Detumesance Therapy And Scalp Ridge

It's been a long time since I posted here - for the most part I don't really need to anymore - but I wanted to update people. I've been using Margo's towel method for a long time now - and it's nice to look back at photos of me three years ago and see I have more hair now.

Whilst I've managed to move my hairline forward - the diffuse thinning is improving a lot slower. If it didn't get any better I wouldn't care, but if I can improve it - I will.

For me - I'm not looking for the 'solution' to hairloss anymore - it's primarily good health and manual methods. I'm not going repost all of my discoveries or
comments that I posted over the years - the search function is there for that - no point clogging up the forum. There has been a lot of evidence for manual methods over the years - and that combined with the fact that minoxidil decreases blood pressure by making capillaries more leaky (increasing local tissue diffusion) was more than enough proof for me that regenerating the capillary network was the key to growing hair.

I recently read the Hong Kong paper on detumesance. Overall, I reckon it fits in with brushing and margo towel method.

However, one part is unique - the change in scalp shape. If this is true then it will not be actual skull shape changes, but the breaking down of scar tissue that has resulted from extended lymphodema.

I have a ridge or bump running down my scalp - roughly where a mohican haircut would be. According to the paper - this is a key factor in baldness - and recovery, with the 'dome' diminishing.

So far, I've been able to encourage some rapid regrowth by intensively massaging this area. in about 20 minutes I can usually flatten part of the ridge - although how much it rebounds over the rest of the day I can't say.

Right now it feels like I've reduced the ridge at the front of my scalp by quite a bit - but I'm still making inroads into the largest amount of swelling. This area is also where my diffuse thinning is recovering the most slowly.

It should be noted that the area in which I've managed to flatten the ridge, at the front of my scalp is seeing the fastest regrowth of all.

For anyone having success with detumesance therapy - have you felt the cone ridge that the paper speaks of. Supposedly it gets larger as hairloss gets worse, and reduces as regrowth occurs?

Have you managed to reduce it through massage? And, like me, do those areas correlate with the most regrowth.

(Note: DHT dramatically increases drainage in hypoxic tissue - in mpb perhaps this malfunctions and results in lymphodema and that goes hand in hand with reduced capilary network. It's proven that without strong capillary loops papillia become dormant.)

I noticed similiar things to you however I would advise caution on interfering with the ridges too much. I believe that the ridges are essentially skull deformation, the sagital ridge fusing too early causes the skull to expand along the hairline and a mohican ridge. As I understand The sutures of the skull are fused by a fibrous tissue. The adult skull sutures can fully fuse and close as late as the mid thirties. Not sure its a good idea massaging too heavily a fibrous tissue that is fusing the skull together.
Essentally a mild form of scaphocephaly.

I have only been trying det therapy for a little over a month with less than 20 minutes a day. I also have a pretty pronounced ridge in the middle back part of my head. This is also where my scalp is tightest. My temples are definitely loosening but the middle back of my scalp remains right.

I am not sure if I have flattened it at all through massage. I'm not even sure if that's possible. But I do believe the ridge may have something to do with my hair loss and that this therapy my alleviate the tension caused by it.

gbp2000 wrote:It's been a long time since I posted here - for the most part I don't really need to anymore - but I wanted to update people. I've been using Margo's towel method for a long time now - and it's nice to look back at photos of me three years ago and see I have more hair now.

Whilst I've managed to move my hairline forward -  the diffuse thinning is improving a lot slower. If it didn't get any better I wouldn't care, but if I can improve it - I will.

For me - I'm not looking for the 'solution' to hairloss anymore - it's primarily good health and manual methods. I'm not going repost all of my discoveries or
comments that I posted over the years - the search function is there for that - no point clogging up the forum. There has been a lot of evidence for manual methods over the years - and that combined with the fact that minoxidil decreases blood pressure by making capillaries more leaky (increasing local tissue diffusion) was more than enough proof for me that regenerating the capillary network was the key to growing hair.

