OT: Neurogen model of depression- Brain atrophy- how to reverse it?

In contrast to the monoamine theory of depression, the neurogenic model described in the following paragraph talks about long term brain morphology... which includes nerve cell death and dendritic atrophy in the hippocampus, as well as atrophy of the amygdala. CS or others: Is there a way to reverse this permanent "damage"?

The neurogenic model interprets depression, at least in its more severe forms, as a neurodegenerative disorder. Chronic uncontrolled stress causes oversecretion of gluocorticoid hormones, notably cortisol. Cortisol activates the glucocorticoid receptors that regulate metabolism, inflammation and immunity. An excess of glucocorticoid hormones reduces the rate of new brain cell-proliferation in the hippocampus. The hippocampus has the highest density of receptors for glucocorticoids in the brain. Stress-induced activation of the glucocorticoid receptors causes nerve cell death and dendritic atrophy in the hippocampus; by contrast, there is synaptic growth in the basolateral amygdala. The amygdala stores memories of emotional experiences - frequently fearful and unpleasant memories. Eventually, however, prolonged stress tends to atrophy the amygdala too. These long-term changes in brain morphology lower mood. They may result in anhedonia and depression in the genetically vulnerable. Antidepressants either diminish, prevent or (ideally) reverse stress-induced neural damage and impaired structural plasticity. How do they really work? Despite an explosive growth in neurobabble, no one knows.

Anti-depressants (in general) destroy the brain.

The best way to repair it is using Magnesium L-Threonate.

Honestly, if you have a major issue, besides Magnesium L-Threonate that CS mentioned one of the best treatments may be rtms/tms aka PEMF... which all those devices are really just variations of Rife machines but with the rtms/tms is designed to be used on the brain.

I try not to be so repetitive as I know it's annoying but if there is one available in your area, IMO, it's something to try.

Here is one link. This link talks more about addiction but same info is applied on depression. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3tPuB31CYc

Nice stuff rdkml, thanks!

Very interesting.

I can only imagine the amount of damage I have done to my brain with all of the psych meds I have been on. I have been off of tem for almost a year and I feel that very slowly I am making progress and "seeing some light" so to speak, with some days pretty bad still.

The magnesium L-threonate is intriguing. I would probably buy some if I had not just bought some mag chloride.

Not sure where mercury applies to the first post, but it is certantly a factor in many health issues and would probably impair most if not any treatment attempted considering one is mercury toxic.

Jdp,

Thank you for your input as always. No worries about repetition; I wish I could afford a device. It is something I will pursue in the future most likely. Do you know specific frequencies or depression and/or to regenerate the brain? Don't need to tell me specifically what they are; I'm just curious.

CS,

Thank you as well. I have been taking the Mg-l-threonate per your suggestion. I've been taking 3 a day before bed because it causes drowsiness and helps me sleep. Is that ok, or is it better to spread them out?

Can the Mg repair the damage if I am still on the MAOI? I haven't been able to manage without it unfortunately- though I've tried. I have an article on my MAOI somewhere that concludes that it may work by regulating the HPA axis. This may explain why it works so well compared to other drugs, as we know I have impaired adrenal function.

I know AD's are damaging, but that article sites prolonged stress as the causative factor (presumably in childhood). That makes sense in my case. The notion of brain damage is scary because one could conclude that one would need drugs indefinitely. The Mg gives me some hope. Do you have any studies on it as it relates to this topic?

I have suspected that adrenal fatigue plays a role in 90% of depression and anxiety cases. Ironically the treatment with glucocortcoids for extreme hypoadrenia is the same thing that caused the situation to begin with- excessive glucocorticoids. It seems that this theory of depression points to the missing link when it comes to recovery, as adrenal function will continue to be compromised until/unless the brain damage is reversed.

What MAOI are you on? I was thinking that the mag L Threonate might be good in combination with Sensoril. Now that you mention MAOI I remember the deprenyl which I bought for neuro protection, something else that may make a good combo with the magnesium. I thought of the Sensoril because it acts similarly to the deprenyl in terms of neuro protection through increasing the bodies natural antioxidants, although it is much safer than the deprenyl from what I gather. Anyways, was thinking of long term therapy and protection.

Your welcome CS. This was on TV several months ago using rtms/tms on someone with Asperger's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV4MT9ZKoKU


Someone at another forum posted this info. It's another forum one would have to sign up for but I'm sure they won't mind if I copy and paste.

