Detumescence Reloaded

Perhaps hat wearing, stretched skin over scalp,   pillow compression, and   other long term pressure is not good for hair bearing tissue, and may very well lead to hair loss.   This is very different than a few seconds of pressure to regenerate the skin.

So, all you are in fact doing is adding to mechanical stress, even if you're doing it for a few seconds per press. What is the point of this when we know that mech force is deleterious to hair health? This is the equivalent of putting your hand in a pan of boiling water, then, for good measure, putting your scalded hand in a hot oven. Where's the logic?

It's blatantly obvious to anyone Choy - the originator of this method - was lying through his teeth, and the ideas therein wouldn't even be fit enough to be classed as pseudo science. Therefore, I have to ask you, CD, what made you  even bother having faith in this to begin with? None of it makes any sense.

Myself? I think you're shilling for someone, and have been using minox or fin. I mean, JohnDoe has been doing this since 2015, he lost more hair. Hotspur and many others followed similar regimens and reported the same results. These guys are younger and haven't been balding for 20 years, yet you - an older guy - claims positive results??

Why should you be the exception to the rule?

Hotsperm can't even read a scientific study, he is too busy at the altar of his hero vegan propagandist dr greger cause "i'm vegan bro"

Xenon yo're a pseudo skeptic nihilist, you should just leave the board honestly. Your family must hate you

If someone is diagnosed with terminal cancer and has no hope to live, but their cancer goes in to remission which does happen they are they exceptions aren't they?

Xenon mentioned burning the skin as a parallel to demonstrate that all mechanical pressure applied to the scalp has the same detrimental effect;  not matter the duration or method of application.

My response is that even with skin burning, if it is done with lasers for a brief amount of time and precision injury; results in skin regeneration. It is like trying to convince somebody from the 1950s that precision injury burns produce skin regeneration, and they keep saying not possible - I can show you my water burned hands, all burns are the same .

https://www.webmd.com/beauty/laser-resurfacing#1
"Erbium laser resurfacing is designed to remove surface-level and moderately deep lines and wrinkles on the face, hands, neck, or chest. One of the benefits of erbium laser resurfacing is minimal burning of surrounding tissue."

-----

Next related point.  
One of the foundations of Xenons theory is that the effects of mechanical stress apply only if the scalp is already in a state to lose hair. Everybody knows that women with great hair sleep on pillows,  wear hats, even carry heavy bags (or pots on head in some countries) , and do not have bald spots where the pressure was .

So the assumption that people that already are likely to lose their hair ,  will lose it if they apply mechanical pressure, is not much of a revelation.  I even agree,  if you are losing your hair you do not want to do anything that will restrict oxygen, blood flow, or oil release.    

The difference is that with my pressing method, is the result is opposite.  There is more blood flow,  oil release, and the skin is cleaner to breathe and regenerate.

As to why I get the results and few others have reported the same. First is that regular massage will not break up the sharp pains felt under the skin when pressed.  It is most likely a problem to have these probable calcium deposits.  Until you endure the pain to press these out over the months, you have not passed stage one.  They may be calcium plaque deposits reducing blood flow to hair follicles.   When this is achieved there will not be sharp pain when pressing at 15 pounds pressure.

Secondly is the longevity of the process of natural  regrow.  For most they are already having shed.  Of course pressing may well add to this shed , as most effective treatments invoke shedding. To have faith that it will all be worth it is a leap of faith.  My photos are slow progress, and hardly highschool quality restoration.  Just evidence of concept so far,  yes the method does slowly regrow hair, and a few terminal hairs in the focus area.  I have hundreds of new terminal hairs across my scalp,  but very hard to sort out new from old in a photo.  There are hundreds of hairs visible in the grafts area now,  not just the very few pictured in the before photos.

So the summary is that very few have claimed to even try my method.  Of those that did there are a few that say that it helps reduce their hairloss.  John Doe is a repeat on your part from past threads,  every time you say that he got nowhere with the treatment,  John has to come on an say the same thing,  he barely stuck to any schedule, took long breaks, did many other things, and certainly did nothing in time duration as I have.

Why did I have inspiration to start this high force method?   I had needled with minox before, and saw similar results of a few random hairs just popping out within the first few weeks. With pressing I saw the same thing,  of course no minox, just oils and natural extracts. Then the slow thickening of the base mat of hair began on the border areas.

So in conclusion , I think the Xenon has valid scientific evidence; if you want to assist reducing the speed of loss,  do not mechanically restrict your scalp resulting in reduced blood or oxygen flow; and be gentle with your scalp unless you know what your are doing.    
As for my method,  it is unique, precise enough, based on regeneration therapies like needling and laser restoration,  very well documented, and I have no reason to waste my time misrepresenting the journey.  It is not popular to tell people it will hurt like hell and take years.  I live in Thailand,  I have a great life, and plenty of money.   This is for those who want to see a real method to consider.  It will be different for everybody,  but my method is absolutely is working for me.