I recently read the Hong Kong paper on detumesance. Overall, I reckon it fits in with brushing and margo towel method.

However, one part is unique - the change in scalp shape. If this is true then it will not be actual skull shape changes, but the breaking down of scar tissue that has resulted from extended lymphodema.

I have a ridge or bump running down my scalp - roughly where a mohican haircut would be. According to the paper - this is a key factor in baldness - and recovery, with the 'dome' diminishing.

So far, I've been able to encourage some rapid regrowth by intensively massaging this area. in about 20 minutes I can usually flatten part of the ridge - although how much it rebounds over the rest of the day I can't say.

Right now it feels like I've reduced the ridge at the front of my scalp by quite a bit - but I'm still making inroads into the largest amount of swelling. This area is also where my diffuse thinning is recovering the most slowly.

It should be noted that the area in which I've managed to flatten the ridge, at the front of my scalp is seeing the fastest regrowth of all.

For anyone having success with detumesance therapy - have you felt the cone ridge that the paper speaks of. Supposedly it gets larger as hairloss gets worse, and reduces as regrowth occurs?

Have you managed to reduce it through massage? And, like me, do those areas correlate with the most regrowth.

(Note: DHT dramatically increases drainage in hypoxic tissue - in mpb perhaps this malfunctions and results in lymphodema and that goes hand in hand with reduced capilary network. It's proven that without strong capillary loops papillia become dormant.)

Hey GBP2000, Great to see you commenting again - FWIW, some of your posts regarding PP / Margo really helped me. Started Margo roughly 9 months ago and DT about 6 months ago and seeing more and more hairs popping up.

I agree, DT is probably similar to Margo in a lot of ways (increasing blood / lymph flow), but it also has the added benefit of breaking up hard tissue a lot quicker than towel scrubs.

I even went all old school recently and bought a bottle of colloidal silver in memory of Prague :-)

I would imagine that this is what you're talking about...

Alfred Hitchcock on the set of The Birds.

In every extreme case of MPB, they always seems to have that ridge in the middle. To be honest, this whole theory is the one that makes most sense to me.

Looking this up I came across the term 'sagittal keel' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittal_keel). Wikipedia mentions Patrick Stewart and some kung-fu guy as prominent examples. So yeah, baldies.

I think I have it too. Ape-heads unite!

In fact it feels freaky sometimes when I go too hard massaging down the middle, so maybe I should go easier.

Makes me feel inferior. It's like we're lesser evolved and we don't need larger brains, haha!

Thanks for all the replies people! Really helpful.

I think those photos describe exactly what I'm seeing.

Thing is - I don't agree that this is tissue suturing bone, nor actually bone as in a  Sagittal keel. I shouldn't be able to flatten out the keel in 10 minutes of pressing at the front.
I'm slowly working my way in and flattening in this section deeper in. My hope is that within six months I will have removed this.

The Hong Kong study shows the ' Sagittal keel' being reduced by the detumesance therapy over a ten month period.

The fact that this reduction parallels the hair regrowth suggest, but not proves a connection. Suggests to me that the ridge develops as balding occurs.
In other words - hypoxia leads to DHT increase - increased lymph drainage fails due to inadequate drainage paths - causes lymphodema -> scarred lymphodemic tissue ( 'Sagittal keel').
This inhibits regrowth of capillary network preventing capillary loop development and papilla growth.

Deep tissue massage is known to remove this scarred tissue caused by lymphodema - you can look this up on the web - so that's proven.

I've got good evidence for the Margo method via Minoxidil increasing local tissue diffusion of blood - increasing capillary loop development. Detumesance therapy as shown by Hong Kong University would aid manual capiliary loop establishment, and is also noted to reduce the 'cone' shape of a head.

We have proof that deep tissue massage can break down scar tissue caused by lymphodema of the the limbs.