Anyway, it was all about the new field of TMS (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation) or rTMS (repetitive TMS); it was showing the most benefit for depression, though research was also being done using it for Parkinsons, MS, learning disorders, etc.

I believe it was in this particular article that they explained that it had been numerous -and persistent- anecdotal reports of spontaneous resolution of depression in patients undergoing an MRI for something else, that started researchers on this track in the 80's.

I worked in 2006 as a psych nurse, and I brought the article to show the docs. We zapped them with ECT (electro-convulsive therapy), if their depression was "refractory" (not responding). But ect is a horrible thing to do to a brain! The article specifically compared rTMS to ECT in a favorable way (more and better responses, with no side effects like memory loss, headaches, confusion). So of course the docs all lost interest...

They're using it more in Europe, where Big Pharma doesn't have such a stranglehold, I guess. I googled rTMS and found a pretty good site: http://www.earthpulse.net/TMS.htm

Eureka! Here is the article (complete nd printable, with pictures!):

http://spectrum.ieee.org/print/3050

bh2o wrote:What MAOI are you on? I was thinking that the mag L Threonate might be good in combination with Sensoril. Now that you mention MAOI I remember the deprenyl which I bought for neuro protection, something else that may make a good combo with the magnesium. I thought of the Sensoril because it acts similarly to the deprenyl in terms of neuro protection through increasing the bodies natural antioxidants, although it is much safer than the deprenyl from what I gather. Anyways, was thinking of long term therapy and protection.

I'm on nardil as it is considered very good for those with anxiety (specifically social) because it works on GABA. It is a dual MAOI (a and b), whereas deprenyl is primarily a b in lower doses, but works on both in high doses- if I remember correctly. Deprenyl is considered a smart drug because it does have benefits as you mention. It works primarily on dopamine so it is more stimulating compared to traditional MAOI's which target all monoamines. I simply don't respond nearly as well to standard meds (eg. ssri's). Nardil I can actually feel working from the get go, and there isn't this 6 week period before you notice something like most drugs. I have heard it said (and I agree) that a drug that works should be felt in the first week. Sometimes people are encouraged to "push through" nasty side-effects and bad reactions. Any substance I have ever taken that works, works fairly immediately (ghb for example). GHB while illegal in the US has health benefits with a large window to treat depression and anxiety, as it is euphoric. There is abuse potential and it isn't perfect though.

Sensoril works as an adaptogen for cortisol (brings it into balance if high or low). When adrenal fatigue is severe like mine though and the adrenals aren't making enough cortisol, it isn't enough. I know it has other antioxidant properties like you mention.

Now that I think about it, I have always read that once dendrites shrink it is permanent. Thank god that jdp and CS are suggesting that isn't the case, because that is a bleak and depressing notion.

When speaking of "neuroprotection" I wonder if that is one in the same as neuro-regeneration, or if it only means that it prevents further damage?

Jdp,

You are awesome man- thank you! You contribute so much to this forum. I can't wait to read your links! That is fascinating about MRI's and your personal experience with ect. At my lowest point when I was afraid I would hurt or kill myself, I was desperate enough to entertain the possibility of ect. Now that I'm back on the MAOI, I can't believe I would even consider it. It goes to show how crippling severe depression can be. It's like being in a state of pure existential terror that won't relent. It's hellish, and impossible to describe to those with mild or even moderate depression- let alone non-depressed people. Your whole reality becomes a living nightmare.

I'll ask you what I asked CS: Can one repair the brain while still taking medication? I simply cannot live without it at this point. I can't even imagine being able to push through without it, if that is what it takes.

rdkml wrote:Your welcome CS. This was on TV several months ago using rtms/tms on someone with Asperger's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV4MT9ZKoKU


Someone at another forum posted this info. It's another forum one would have to sign up for but I'm sure they won't mind if I copy and paste.

Anyway, it was all about the new field of TMS (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation) or rTMS (repetitive TMS); it was showing the most benefit for depression, though research was also being done using it for Parkinsons, MS, learning disorders, etc.

I believe it was in this particular article that they explained that it had been numerous -and persistent- anecdotal reports of spontaneous resolution of depression in patients undergoing an MRI for something else, that started researchers on this track in the 80's.

I worked in 2006 as a psych nurse, and I brought the article to show the docs. We zapped them with ECT (electro-convulsive therapy), if their depression was "refractory" (not responding). But ect is a horrible thing to do to a brain! The article specifically compared rTMS to ECT in a favorable way (more and better responses, with no side effects like memory loss, headaches, confusion). So of course the docs all lost interest...

