Testosterone - a DHT antagonist?

Is increased testosterone good or bad for our hair? Instinctively, our first response is "bad." This is due to a belief prevalent among forums members that more testosterone = more DHT = more hair loss.

But after taking vitamin D (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20050857?) and tocotrienols (http://www.tocotrienol.org/en/index/news/73.html), I have begun to have serious doubts about this widely-held belief.

I also thought the following study was interesting:

Decline of plasma 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels upon testosterone administration to elderly men with subnormal plasma testosterone and high DHT levels.

Gooren LJ, Saad F, Haide A, Yassin A.
Vrije Universiteit Medical Center, Amsterdam, The Netherlands. ljgooren@truemail.co.th


Abstract
The study was performed to measure the impact of testosterone (T) administration on circulating levels of 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Group 1 (32 men; mean age 61 years; mean T 6.9 +/- 1.9 nmol l(-1)) were treated for 15 months with long-acting T undecanoate. Group 2 (23 men, mean age 60 years, mean T 7.6 +/- 2.0 nmol l(-1)) were treated for 9 months with T gel. Plasma T and DHT were measured before and after 9 months T administration. In the men treated with T undecanoate plasma T and DHT were also measured after 12 and 15 months. Before T administration, plasma DHT ranged from 0.39 to 1.76 nmol l(-1) (0.30-1.90 nmol l(-1)). Mean DHT declined upon T administration from 0.95 +/- 0.50 to 0.55 +/- 0.30 nmol l(-1) (P < 0.05). With an arbitrary cut-off at 0.60 nmol l(-1), all 21 values of DHT > 0.60 nmol l(-1) had fallen from 1.29 +/- 0.50 to 0.70 +/- 0.60 nmol l(-1) (P < 0.01). Below this cut-off point 13 values rose and 21 fell upon T administration. Below this cut-off point values on average declined from 0.39 +/- 0.12 to 0.30 +/- 0.14 nmol l(-1) (P < 0.05). The study revealed that in a cohort of elderly men with subnormal plasma T levels plasma DHT levels declined upon T administration when they were in the higher range of normal (>0.6 nmol l(-1)), with a profound shift of DHT/T ratios presumed to be an indicator of a reduced 5alpha-reductase activity. Below plasma DHT levels of 0.6 nmol l(-1),.

The Natural - I totally agree with you.

This has been my view for a while. I always do make note that in the young who have very high testosterone levels, their SHBG levels are often too low which is brought on by a transient insulin resistance due to growth spurts.

In diabetes care, when testosterone is increased, insulin regulation improves dramatically and estrogen levels drop.

Despite the study above and what is stated here, I'm sure most will believe the testosterone is 'bad' myth for a long time to come.

My thoughts are that test itself is bad for hair (which has been shown in vitro), and that using exogenous testosterone will always hurt your hair.

On the other hand if your body is producing plenty of testosterone, it's a sign that your body is running smoothly. This may explain why people with high test levels don't seem more prone to hair loss.

albe - That states it perfectly I think.

Low testosterone is often a symptom of insulin resistance, and with this is almost always excessive aromatase, so with exogenous testosterone, much of it is converted into estrogen and DHT.

On the other hand, if testosterone is boosted on its own, DHT should go down, along with estrogen.

This is what is seen clinically.

The one exception to exogenous testosterone is when insulin resistance is corrected, then aromatase is lowered and less of the T is converted into DHT and estrogen.

CS - What do you surmise would occur if one used HCG to increase testosterone production via the increase in LH?

jmoss1982 - In the majority of people, probably a very positive result, assuming their LH levels are lower than normal. Wouldn't expect any excess DHT conversion.

CS,

What specific lab test would verify that insulin resistance had been corrected? What other signs would one look for?

Are we talking HCG - pregnyl? If so, at what doses?

Paradox - Triglycerides, GTT with insulin levels every 30 minutes.

IH,

In general, is it that as men age, they have: A. higher levels of estrogen; B. lower levels of DHT; C. lower levels of testosterone; and less hair

or

A. higher levels of estrogen; B. higher levels of DHT; C. lower levels of testosterone; and less hair?

There is a growing group of people who believe that estrogen, not testosterone, is responsible for hair loss in men. What are your thoughts?

Thanks,
TN

I am very interested in this too

I was claiming confidently and against the vast majority of people that balding in older men was probably caused by low T and high DHT, but everyone (including Bryan o.O heh) was saying I was wrong!

Nowadays I realize there may be a little more to it, but I still haven't removed my sights from high DHT as a considerable possibility for triggering hair loss in older men!