I don't think it's a reach to suggest that the Hong Kong study is showing the breakdown of lymphodema tissue damaged by hypoxia.

Assuming you believe the HK study to be real - I think this is the only logical conclusion of what the 'ridge' really is - lymphodema affected tissue.

gbp2000 wrote:Thanks for all the replies people! Really helpful.

I think those photos describe exactly what I'm seeing.

Thing is - I don't agree that this is tissue suturing bone, nor actually bone as in a  Sagittal keel. I shouldn't be able to flatten out the keel in 10 minutes of pressing at the front.
I'm slowly working my way in and flattening in this section deeper in. My hope is that within six months I will have removed this.

The Hong Kong study shows the ' Sagittal keel' being reduced by the detumesance therapy over a ten month period.

The fact that this reduction parallels the hair regrowth suggest, but not proves a connection. Suggests to me that the ridge develops as balding occurs.
In other words - hypoxia leads to DHT increase - increased lymph drainage fails due to inadequate drainage paths - causes lymphodema -> scarred lymphodemic tissue ( 'Sagittal keel').
This inhibits regrowth of capillary network preventing capillary loop development and papilla growth.

Deep tissue massage is known to remove this scarred tissue caused by lymphodema - you can look this up on the web - so that's proven.

I've got good evidence for the Margo method via Minoxidil increasing local tissue diffusion of blood - increasing capillary loop development. Detumesance therapy as shown by Hong Kong University would aid manual capiliary loop establishment, and is also noted to reduce the 'cone' shape of a head.

We have proof that deep tissue massage can break down scar tissue caused by lymphodema of the the limbs.

I don't think it's a reach to suggest that the Hong Kong study is showing the breakdown of lymphodema tissue damaged by hypoxia.

Assuming you believe the HK study to be real - I think this is the only logical conclusion of what the 'ridge' really is - lymphodema affected tissue.

i always remember the company saying they had no idea how rogaine or minoxidil worked. they said it was some unknown thing that happens on your head that regrows hair. the more i think about it, they know. but you can't come out and say hey your hair is regrowing because you're restoring blood flow. we'd be able to fix ourselves with a little research if we knew that. well cocksuckers, now we know.

Headstands.
They should be paramount in reshaping/flattening the sagittal keel, especially when done on a hard wood floor. What do you think?

gbp2000, you pinch and press the ridge actually as the detu therapy says?

There is no doubt that increased fenestrations (increasing leakiness of capillaries) reduces blood pressure. This is precisely the way that Minoxidil lowers blood pressure: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10233226

Apart from genetics and nutrition - the biggest thing that affects hair thickness is the size of the sheath of the papilla. In other words, the number of cells on the end.This is DIRECTLY determined by the presence of a capiliary loop feeding the Papilla. Without a loop - the hair is vellus. The more blood delivered to the area, the stronger the loop and the thicker the papilla = thicker hair.

All the above are verifiable facts - I've posted numerous papers backing up each assertion in the past. We have strong anecdotal evidence that manual methods can cause at least some hair growth - and good evidence that they can cause substantial regrowth.Let's assume though - that only the odd random hair will occur from manual methods.

What causes the random hair to grow? I don't think it's a leap to suggest that it was due to capillary loop developing for that hair. The only real way to explain that is to say that it was due to increased blood flow - even if you don't accept that as a sound method to regrow hair en mass.

Which strongly suggests that increasing blood flow will cause the capillary loop to develop regardless of if the hair 'demands' the resources as is normal for hair growth. In other words the mechanism goes both ways - hair growth demands blood flow to generate the cells for the papilla. Also, increased bloodflow will cause the same mechanism to activate.

At this point - I find it hard to believe that this isn't the primary method of action of minoxidil. Take away the increased blood diffused in the tissue and the capiliary loops collapse - causing a massive shed - precisely because fenestration not capillary growth was the cause of the increased blood flow.

