good news diffuse thinneres! regimen for diffuse hairloss that i know will work for the majority!

Dan, thanks for all the info you post here - sounds like you know your stuff :-) This thread is specific to diffuse thinners, but I'm interested - what, in your opinion, is the difference between diffuse hair loss and 'regular' MPB?

Do you think it's worth doing what you've described here for the average pattern balder or would you tackle it from another angle?

PS. Dan, I'm loving what you're saying here, and I don't want to sound like a DICK, but would you consider putting your posts in paragraphs? Makes it much easier for us to digest (pun intended)   

I didn't go very in depth with how all the B vitamins work, but rather experimenting with dosing them differently to found out my demands. I am buying separately all of them (b1, b2, b3, b5,...) and i mix them with their cofactors, so i make my own B complex (It is just me or there is problem getting quality b multy if you are not buying from US?). If possible, i buy activated. We are each unique on how much of particular B vitamin one needs. I work best if i am on extra b2, b3, b6 combo. Addressing MTHFR was more of a thing at the time as i take methylfolate once or twice a week now (everyday but in average of dosages). But take care i take plenty of green vegetables also.

I dont think there is unique recipe for everybody on this.
1g of riboflavin sounds a whole lot for me. Also for the biotin part. I am sure we require all the other stuff as well to function well. Dosing a few vitamins in mega doses can work very good on short periods of time, but wouldn't go about longer as your body can disagree with this due its demands are constantly changing - if not, you found your demands that come from your genetics, imo.

In general i like idea of maximizing ATP production as much as possible. However do think balance is where maximization happens. Don't forgetting about sun exposure, exercise and all the other nutrition part as well. They are co-factors that come from whole another sources...

This sounds like it could work, but I wonder about the long term implications of it all because if this really was ideal, surely there would be a way to acquire these nutrients via diet. However, at these doses I don't think it's practical. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway I hope this also works for receding hair lines but due to how tight money is I can't afford to make myself into the guinea pig so I guess I'll just keep watch on this thread in case any success stories pop up.

SonofOdin wrote:This sounds like it could work, but I wonder about the long term implications of it all because if this really was ideal, surely there would be a way to acquire these nutrients via diet. However, at these doses I don't think it's practical. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway I hope this also works for receding hair lines but due to how tight money is I can't afford to make myself into the guinea pig so I guess I'll just keep watch on this thread in case any success stories pop up.

This argument, best to get nutrients via diet is most common and i also had hard time digest it properly. The truth is, nutritional requirements are due faster living and more stressors (EMF smog decrease plasma b vitamins, for example...) increased, while food you buy in store have less and less what your body needs (specially GMO, and food on steroids that grows on depleted soils).

It's a bit ''drugging'' yourself  feeling while bunch of pills are to be taken, but its a way to get away while eating not perfect. And perfect is due plenty other reasons (antinutrients, pesticides, food preparation, time required) hard to get.

Yes, its B12 that requires a factor in stomach acid. That is in order to utilize it as its present in food. I dont believe the HCL is required if it is coming in supplement form, but don't quote me on that.

The B vitamins are probably the nutrient I know the least about. But I do know achlorhydria is a big problem than people probably think. Interestingly, a deficiency in vitamin B1, will lower stomach acid and subsequently lead to B12 deficiencies.

A couple of major causes for lower stomach acid: H Pylori, Candida overgrowths, zinc deficiency, B1 deficiency, over eating and eating too much carbohydrate relative to protein.

I've noticed my digestive issues improve a great deal on HCL tablets with meals. I haven't been doing it for a while, but I recall that after eating I started actually getting this energzed feeling. At the time I couldn't remember the last time a meal made me feel good afterward. I typically always feel bloated, groggy, poor mood.