They're using it more in Europe, where Big Pharma doesn't have such a stranglehold, I guess. I googled rTMS and found a pretty good site: http://www.earthpulse.net/TMS.htm

Eureka! Here is the article (complete nd printable, with pictures!):

http://spectrum.ieee.org/print/3050

Paradox wrote:

bh2o wrote:What MAOI are you on? I was thinking that the mag L Threonate might be good in combination with Sensoril. Now that you mention MAOI I remember the deprenyl which I bought for neuro protection, something else that may make a good combo with the magnesium. I thought of the Sensoril because it acts similarly to the deprenyl in terms of neuro protection through increasing the bodies natural antioxidants, although it is much safer than the deprenyl from what I gather. Anyways, was thinking of long term therapy and protection.

I'm on nardil as it is considered very good for those with anxiety (specifically social) because it works on GABA. It is a dual MAOI (a and b), whereas deprenyl is primarily a b in lower doses, but works on both in high doses- if I remember correctly. Deprenyl is considered a smart drug because it does have benefits as you mention. It works primarily on dopamine so it is more stimulating compared to traditional MAOI's which target all monoamines. I simply don't respond nearly as well to standard meds (eg. ssri's). Nardil I can actually feel working from the get go, and there isn't this 6 week period before you notice something like most drugs. I have heard it said (and I agree) that a drug that works should be felt in the first week. Sometimes people are encouraged to "push through" nasty side-effects and bad reactions. Any substance I have ever taken that works, works fairly immediately (ghb for example). GHB while illegal in the US has health benefits with a large window to treat depression and anxiety, as it is euphoric. There is abuse potential and it isn't perfect though.

Sensoril works as an adaptogen for cortisol (brings it into balance if high or low). When adrenal fatigue is severe like mine though and the adrenals aren't making enough cortisol, it isn't enough. I know it has other antioxidant properties like you mention.

Now that I think about it, I have always read that once dendrites shrink it is permanent. Thank god that jdp and CS are suggesting that isn't the case, because that is a bleak and depressing notion.

When speaking of "neuroprotection" I wonder if that is one in the same as neuro-regeneration, or if it only means that it prevents further damage?

I would say that it only prevents further damage. My thinking was adding it in with that magnesium and pehaps they would be a nice 1-2 punch of protection and regeneration.

The most I have taken of deprynyl is 5mg. I have the the citrate, which I would take sublingually. At 5mg I definitely felt it work on my dopamine levels as my tinnitus hit a high that I had not encountered since I was on high dose bupropion. It honestly scared me, that I won't go that high again. Some take it at doses of 20mg to deat depression. I think it's effects are irreversable at that high a dosage when it goes A+B. My intention was a low daily dose for it's neuropprotection benefits, with other antioxidants, selenium, NAC, and vitamin e to protect from too much SOD becoming a problem. Anyways, I don't take it anymore, but it is an intriguing drug/as is emsam which is the patch version of it.

I posted an article on here before from Ray Peat that discusses serotonin, MAOI's, and LSD among other things--very interesting. I can post it here for you is you like. MAOS are actually safer than the newer AD's aside from the dietary restrictions, but that can be easily avoided. Dep citrate sublingually and the emsam version help avoid dietary concerns of course. These are things that I'm sure you know.

I'm also interested in what CS and/or rdk have to say about regeneration while taking meds. It is an endeavor that I might have to take at some point I think.

Paradox - Yes, three at a time is just fine. Also Mg-LT is the most effective internal method to repair the brain that is known. I suppose as a treatment it would be something like PEMF.

Also I meant to tell you about something before. You might be able to drop the MAO inhibitor by taking
AFA (Aphanizomenon flos-aquae). It requires a dose of 4 grams (that's 8 of these tablets). Personally I love this
stuff.

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Blue-Green-Algae-120-Tablets/679?at=hil335

More info on it here:

http://breathing.com/pdf/Depression-mood-add.pdf

bh2o wrote:

Paradox wrote:

bh2o wrote:What MAOI are you on? I was thinking that the mag L Threonate might be good in combination with Sensoril. Now that you mention MAOI I remember the deprenyl which I bought for neuro protection, something else that may make a good combo with the magnesium. I thought of the Sensoril because it acts similarly to the deprenyl in terms of neuro protection through increasing the bodies natural antioxidants, although it is much safer than the deprenyl from what I gather. Anyways, was thinking of long term therapy and protection.

