "rhetorically pedantic", not "rhetorical pedagogy", Mr. Malaprop.  

"Pedantic" is an adjective meaning nitpicky, tedious, and of very small scope/focus.  "Pedagogy" is a noun referring to teaching a curriculum or subject.  The word pedagogy cannot be used as a modifier.  Ever.

Bwuhahaha.  

It's called Google.  You referred some of us to it in the past.  You should try it sometime your ownself before using 10 dollar words you can't pay for, all the while criticizing other people for their lack of intellectual prowess.

But don't worry, I'm beginning to get it.  You're special.  It doesn't matter that you use the wrong words in your sentences or misconstrue concepts...you're intellectually superior to the rest of us and that. is. all.

Oh, and here's your random emoticon for this post:   

I think you reacted with bombast instead of thinking first. Sorry, I have to respond to this one.

Rhetorical is an adjective, pedagogy and pedantry are both nouns. Just because you never saw those words, or perhaps assembled them together, doesn't mean those phrases don't exist. Maybe your Google is broked.

It was my polite way of saying there are teachers and then there are the plain petty. Rhetoric is a powerful tool of persuasion, either good or bad.

Just as "ad hominem" has several different meanings, of which too you have discovered. I am almost certain lol? you're familiar with (adj) ad hominem (n) attacks.

And you should see my $20 words. Don't make semi-stalking a habit. TIA.

4039:  once again, most of what you said does not make sense.  Some did, most didn't.  You really need to stop...you're increasingly exposing your ignorance with every post.

I never said anything about what kind of word rhetorical is.  I only enlightened you as to the proper use of the proper forms of words derived from the root word "pedant".  Of which pedantry *is* a noun form (points to you for getting something right!  ), and pedantic is an adjective form.

As far as stalking you...well, maybe, a little.  But again, I have a thing for poking holes in gasbags.  Call it an unfortunate compulsion.   

But please know that as long as you're not acting like an arrogant, hyper-intelligent little princeling who knows more about most things than most people on this board, you won't hear a peep from me.  

FWIW, I am perfectly cognizant that you likely do know more about some things than some people on this board.  For example, I suspect you probably know more than me about electric medicine.  That's okay.  I don't claim to be knowledgeable in areas where I ain't.  But you do NOT know more than Beebrox or rdkml about electric medicine.  There are people around here who know more than you about that.  They're just not me.  Again, just for example.

However, since I suspect you really believe you are a hyper-intelligent princeling who thinks he's entitled to an audience without offering much proof that he's worthy of one, I'm not sure you *can* stop acting like that.  

I also suspect not too many people have ever enlightened you as to the limitations of your knowledge and intelligence, or the best way to overcome those limits while not making yourself look ridiculous in the process.  IMO that's kind of sad.  Those limits can be overcome, with time and patience.  But you'll continue misusing words and generally making yourself look ridiculous in areas you don't know much about until you get that.  

And with that, I concede victory to you. You win this bitch fight, just by dint of sheer perseverance.  I can't do it any more.  I don't have time.  So please, by all means, continue winning friends and influencing people with your compelling wealth of knowledge about all subjects, and your stellar online persona. You'll go far.   

bananasinpajamas wrote:still the question remains. and its a big one.

transplanted hair into the top and front, areas with supposed blood flow problems, stay healthy and strong

I've read that transplant patients are prescribed propecia to prevent these hairs from gradually suffering the same fate, so who knows what would happen if the patient stopped taking propecia? I also came across a guy on some documentary who said that he had five hair transplants, but the transplanted hair shedded and now he is left with scars at the nape of his neck. But then we also read about the head-hair-transplanted-into-the-forearm experiment and how it continued to shrink.

It's a hall of smoke and mirrors for sure.

BTW here is a daily mail report about a guy whose transplanted failed. According to the report 10% of transplant patients continue to go bald. A small percentage, yes, but still it would be interesting to find out why this happens:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2552344/A-failed-hair-transplant-left-disfigured-scars-I-colour-pencil-Man-regrets-paying-cosmetic-treatment.html

healthy hair transplanted to an unhealthy area gradually degenerates over time from cycle to cycle til it's gone. it only takes a few years.

BelieveInIt wrote:healthy hair transplanted to an unhealthy area gradually degenerates over time from cycle to cycle til it's gone. it only takes a few years.