Thank you for that study The Natural, it's great to see some good proof of this

The Natural wrote:IH,

In general, is it that as men age, they have: A. higher levels of estrogen; B. lower levels of DHT; C. lower levels of testosterone; and less hair

or

A. higher levels of estrogen; B. higher levels of DHT; C. lower levels of testosterone; and less hair?

There is a growing group of people who believe that estrogen, not testosterone, is responsible for hair loss in men. What are your thoughts?

Thanks,
TN

The medical studies i've read say that estrogen rises, testosterone falls, DHT stays the same.

Oh, would it be ok if I copied this study / general thread theme onto HLT? I think it might turn a few heads and correct some myths!

The Natural - Older men have less testosterone, more estrogen and less hair.

Recently, I was shocked to see something in the news that was presented as "new" information
and yet this concept was nothing new to any integrative physician knowledgeable in bio-identical hormones.

This news is ten years too late: http://esciencenews.com/articles/2010/04/19/does.a.mans.estrogen.level.impact.his.risk.prostate.cancer

As men age, their SHBG levels climb, their aromatase levels increase which allows more testosterone to convert into estrogen. Older men have more oxidative stress, and contributes to poor glucose metabolism, this depresses testosterone levels.

Excellent information, IH. It is consistent with what I am now learning. We must redirect our attention (away from testosterone, and even DHT) to aromatase levels and the real culprit of deteriorating health: estrogen.

I've just concluded marathon discussions (debates, arguments) with Bryan at another site. After I made him aware of this testosterone study, things quieted down a tad.

The Natural - OMG, that must have been interesting, LOL!

Congrats, he isn't that much fun to debate, he's even visited here once and that didn't go anywhere.

Bryan is the type who worships research, whereas I am more pro-clinical experience.

That's the first time he's probably seen anything like this.

Yes, IH. It was something else, let me tell you: http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum-category-4.html

It was my first, how shall I put, "encounter" with him. Admittedly, this hormone stuff does confuse me at times. But, as you'll see in the thread above, I am not the idiot that he, oh so, desperately tried to portray me as.

Good stuff TN! You actually beat me to it as one of the reasons I wanted to put that study on HLT was to point Bryan at it!

It would genuinely be really nice to see some things make Bryan open his eyes and change his tune a bit, I don't know if it will ever happen but it would certainly be a very welcome change!

I think so too, Hoppi.

Interestingly, just received this from the boys at MPB Research (http://www.hairloss-research.org/index.html):

Testosterone may function as a dht antagonist as a man ages, having positive implications for hair growth and health. The prevailing myth for years has been that a high testosterone level is somehow bad for hair, due largely to its assumed propensity to increase DHT. We still occasionally get pestered with the age old question, will lifting weights increase hair loss, due to the increase in testosterone.・First of all, the borderline moronic way most people train (or overtrain) will have little effect, if any on raising testosterone, and even if it did they would likely be helping their hair in a roundabout way. An associated myth is that balding men are somehow more virile, with the perverse paradox being that hair loss likely reduces the chance of having virile・encounters. One study evaluating hormone levels in men with hair loss revealed that men with MPB actually have lower testosterone levels than the non-balding controls. So much for the myth of increased virility.

The one exception to this appears to be older adolescent and young males who can occasionally manifest early onset MPB due to a combination of high testosterone and low Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), facilitated by insulin resistance associated with growth spurts.

So should I actually use exogenous testosterone for hair growth you ask? Not so fast. If you have low testosterone you invariably have an insulin resistant state and a higher level of aromatase , and you will convert much of it to estrogen and DHT, predisposing to bodyfat accumulation ,prostate disorders and hair loss.

However if testosterone is increased on its own vis a vis insulin management and pharmaceutical and/or plant based aromatase inhibitors, estrogen and DHT will typically decline. If exogenous testosterone is introduced AFTER insulin resistance has ameliorated, it is not likely to be problematic for hair. So the question becomes, what can be done to inhibit aromtase and facilitate insulin management to optimize my hormone profile for both health and hair growth?

Several things. In no particular order: Green Tea Extract, Black Tea Extract, Resveratrol, Pomegranate Extract all have established en vivo aromatase inhibiting, testosterone increasing properties in human and animal models. All are also documented and viable players in helping to treat insulin resistance.

Dietary common sense, translated- a mostly raw, moderate to high protein diet with lots of saturated fats (yes you read that correctly) like Red Palm and Coconut Oil, minimal to no grains, and lots nuts ,seeds, fruits and vegetables will by itself largely correct an insulin resistant state.