The lymphodema angle is still more theoretical - but if as I'm observing the ridge can be reduced through deep massage, then this is identical to the treatment used for lymphodema massage treatment. Again this is proven and can be referenced.

A lack of capillaries might also create a low oxygen environment - encouraging DHT to be increased to compensate for the hypoxia. DHT is known to drive lymphatic drainage harder than in normal tissue.

So why the lymph fluid clogged tissue if DHT accelerates the flow of lymph fluid? I'm wondering if it pushes too hard and causes a backlog of fluid that can't escape the top of the scalp fast enough and pools. This is pure speculation right now.

I'll keep on massaging.

Fibrosis is a key inhibitor of lymphatic regeneration.

Avraham T1, Clavin NW, Daluvoy SV, Fernandez J, Soares MA, Cordeiro AP, Mehrara BJ.



Author information



Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Lymphedema is a common debilitating sequela of lymph node dissection. Although numerous clinical studies suggest that factors that lead to fibrosis are associated with the development of lymphedema, this relationship has not been proven. The purpose of these experiments was therefore to evaluate lymphatic regeneration in the setting of variable soft-tissue fibrosis.

METHODS:

A section of mouse tail skin including the capillary and collecting lymphatics was excised. Experimental animals (n = 20) were treated with topical collagen type I gel and a moist dressing, whereas control animals (n = 20) underwent excision followed by moist dressing alone. Fibrosis, acute lymphedema, lymphatic function, gene expression, lymphatic endothelial cell proliferation, and lymphatic fibrosis were evaluated at various time points.

RESULTS:

Collagen gel treatment significantly decreased fibrosis, with an attendant decrease in acute lymphedema and improved lymphatic function. Tails treated with collagen gel demonstrated greater numbers of lymphatic vessels, more normal lymphatic architecture, and more proliferating lymphatic endothelial cells. These findings appeared to be independent of vascular endothelial growth factor C expression. Decreased fibrosis was associated with a significant decrease in the expression of extracellular matrix components. Finally, decreased soft-tissue fibrosis was associated with a significant decrease in lymphatic fibrosis as evidenced by the number of lymphatic endothelial cells that coexpressed lymphatic and fibroblast markers.

CONCLUSIONS:

Soft-tissue fibrosis is associated with impairment in lymphatic regeneration and lymphatic function. These defects occur as a consequence of impaired lymphatic endothelial cell proliferation, abnormal lymphatic microarchitecture, and lymphatic fibrosis. Inhibition of fibrosis using a simple topical dressing can markedly accelerate lymphatic repair and promote regeneration of normal capillary lymphatics.


PMID: 19644258  [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Last two posts were great reads guys, iv got to say things are looking promising for manuals right now.

Despecio, very interesting article - has anyone here tried topical collagen gel? Could be a powerful combination, if coupled with a manual routine (detumescence / margo / towelling / maliniak / dermarolling etc).

What do you guys think?

gbp2000 wrote:There is no doubt that increased fenestrations (increasing leakiness of capillaries) reduces blood pressure. This is precisely the way that Minoxidil lowers blood pressure: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10233226

Apart from genetics and nutrition - the biggest thing that affects hair thickness is the size of the sheath of the papilla. In other words, the number of cells on the end.This is DIRECTLY determined by the presence of a capiliary loop feeding the Papilla. Without a loop - the hair is vellus. The more blood delivered to the area, the stronger the loop and the thicker the papilla = thicker hair.

All the above are verifiable facts - I've posted numerous papers backing up each assertion in the past. We have strong anecdotal evidence that manual methods can cause at least some hair growth - and good evidence that they can cause substantial regrowth.Let's assume though - that only the odd random hair will occur from manual methods.

What causes the random hair to grow? I don't think it's a leap to suggest that it was due to capillary loop developing for that hair. The only real way to explain that is to say that it was due to increased blood flow - even if you don't accept that as a sound method to regrow hair en mass.