This wiki article says that the following factors induce cellular apoptosis:

"A cell initiates intracellular apoptotic signaling in response to a stress, which may bring about cell suicide. The binding of nuclear receptors by glucocorticoids,[13] heat,[13] radiation,[13] nutrient deprivation,[13] viral infection,[13] hypoxia[13] and increased intracellular calcium concentration,[14] for example, by damage to the membrane, can all trigger the release of intracellular apoptotic signals by a damaged cell. A number of cellular components, such as poly ADP ribose polymerase, may also help regulate apoptosis.[15]"

So, depending upon the reliability of the info in that article, hypoxia, heat, radiation, calcification, etc, can cause apoptosis... things we have previously identified as hair loss triggers.

ETA: I should mention; I have most obvious inflammatory triggers under control, although what i think may be preventing temple regrowth is pillow compression. The fact is I occasionally wake up with inflammation within the temple I have been sleeping on the most; it is not severe, yet it is noticeable, so it could be that this inflammation is ongoing during the duration i am asleep. When i get up and start moving around, the inflammation seems to go away, so this might be related to hypoxia induced apoptosis. And on a final note; these symptoms become even more marked when my bedroom is poorly ventilated.

Xenon wrote:

BelieveInIt wrote:healthy hair transplanted to an unhealthy area gradually degenerates over time from cycle to cycle til it's gone. it only takes a few years.

This wiki article says that the following factors induce cellular apoptosis:

"A cell initiates intracellular apoptotic signaling in response to a stress, which may bring about cell suicide. The binding of nuclear receptors by glucocorticoids,[13] heat,[13] radiation,[13] nutrient deprivation,[13] viral infection,[13] hypoxia[13] and increased intracellular calcium concentration,[14] for example, by damage to the membrane, can all trigger the release of intracellular apoptotic signals by a damaged cell. A number of cellular components, such as poly ADP ribose polymerase, may also help regulate apoptosis.[15]"

So, depending upon the reliability of the info in that article, hypoxia, heat, radiation, calcification, etc, can cause apoptosis... things we have previously identified as hair loss triggers.

ETA: I should mention; I have most obvious inflammatory triggers under control, although what i think may be preventing temple regrowth is pillow compression. The fact is I occasionally wake up with inflammation within the temple I have been sleeping on the most; it is not severe, yet it is noticeable, so it could be that this inflammation is ongoing during the duration i am asleep. When i get up and start moving around, the inflammation seems to go away, so this might be related to hypoxia induced apoptosis. And on a final note; these symptoms become even more marked when my bedroom is poorly ventilated.

Idk Xenon....

Lots of people that undergo radiation therapy, homeless men that are always in the sun and barely eat (and drink excessive amounts of alcohol on top of that), and people like DREXX, Duketronix, Casperz, slowmoe etc. who have been bald for years and years just regrow/maintain their hair after promoting blood flow (via effective manuals)... On top of this, there is some good evidence that suggests that hair follicles never die...

Even Zambutu, who has a tight scalp and hasn't washed his hair with any shampoo/liquid soap for 10 years (just with water) still has little hairs all over his scalp.

BTW, since we're on this subject, I figured I'd post this article... It's pretty interesting.

http://www.hairloss-research.org/UpdateProofThatHairFolliculesNeverDie8-12.html

Thoughts?

PS: I'm seeing slight regrowth and thickening after adding MSM to my current regimen.... MSM addresses calcification (even at bone level), fibrosis/scar tissue, detoxification, cellular oxygenation, and more.

Xenon wrote:

bananasinpajamas wrote:still the question remains. and its a big one.

transplanted hair into the top and front, areas with supposed blood flow problems, stay healthy and strong

I've read that transplant patients are prescribed propecia to prevent these hairs from gradually suffering the same fate, so who knows what would happen if the patient stopped taking propecia? I also came across a guy on some documentary who said that he had five hair transplants, but the transplanted hair shedded and now he is left with scars at the nape of his neck. But then we also read about the head-hair-transplanted-into-the-forearm experiment and how it continued to shrink.

It's a hall of smoke and mirrors for sure.