By far the best excersize for health and hair is a combination of resistance training, (Kettlebells are by far my favorite) along with a short sprint based oxygenating aerobic workout, known as HIIT or in its most intense form, Tabata interval training. This type of training has been shown to improve insulin resistance. Sustained distance aerobics could theoretically have a negative impact on hair and overall health via several mechanisms.

So if there `is a takeaway here, let it be that you realize that a physiologically high testosterone is actually your friend , not your enemy in the fight against hair loss, and that are several ways one can readily increase your testosterone levels, ameliorate insulin resistance, and simultaneously enhance your health and longevity.



Decline of plasma 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels upon testosterone administration to elderly men with subnormal plasma testosterone and high DHT levels.


Gooren LJ, Saad F, Haide A, Yassin A.
Vrije Universiteit Medical Center, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Abstract

The study was performed to measure the impact of testosterone (T) administration on circulating levels of 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Group 1 (32 men; mean age 61 years; mean T 6.9 +/- 1.9 nmol l(-1)) were treated for 15 months with long-acting T undecanoate. Group 2 (23 men, mean age 60 years, mean T 7.6 +/- 2.0 nmol l(-1)) were treated for 9 months with T gel. Plasma T and DHT were measured before and after 9 months T administration. In the men treated with T undecanoate plasma T and DHT were also measured after 12 and 15 months. Before T administration, plasma DHT ranged from 0.39 to 1.76 nmol l(-1) (0.30-1.90 nmol l(-1)). Mean DHT declined upon T administration from 0.95 +/- 0.50 to 0.55 +/- 0.30 nmol l(-1) (P < 0.05). With an arbitrary cut-off at 0.60 nmol l(-1), all 21 values of DHT > 0.60 nmol l(-1) had fallen from 1.29 +/- 0.50 to 0.70 +/- 0.60 nmol l(-1) (P < 0.01). Below this cut-off point 13 values rose and 21 fell upon T administration. Below this cut-off point values on average declined from 0.39 +/- 0.12 to 0.30 +/- 0.14 nmol l(-1) (P < 0.05). The study revealed that in a cohort of elderly men with subnormal plasma T levels plasma DHT levels declined upon T administration when they were in the higher range of normal (>0.6 nmol l(-1)), with a profound shift of DHT/T ratios presumed to be an indicator of a reduced 5alpha-reductase activity. Below plasma DHT levels of 0.6 nmol

I remember there was discussion before on natural aromatase inhibitors (or lack-there-of)... Are there any options that work well in practice aside from theory? I have used the drug ai's in the past, but they come with their list of negative side effects. Things like tribulus that increase testosterone via LH are only beneficial to those with normal levels of shbg and aromatase. I agree that exogenous testosterone is detrimental for the reasons given in that article and not because of dht. I think insulin resistance is the key. What about lowering shbg to free T? That is one that is rarely talked about. I'm not aware of any supplements that do that?

If estrogen is responsible for mpb, why does fin work for so many ?

I second that question NrwgnKID..

My hair loss started at about 18 years old. I don't have many traits of Testosterone such as acne, muscular body. So this made me believe that maybe estrogen might have something to do with my hair loss.


But Finasteride halted my hair loss at one stage, so does this mean that Estrogen isn't a factor in my hair loss?

Decro435 wrote:I second that question NrwgnKID..

My hair loss started at about 18 years old. I don't have many traits of Testosterone such as acne, muscular body. So this made me believe that maybe estrogen might have something to do with my hair loss.


But Finasteride halted my hair loss at one stage, so does this mean that Estrogen isn't a factor in my hair loss?

hehe as I understand you might be missing the point there I think the idea is that if your T is low / E is high, 5ar is upregulated and your body makes shedloads of DHT (ie, converts the T it DOES have to DHT more). I could be wrong hehe, but this is what I understood! I'll have to read more of this thread a bit later!

(why do I spend so long arguing on HLT and so little time actually DISCUSSING things constructively on here? lol)

[quote="Hoppipolla if your T is low / E is high, 5ar is upregulated and your body makes shedloads of DHT[/quote]

What is the science behind this ? High estrogen alone upregulates 5ar and make "shedloads" of DHT ?

The underlying cause of high estrogen / low test / high DHT is poor glucose metabolism or lack of sensitivity to insuling am I right ? So this we correct through our lifestyle changes !

But what would be interesting to raise a question on, as I see it, is if in vivo estrogen is more damaging directly to our hair than previously thought. So who is "missing the point" ? Correct me if I am, please