I'm on nardil as it is considered very good for those with anxiety (specifically social) because it works on GABA. It is a dual MAOI (a and b), whereas deprenyl is primarily a b in lower doses, but works on both in high doses- if I remember correctly. Deprenyl is considered a smart drug because it does have benefits as you mention. It works primarily on dopamine so it is more stimulating compared to traditional MAOI's which target all monoamines. I simply don't respond nearly as well to standard meds (eg. ssri's). Nardil I can actually feel working from the get go, and there isn't this 6 week period before you notice something like most drugs. I have heard it said (and I agree) that a drug that works should be felt in the first week. Sometimes people are encouraged to "push through" nasty side-effects and bad reactions. Any substance I have ever taken that works, works fairly immediately (ghb for example). GHB while illegal in the US has health benefits with a large window to treat depression and anxiety, as it is euphoric. There is abuse potential and it isn't perfect though.

Sensoril works as an adaptogen for cortisol (brings it into balance if high or low). When adrenal fatigue is severe like mine though and the adrenals aren't making enough cortisol, it isn't enough. I know it has other antioxidant properties like you mention.

Now that I think about it, I have always read that once dendrites shrink it is permanent. Thank god that jdp and CS are suggesting that isn't the case, because that is a bleak and depressing notion.

When speaking of "neuroprotection" I wonder if that is one in the same as neuro-regeneration, or if it only means that it prevents further damage?

I would say that it only prevents further damage. My thinking was adding it in with that magnesium and pehaps they would be a nice 1-2 punch of protection and regeneration.

The most I have taken of deprynyl is 5mg. I have the the citrate, which I would take sublingually. At 5mg I definitely felt it work on my dopamine levels as my tinnitus hit a high that I had not encountered since I was on high dose bupropion. It honestly scared me, that I won't go that high again. Some take it at doses of 20mg to deat depression. I think it's effects are irreversable at that high a dosage when it goes A+B. My intention was a low daily dose for it's neuropprotection benefits, with other antioxidants, selenium, NAC, and vitamin e to protect from too much SOD becoming a problem. Anyways, I don't take it anymore, but it is an intriguing drug/as is emsam which is the patch version of it.

I posted an article on here before from Ray Peat that discusses serotonin, MAOI's, and LSD among other things--very interesting. I can post it here for you is you like. MAOS are actually safer than the newer AD's aside from the dietary restrictions, but that can be easily avoided. Dep citrate sublingually and the emsam version help avoid dietary concerns of course. These are things that I'm sure you know.

I'm also interested in what CS and/or rdk have to say about regeneration while taking meds. It is an endeavor that I might have to take at some point I think.

I would really love to read some studies on Mg-l-threonate's regenerative properties. Hopefully CS has some on hand.

I haven't read any Peat but I know he is anti-serotonin. The original post was a clip from biopsychiatry.com (great site BTW). They address peat's theory and talk about the following French drug as some kind of Holy Grail of AD's. I was encouraged by this, but upon reading some actual user experiences with it I was extremely discouraged as they were all negative and would in fact support the SSRIS as this French drug works in the exact opposite way: It enhances the re-uptake of serotonin. Here is the clip about it:

Another "French" option is amineptine's cousin, tianeptine (Stablon). Tianeptine is a neuroprotective antidepressant that reverses the neuronal damage and lasting misery caused by uncontrolled stress. Chronic stress causes dysphoria by inducing corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF2) receptor stimulation of dynorphin release. The endogenous opioid peptide dynorphin activates the unpleasant kappa opioid receptors. Tianeptine acts both as a non-sedating anti-anxiety agent and a non-stimulating mood-brightener. Its use increases extracellular dopamine concentration in the nucleus accumbens and, at higher doses, in the frontal cortex. Uniquely in clinical medicine, tianeptine acts as a selective serotonin reuptake enhancer. Its puzzling efficacy as an antidepressant illustrates how little modern psychiatric medicine really understands about mind, mood and depression. Like other contemporary antidepressants, tianeptine's therapeutic action presumably depends on downstream adaptations both between and within neurons occurring over a period of several weeks. Chronic tianeptine use reverses stress-induced hippocampal dendritric atrophy and amgydaloid dendritic hypertrophy, which is just as nasty as it sounds. But the precise molecular mechanisms are obscure. Tianeptine/Stablon is not licensed in North America primarily because its patent has expired.

CausticSymmetry wrote:Paradox - Yes, three at a time is just fine. Also Mg-LT is the most effective internal method to repair the brain that is known. I suppose as a treatment it would be something like PEMF.