Which strongly suggests that increasing blood flow will cause the capillary loop to develop regardless of if the hair 'demands' the resources as is normal for hair growth. In other words the mechanism goes both ways - hair growth demands blood flow to generate the cells for the papilla. Also, increased bloodflow will cause the same mechanism to activate.

At this point - I find it hard to believe that this isn't the primary method of action of minoxidil. Take away the increased blood diffused in the tissue and the capiliary loops collapse - causing a massive shed - precisely because fenestration not capillary growth was the cause of the increased blood flow.

The lymphodema angle is still more theoretical - but if as I'm observing the ridge can be reduced through deep massage, then this is identical to the treatment used for lymphodema massage treatment. Again this is proven and can be referenced.

A lack of capillaries might also create a low oxygen environment - encouraging DHT to be increased to compensate for the hypoxia. DHT is known to drive lymphatic drainage harder than in normal tissue.

So why the lymph fluid clogged tissue if DHT accelerates the flow of lymph fluid? I'm wondering if it pushes too hard and causes a backlog of fluid that can't escape the top of the scalp fast enough and pools. This is pure speculation right now.

I'll keep on massaging.

This is an awesome post man.... Makes a whole lot of sense to me.

ive thought about this for a while but dont know how to implement--if blood flow really is the last link in the chain leading to hair loss a viable treatment would be warm heat IMO like a heating pad to bring blood to the area.

the problem is using a heating pad with hair in the way and also the round shape of the head. i tried the heating pad shaped for hair, but its made for heating the hair (to be used with hot oil treatments to treat the hair shaft) and not the scalp

http://www.amazon.com/Thermal-Spa-Electric-Heat-Cap/dp/B002RPJBIS

any ideas?

bananasinpajamas wrote:ive thought about this for a while but dont know how to implement--if blood flow really is the last link in the chain leading to hair loss a viable treatment would be warm heat IMO like a heating pad to bring blood to the area.

the problem is using a heating pad with hair in the way and also the round shape of the head. i tried the heating pad shaped for hair, but its made for heating the hair (to be used with hot oil treatments to treat the hair shaft) and not the scalp

http://www.amazon.com/Thermal-Spa-Electric-Heat-Cap/dp/B002RPJBIS

any ideas?

sounds like a bad idea to me. my uneducated guess would be it promotes more hair loss.
rather use a vibrating massage device on your scalp.

BelieveInIt wrote:

bananasinpajamas wrote:ive thought about this for a while but dont know how to implement--if blood flow really is the last link in the chain leading to hair loss a viable treatment would be warm heat IMO like a heating pad to bring blood to the area.

the problem is using a heating pad with hair in the way and also the round shape of the head. i tried the heating pad shaped for hair, but its made for heating the hair (to be used with hot oil treatments to treat the hair shaft) and not the scalp

http://www.amazon.com/Thermal-Spa-Electric-Heat-Cap/dp/B002RPJBIS

any ideas?

sounds like a bad idea to me. my uneducated guess would be it promotes more hair loss.
rather use a vibrating massage device on your scalp.

Violet Ray or LLLT.... No heat. Just my 2c

why not heat from something like a heating pad? its been proven to increase blood flow to an area.

bananasinpajamas wrote:why not heat from something like a heating pad? its been proven to increase blood flow to an area.

'Cause you'll burn your scalp off?

bananasinpajamas wrote:why not heat from something like a heating pad? its been proven to increase blood flow to an area.

VR is known to not only bring fresh oxygenated blood flow to the area, it also kills pathogens and has several other functions as well.

LLLT has many other functions as well besides increasing blood flow.

They are both supposed to help combat fibrosis as well.

I guess it's really just up to personal preference man... Idk.

I'd caution anyone thinking that the HK study actually changed scalp shape. That's just a computer graphic, and the photos don't show anything except that a bald head looks more dome-like than one with hair.