Hey cd, glad to have you chime in.  Yes, I've tried many different things and haven't stuck with one method for a long time.  For the last, maybe, two months I've been doing simple DT followed by hair pulling (hair pulling feels really great and relaxing if you do it right). I will probably get back to your method soon.

Ahhh its all starting to make sense

Yeh, but, CD, the point I was trying to make was, mech force from the pillow is already causing some injury byway of shear and friction. So, if this tissue is already injured, then the pill roll will just add to this already existing problem. And as we know AGA follicles already have issues with regenerating, and we believe this regeneration to be androgen / DHT mediated.

The pathophysiology is similar to how pressure sores form, albeit far less severe, yet, still does make it's mark internally because any tissues pressed against bony prominences will succumb to shear and friction injury.

Is it not so that the to and fro motion of your pill bottle technique would do just this? It, IMO, is just continuing where the pillow left off.

As for JohnDoe, let's face it, he was doing this method for ages, and, having lost more ground he naturally lost faith (understandably so), and started doing it less and less until he completely gave up. That's the reality of it, it's just that he has lots of respect for you, so doesn't want to offend you by telling you it failed him.

I, myself, don't like being offensive towards you because you do actually seem like a decent guy, and always respond in a mature and dignified manner, despite me being abrasive. But hey, there's just been way too many shady characters and all around shadiness connected to this method for me to ever believe it to be legit - despite the modifications you personally made.

cdto2012 wrote:There is a big difference between temporary pressure and long term tissue compression.

Further to our discussion on temporary pressure and pillows. A word on so called tonic contractions.

In Segura's study, he noted:

'The involuntary tonic contraction of occipitofrontalis muscle is related to psychological stress conditions,[23] facial expression,[24] the maintenance of visual field,[19] and an aponeurotic tension model of human craniofacial growth.'

This reminded me of the following Danny Roddy post:



Wilhem Reich's quote implies these emotional traits and facial expressions are common among hair-loss sufferers ...

Once upon a time I laughed at this ^ Rob's paper, coupled with learning about Orthotropics, has given me a fresh perspective. Orthotropics outlines how tongue and mouth posture can influence the shape of our jaw and face over time.



Subtle shifts in posture can have a profound influence on our appearance. It isn't outlandish then to suggest tonic contractions in our facial muscles can influence our hairline -- If those muscles constrict the Occiptofrontalis as Segura suggests.

Rob's paper notes ancillary scalp muscles, the aurecular and temporal, may be at play in hair-loss. Segura outlines the anatomy of the occipitofrontalis. A muscle that originates at the eyebrows, extending to the hairline and crown.

Since we're discussing 'Pillow Pressure', I'll share an anecdote of my own.

I've suffered from muscular tension in the left hemisphere of my hairline for years. This is also where I've noted recession. After reading this research, I realized that tension originated from clenching the left side of my jaw during periods of stress.

Since I've noted this (and loosened up) that tension has all but disappeared. Just anecdotal. It is what it is.

Tonic (& chronic) contractions and muscular imbalances over time likely contribute to an uneven distribution of mechanical tension. This tension may account for the lopsided patterns of recession exhibited by some hair-loss sufferers.

Whatever your stance on Rob, his pathology model is more cohesive than the age old Androgen Hypothesis. Even as the best method to 'undo' mechanical tension, calcification and fibrosis is up for debate ...

Myself, I still believe the androgen hypothesis to be very much correct, it's just that many researchers tend to struggle in tying this in with other factors in AGA and presenting a unifying hairloss theory. I personally think that the androgen issue is pretty much the hub of the problem, in being that it prevents stem cells from maturing into progenitor cells -- cells required for terminal hair growth. When this happens the follicle is no longer 'impervious' to a myriad form of injuries (inflammation), and will just continue to deteriorate.

How is this problem solved? I do know of a way in which follicles can be triggered into producing terminal hairs (without any drugs), and I discussed this a long time ago; the only issue is, you could make yourself very ill in attempting to reactivate hair growth genes. Despite this, I've been throwing caution to the wind and giving this a second shot (despite falling very ill last week during my attempt), but I'll keep going until I see something positive.

Edited: As I've mentioned many times before, androgens are definitely involved in AGA because we only have to look at the number of F2M transsexuals who start experiencing baldness during T therapy. That's the smoking gun, right there.

Xenon wrote:
I do know of a way in which follicles can be triggered into producing terminal hairs (without any drugs), and I discussed this a long time ago; the only issue is, you could make yourself very ill in attempting to reactivate hair growth genes. Despite this, I've been throwing caution to the wind and giving this a second shot (despite falling very ill last week during my attempt), but I'll keep going until I see something positive.

... Care to elaborate?

Hotspur wrote:

Xenon wrote:
I do know of a way in which follicles can be triggered into producing terminal hairs (without any drugs), and I discussed this a long time ago; the only issue is, you could make yourself very ill in attempting to reactivate hair growth genes. Despite this, I've been throwing caution to the wind and giving this a second shot (despite falling very ill last week during my attempt), but I'll keep going until I see something positive.