Also I meant to tell you about something before. You might be able to drop the MAO inhibitor by taking
AFA (Aphanizomenon flos-aquae). It requires a dose of 4 grams (that's 8 of these tablets). Personally I love this
stuff.

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Blue-Green-Algae-120-Tablets/679?at=hil335

More info on it here:

http://breathing.com/pdf/Depression-mood-add.pdf

Thanks CS, I will read that. Do you have studies on Mg-LT I can read?

Will it work if I am also taking the MAOI, or is it necessary that drugs be stopped?

Paradox - Most of what I know about Mag L-T is from feedback and some unpublished work.

J Neurosci. 2011 Oct 19;31(42):14871-81.
Effects of elevation of brain magnesium on fear conditioning, fear extinction, and synaptic plasticity in the infralimbic prefrontal cortex and lateral amygdala.
Abumaria N, Yin B, Zhang L, Li XY, Chen T, Descalzi G, Zhao L, Ahn M, Luo L, Ran C, Zhuo M, Liu G.

Tsinghua-Peking Center for Life Sciences, School of Medicine, Tsinghua University, 100084 Beijing, China.

Anxiety disorders, such as phobias and posttraumatic stress disorder, are among the most common mental disorders. Cognitive therapy helps in treating these disorders; however, many cases relapse or resist the therapy, which justifies the search for cognitive enhancers that might augment the efficacy of cognitive therapy. Studies suggest that enhancement of plasticity in certain brain regions such as the prefrontal cortex (PFC) and/or hippocampus might enhance the efficacy of cognitive therapy. We found that elevation of brain magnesium, by a novel magnesium compound [magnesium-l-threonate (MgT)], enhances synaptic plasticity in the hippocampus and learning and memory in rats. Here, we show that MgT treatment enhances retention of the extinction of fear memory, without enhancing, impairing, or erasing the original fear memory. We then explored the molecular basis of the effects of MgT treatment on fear memory and extinction. In intact animals, elevation of brain magnesium increased NMDA receptors (NMDARs) signaling, BDNF expression, density of presynaptic puncta, and synaptic plasticity in the PFC but, interestingly, not in the basolateral amygdala. In vitro, elevation of extracellular magnesium concentration increased synaptic NMDAR current and plasticity in the infralimbic PFC, but not in the lateral amygdala, suggesting a difference in their sensitivity to elevation of brain magnesium. The current study suggests that elevation of brain magnesium might be a novel approach for enhancing synaptic plasticity in a regional-specific manner leading to enhancing the efficacy of extinction without enhancing or impairing fear memory formation.

AFA might make it easier to reduce MAO inhibitors.

MgT treatment enhances retention of the extinction of fear memory, without enhancing, impairing, or erasing the original fear memory.

I don't quite understand what this means. Would you mind translating it?

JDP,

Is the sota magnetic pulser the same as the PEMF? or Rtms?

It's said 5% of the brain is made up of iridium and rhodium ormus. It's also said ormus increases electrical conductivity or similar. And I know it's said ormus works for depression. Here is a list of food sources for iridium and rhodium. Or could always build or order a ormus trap or magnetite water (meow kettle).

The main m-state ORME materials and cheap and convenient sources are
presented below:

GOLD :associated with the Pineal Gland.
Source: Any purple foods, eg: Welch's Concord grape juice
or pynogrape antioxidant formula at your health food store.

IRIDIUM :associated with the spinal-cord and Pituitary Gland. Some
consider this to be the philospher's stone.
Source: Organic carrots, organic green tea (decaf), shittake
mushrooms, Pycnogenol, watercress.

RHODIUM :associated with the Thymus Gland. Corrects and unwinds the
DNA for superior health.
Sources: tends to appear with Iridium. Use the Iridium list.

The reason why I say this is because it's these electrical/magnetic devices which may be the best treatments for depression. I really couldn't tell you why however as I forget a lot of what I read but I remember that was the conclusion on some of the best information I could find.

As for specific frequencies for depression, I really don't know at this time but I could always search if need be. Partly what happens with these electrical/magnetic devices where it helps Parkinson's, MS, Alzheimer's, depression, anxiety, etc. is through what's called brain entrainment. It helps to align oneself and reduce the noise in a manner of speaking.

While I don't know how well they work as I personally use Rife for the same benefit, you can listen to youtube videos or order CD's such as this and it may be helpful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfDm9ZwJXrY

As for the other question, I've never heard any contradictions using the electrical/magnetic devices while taking meds except for one. Many of these electrical devices create what's called electroporation where medication as well as vitamins and such are more absorbed in the body and thus may need to go on a lower dose.