The idea that bald people have extra ridges, etc based on photos is the epitomy of correlation/causation. Look at a photo of Matt Damon in "Elysium" his head is shaved and he looks pretty dome like to me - but he's got a full head of hair.

I have seen massage loosen up my scalp for sure, but not for a second am I going to think that by flattening my head I'll grow more hair. Come on guys...

JDawg wrote:I'd caution anyone thinking that the HK study actually changed scalp shape.  That's just a computer graphic, and the photos don't show anything except that a bald head looks more dome-like than one with hair.

The idea that bald people have extra ridges, etc based on photos is the epitomy of correlation/causation.  Look at a photo of Matt Damon in "Elysium"  his head is shaved and he looks pretty dome like to me - but he's got a full head of hair.

I have seen massage loosen up my scalp for sure, but not for a second am I going to think that by flattening my head I'll grow more hair. Come on guys...

I have to agree... The whole "head shape" thing is totally ridiculous when people think it's actually the "skull bone expanding" I can see how something SIMILAR CAN happen to some people due to the scalp metabolism turning to crap, or fibrosis, but actual "skull bone expansion"? No way. I don't even think Tom Haggerty suggested this when he shared his theory with the public... I wish I can find out how this ridiculous theory was created and brought to some peoples attention.

when u understand the way every cell in the skeleton is replaced in a cycle of cell turnover via osteoclasts and osteoblasts, several times in a lifetime, u will see how it is possible for the skull to change shape over many years even when sutures that are joined in puberty remain joined. the ridges this guy talks about i do believe exist and can form in adulthood.

whether or not this is a cause of mpb, i have no idea. ive never seen the evidence, and as u know im a sucker for evidence. theres also bone spurs and growths that can occur after injury. (bone heals unevenly) so theres that too.

its likely that as someone suggested these are just correlated, not causal. If DT can change bone shape, it would have to be over several years, and really there would have to be constant pressure to guide osteoblasts as to where to put the new osteocytes.

If DT just changes the shape of the fibrosis though, then thats different to actually changing the shape of the skull.

be interesting to get the opinion of a head surgeon or pathologist who actually cuts up these layers and sees first hand the differences. ive only stood at the table of a cadaver dissection once. and they didnt cut up the head. although they did have a bucket of brains to show us!

rofl wrote:when u understand the way every cell in the skeleton is replaced in a cycle of cell turnover via osteoclasts and osteoblasts, several times in a lifetime, u will see how it is possible for the skull to change shape over many years even when sutures that are joined in puberty remain joined.  the ridges this guy talks about i do believe exist and can form in adulthood.

whether or not this is a cause of mpb, i have no idea.  ive never seen the evidence, and as u know im a sucker for evidence.  theres also bone spurs and growths that can occur after injury.  (bone heals unevenly) so theres that too.

its likely that as someone suggested these are just correlated, not causal. If DT can change bone shape, it would have to be over several years, and really there would have to be constant pressure to guide osteoblasts as to where to put the new osteocytes.

If DT just changes the shape of the  fibrosis though, then thats different to actually changing the shape of the skull.

be interesting to get the opinion of a head surgeon or pathologist who actually cuts up these layers and sees first hand the differences.  ive only stood at the table of a cadaver dissection once. and they didnt cut up the head.  although they did have a bucket of brains to show us!

These "ridges" people talk about are usually very easy to flatten out, in a short amount of time. This is why I'm suggesting that the whole concept behind this skull expansion theory is BS (in my opinion) I'm not saying it isn't possible for the skull to grow after puberty, because it is. However, people actually thinking the skull bones can grow as a result of MPB? And then they're actually able to flatten this sort of "mutant skull bone growth" back into it's neutral position? Don't really think so...

Btw, I don't even think sutures permanently fuse at age 30 or whatever.... I personally think sutures only fuse due to over calcification when you're old.