... Care to elaborate?

Not right now. I don't want to be responsible for anyone falling gravely ill. I will experiment for a few months and observe for any changes, then try to refine things so that you don't get sick when doing this. I know for certain that this method does produce terminal hair growth in non AGA cases, but if my thinking is correct, then the same principle should apply for AGA too.

Let's see.

I'm reloading the topic.


This picture is misleading and trying to bullshit us. Different lights and the last is taken from up, making it sound like he gained back 90% of his hair (which he did NOT at all, when you see the other pics).

The link of the site here
Am I the only one who doesn't see progress after seeing all pics ? All comments congratulate him.


Xenon, you, you're against detumescence therapy and any massage, right ?
You also said that Rob never really proved he was loosing hair.
What's your take on this ?


I don't know what to think about the guy (Rob).
Sometimes the pics are pretty shitty, like this one:


I mean, if I was asking a guy to provide me photos for my site, I would ask him to take the photos correctly and with different views. Here the left pic is barely showing all the head.  


This one, are you kidding me ?
Do you have any darker room so I could see less ? In 2018, you can't take photos more clearly and under sunlight ?


These, no comment. Don't know what to think:


Xenon, roast them please. My ass is between two chairs now.

I've been more than vocal about Rob and the rest of them. As far as I'm concerned the writing is well and truly on the wall, and I don't care what documents he's presented to "prove" he was balding. The fact is, the Choy study was a sham which caused worse incidences of baldness (for the reasons I provided), as did Ferox' boar brushing. Therefore, how was it so that they miraculously cured Rob (within months) and a couple more he was clearly in cahoots with - yet made everyone else more bald than ever? Could it be that it conveniently "worked" for him because he is making money from all of this?

That JD Moyer guy... what better way to direct potential customers into his online music store where he is selling his own dance music? IMO This is click bait 101. The guy - a struggling dance musician - makes extraordinary claims about DT curing his baldness (wow!); he provides links to his blog aka music store, and, of course, traffic is massively multiplied. He keeps people coming back to his music store by offering updates on his progress; with each visit the likelihood is that they will also browse his site and purchase his music or that of one of the artists he is managing via his record label. In other words, you go there to get your hair, instead you leave with a CD.  

By his own admission, this guy formed an evening club dedicated to defeating the stock market, but they failed in their attempt (perhaps this is where he met his friend Rob whose site he endlessly promotes?). I'd say it's pretty much fair to assume he has a mania for getting rich, and certainly no fool to deceptive marketing tactics.  

From his website:

Joe
Hey JD, would you consider doing a video of how you do this method? A real tutorial, not like Robs, thx!

J.D. Moyer
Rob and I are planning to meet up and discuss this. Question — would such a tutorial be something you’d be happy to pay for? What would you consider a reasonable price to be?

^^Not doing it for the money or anything, eh?

J.D. Moyer
I’m not selling anything or trying to trick anyone.

^^Really? And there's me thinking I just clicked onto a music store.

BTW you commented on one of the pics: "This one, are you kidding me ?" These pics were already uploaded here by a former board member called Keanoseg. He seemed so sincere, he had many believers hanging off his every word until he decided to pull a very silly stunt and upload those very pics which left his credibility in tatters. He's also since (on Rob's site) used an intermediate photo, whereas originally it was just the first pic (the horseshoe hairline), then the last one displaying full regrowth. This miraculous recovery within a mere 2 months, while everyone else is balding at a hare's pace? He knew he got totally rumbled, so didn't even bother sticking around to defend his case. Like the other fraud Complexx (and Co), once rumbled, he did a moonlight flit.

TBH I honestly don't really give a shit if there are affiliate marketers on here (or elsewhere) who are trying to cash in on some bogus product or using deceptive marketing tactics to direct traffic to their websites; I just think it's highly immoral to 1. promote a hair loss therapy that leaves people worse off than before 2. For me to have foreknowledge of the likely consequences and sit back and say nothing. Yes, I took a ton of shit in the process and occasionally still do (LOL) and they tried to write me off as howl-at-the-moon-roll-around-in-my-own-feces-insane, but if I managed to convince a few people not to walk into that minefield, then it was sure worthwhile. Besides, the resulting flame wars were somewhat amusing (for a while) too.

Not this bs again, I did this for 2 years, didn't gain much maybe some vellus hairs, thats it.

i did it also for 2years+ ,and i gained some hair and also saved what i have ..i dont know why it works for me and some others , there is always hidden factors make some treatment works for some people and does not for others . from my experience DT can force hair to grow in a slick bald area that even finastride cant do it , the problem is in some area like temples hair grow to 1mm and stay like that for very long time ,at the V shape area hair can grow longer but thin and the density is poor so you still looks bald .
i dont think Rob could grow full head of hair as in his pics just by doing DT unless he is very very early mpb and he has less calcification .as you can see from CDto2012 experiment it is a very slow progress .
so if you do DT for 2~3 months and gain nothing it is better to stop and try something else.
good luck for all of us