1....,

Mag pulser is not exactly the same as tms as tms they dial in a specific frequency to either increase or decrease activity for a specific area of the brain and it's only done for a couple seconds.

Other than that it's pretty close. They are like cousins but a mag pulser can't do what a tms device can. But a tms device can do what a mag pulser can do.

The mag pulser however is closer to an PEMF device. The difference being is that PEMF devices can usually change the frequency on them from roughly 1 Hz to about roughtly 50 Hz or so. Whereas the mag pulser is set at one specific frequency or the Hulda Clark mag pulser I think has two or three frequencies.

The way one can simulate an tms device with a Rife machine is to use lower frequencies than the Earth's frequency to reduce an overstimulated brain. Or to use higher frequencies than the Earth's frequency to increase an understimulated brain. Course with this method you're not able to target specific areas of the brain like tms however.

Here is a quote that shows that these electrical and magnetic fields are two sides of the same coin. That you can't have one without the other.

In TMS [transcranial magnetic stimulation], electric charge stored in a capacitor is discharged through a stimulation coil, producing a current pulse in the circuit that generates a magnetic field pulse in the vicinity of the coil. According to Faraday’s law of electromagnetic induction, this time-varying magnetic field induces an electric field[b] whose magnitude is proportional to the time rate of change of the magnetic field, which in the case of TMS is determined by the rate of change of the current in the coil. [b]If the coil is held over a subject’s head, the magnetic field penetrates scalp and skull, and induces an electric field in the brain. The induced electric field causes ions to flow in the brain, without the need for current to flow across the skull and without charged particles being injected into the scalp.

...

The flow of ions brought about by the electric field induced in the brain alters the electric charge stored on both sides of cell membranes, depolarizing or hyperpolarizing neurons. The existence of passive ion channels renders the membrane permeable to these ions: an increased membrane conductance decreases the amplitude of the change in membrane potential due to the induced electric field and decreases the time constant that characterizes the leakage of the induced charge.

Paradox wrote:I would really love to read some studies on Mg-l-threonate's regenerative properties. Hopefully CS has some on hand.

I haven't read any Peat but I know he is anti-serotonin. The original post was a clip from biopsychiatry.com (great site BTW). They address peat's theory and talk about the following French drug as some kind of Holy Grail of AD's. I was encouraged by this, but upon reading some actual user experiences with it I was extremely discouraged as they were all negative and would in fact support the SSRIS as this French drug works in the exact opposite way: It enhances the re-uptake of serotonin. Here is the clip about it:

Another "French" option is amineptine's cousin, tianeptine (Stablon). Tianeptine is a neuroprotective antidepressant that reverses the neuronal damage and lasting misery caused by uncontrolled stress. Chronic stress causes dysphoria by inducing corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF2) receptor stimulation of dynorphin release. The endogenous opioid peptide dynorphin activates the unpleasant kappa opioid receptors. Tianeptine acts both as a non-sedating anti-anxiety agent and a non-stimulating mood-brightener. Its use increases extracellular dopamine concentration in the nucleus accumbens and, at higher doses, in the frontal cortex. Uniquely in clinical medicine, tianeptine acts as a selective serotonin reuptake enhancer. Its puzzling efficacy as an antidepressant illustrates how little modern psychiatric medicine really understands about mind, mood and depression. Like other contemporary antidepressants, tianeptine's therapeutic action presumably depends on downstream adaptations both between and within neurons occurring over a period of several weeks. Chronic tianeptine use reverses stress-induced hippocampal dendritric atrophy and amgydaloid dendritic hypertrophy, which is just as nasty as it sounds. But the precise molecular mechanisms are obscure. Tianeptine/Stablon is not licensed in North America primarily because its patent has expired.

Wow that site has a lot of overwhelming information, I think I may have come across it before. I was very interested in tianeptine a while back when considering more AD's. Actually, after I came across Peat's stuff. Here is the article I mentioned:

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/serotonin.shtml

I find his work to be very intriguing and helpful for expanding the mind, but I don't follow much if his philosophies on diet and supplements. I used to have a "Peaterian" approach to diet, but that was more of a wanting it to fit, while it is not the ideal approach for me. Anyways, tianeptine is a good candidate, however I wonder if it falls into the same category as the rest when CS says "all AD's destroy the brain." If it does I would avoid it at this point.

JDP if you where to get one of those devices, which one would you prefer?

rtms/tms but the machine costs $60,000 or $80,000. I forget which.

PEMF 100 would be my second choice but that machine costs $20,000.