BTW here is a daily mail report about a guy whose transplanted failed. According to the report 10% of transplant patients continue to go bald. A small percentage, yes, but still it would be interesting to find out why this happens:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2552344/A-failed-hair-transplant-left-disfigured-scars-I-colour-pencil-Man-regrets-paying-cosmetic-treatment.html

jesus look at that ivory dome. no wonder he kept going bald

no. transplant patients are prescribed propecia to keep their existing non transplant hair.

i dont know about the guy in the documentary, he might have had some issues. but in general transplanted hair stays with no need for maintenance

10% continue to go bald, non transplanted hair--yes as to be expected but the transplanted hair remains.

Xenon wrote:

bananasinpajamas wrote:still the question remains. and its a big one.

transplanted hair into the top and front, areas with supposed blood flow problems, stay healthy and strong

I've read that transplant patients are prescribed propecia to prevent these hairs from gradually suffering the same fate, so who knows what would happen if the patient stopped taking propecia? I also came across a guy on some documentary who said that he had five hair transplants, but the transplanted hair shedded and now he is left with scars at the nape of his neck. But then we also read about the head-hair-transplanted-into-the-forearm experiment and how it continued to shrink.

It's a hall of smoke and mirrors for sure.

BTW here is a daily mail report about a guy whose transplanted failed. According to the report 10% of transplant patients continue to go bald. A small percentage, yes, but still it would be interesting to find out why this happens:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2552344/A-failed-hair-transplant-left-disfigured-scars-I-colour-pencil-Man-regrets-paying-cosmetic-treatment.html

bananasinpajamas wrote:no. transplant patients are prescribed propecia to keep their existing non transplant hair.

i dont know about the guy in the documentary, he might have had some issues. but in general transplanted hair stays with no need for maintenance

10% continue to go bald, non transplanted hair--yes as to be expected but the transplanted hair remains.

Xenon wrote:

bananasinpajamas wrote:still the question remains. and its a big one.

transplanted hair into the top and front, areas with supposed blood flow problems, stay healthy and strong

I've read that transplant patients are prescribed propecia to prevent these hairs from gradually suffering the same fate, so who knows what would happen if the patient stopped taking propecia? I also came across a guy on some documentary who said that he had five hair transplants, but the transplanted hair shedded and now he is left with scars at the nape of his neck. But then we also read about the head-hair-transplanted-into-the-forearm experiment and how it continued to shrink.

It's a hall of smoke and mirrors for sure.

BTW here is a daily mail report about a guy whose transplanted failed. According to the report 10% of transplant patients continue to go bald. A small percentage, yes, but still it would be interesting to find out why this happens:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2552344/A-failed-hair-transplant-left-disfigured-scars-I-colour-pencil-Man-regrets-paying-cosmetic-treatment.html

look up joe rogan

bananasinpajamas wrote:no. transplant patients are prescribed propecia to keep their existing non transplant hair.

i dont know about the guy in the documentary, he might have had some issues. but in general transplanted hair stays with no need for maintenance

10% continue to go bald, non transplanted hair--yes as to be expected but the transplanted hair remains.

Xenon wrote:

bananasinpajamas wrote:still the question remains. and its a big one.

transplanted hair into the top and front, areas with supposed blood flow problems, stay healthy and strong

I've read that transplant patients are prescribed propecia to prevent these hairs from gradually suffering the same fate, so who knows what would happen if the patient stopped taking propecia? I also came across a guy on some documentary who said that he had five hair transplants, but the transplanted hair shedded and now he is left with scars at the nape of his neck. But then we also read about the head-hair-transplanted-into-the-forearm experiment and how it continued to shrink.

It's a hall of smoke and mirrors for sure.

BTW here is a daily mail report about a guy whose transplanted failed. According to the report 10% of transplant patients continue to go bald. A small percentage, yes, but still it would be interesting to find out why this happens:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2552344/A-failed-hair-transplant-left-disfigured-scars-I-colour-pencil-Man-regrets-paying-cosmetic-treatment.html

Almost every transplant I've seen has gone wrong over time, but fine at the beginning... Give me some legit stats and I'll believe that number.

Note: Please take into consideration that most HT surgeons prescribe either Fin/Minox (or both) or laser therapy+Minox and Fin which obviously makes it unlikely for the patient to loose those transplanted hairs until years and years after the HT surgery. Also, I'm pretty sure those numbers (5-15% failure rate) are based on the certain transplant that go wrong from the get... Not over time. Most of the time, those failed transplants can be due to the surgeons negligence.

Another thing, I MAY be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the surgical process also helps with creating new vascularity, as well as the "reconnection" of the vascularity.