Beebrox wrote:I didn't go very in depth with how all the B vitamins work, but rather experimenting with dosing them differently to found out my demands. I am buying separately all of them (b1, b2, b3, b5,...) and i mix them with their cofactors, so i make my own B complex (It is just me or there is problem getting quality b multy if you are not buying from US?). If possible, i buy activated. We are each unique on how much of particular B vitamin one needs. I work best if i am on extra b2, b3, b6 combo. Addressing MTHFR was more of a thing at the time as i take methylfolate once or twice a week now (everyday but in average of dosages). But take care i take plenty of green vegetables also.

I dont think there is unique recipe for everybody on this.
1g of riboflavin sounds a whole lot for me. Also for the biotin part. I am sure we require all the other stuff as well to function well. Dosing a few vitamins in mega doses can work very good on short periods of time, but wouldn't go about longer as your body can disagree with this due its demands are constantly changing - if not, you found your demands that come from your genetics, imo.

In general i like idea of maximizing ATP production as much as possible. However do think balance is where maximization happens. Don't forgetting about sun exposure, exercise and all the other nutrition part as well. They are co-factors that come from whole another sources...

hey beebrox, well to explain my reasoning for emphasis on these nutrients ill explain. Biotin is required for several decarboxyating reactions. Its required to convert glucose into pyruvate and pyruvate to oxaloacetate. These reactions are requiredfor proper amino acid metabolism during times of sparse glucose. Acetyl coa requires enough oxaloacetate to be rendered useful. Acetyl Coa synthesis requires enough thiamine and pantothenic acid. Now when you start to look at this you can see how crucial and fundemental these nutrients are. Riboflavin and niacin are use in electron transport and can easily be depleted if chronically stressed and requirements for glucose increase further more using muscle in the body and depleting all these nutrients. Its a visous cycle. Manganese and magnesium are used to form glucose out of oxaloacetate in gluccogeniss and i also suplement these. Pyridoxine is used to activate the enzyme transaminase wich is used to convert one amino acid to another and to form keto acids. The odd thing though is that B6 is very low tolerated in most people on the net yet i believe that problem is were most metabolic issues lie at its core. It has something to do with the missuse of B6. Btw i dont use any active forms since riboflavin is easily phosphoralated and is used to activate folate and b6.

AS54 wrote:Yes, its B12 that requires a factor in stomach acid. That is in order to utilize it as its present in food. I dont believe the HCL is required if it is coming in supplement form, but don't quote me on that.

The B vitamins are probably the nutrient I know the least about. But I do know achlorhydria is a big problem than people probably think. Interestingly, a deficiency in vitamin B1, will lower stomach acid and subsequently lead to B12 deficiencies.

A couple of major causes for lower stomach acid: H Pylori, Candida overgrowths, zinc deficiency, B1 deficiency, over eating and eating too much carbohydrate relative to protein.

I've noticed my digestive issues improve a great deal on HCL tablets with meals. I haven't been doing it for a while, but I recall that after eating I started actually getting this energzed feeling. At the time I couldn't remember the last time a meal made me feel good afterward. I typically always feel bloated, groggy, poor mood.

biotin does wounders for my stomach acid and digestive system, thats at 50 mg or above.

If i recall correctly what needs to have to produce stomach acid - along B1 and salt, there is also iodine, zinc and B6. Another reason to start supplementing iodine. It's like all roads that lead to Rome, AS54   ...

There is a whole lot more pathogens that interfere with absorbing B12 - giardia is for example another very common one.

While working on stomach and gut health, also hiatal hernia is where magic can happen for some.

V-Bs are powerful indeed.

I wish there were a non-surgical way to fix hiatal hernia. I remember being told about a way one time by a chriopractor I knew (not a patient of). He said he's never performed it for a patient because its very painful. The way he explained it to me is basically you fast for 24 hours to totally clear the bowels and then he's got to insert both hands, like a wedge, up and underneath your rib cage, while one set of fingers pushes up the diaphragm and secures it and the other hand pulls downward to pull the herniated tissue through. It sounds awful.

danthethinningman wrote:
hey beebrox, well to explain my reasoning for emphasis on these nutrients ill explain. Biotin is required for several decarboxyating reactions. Its required to convert glucose into pyruvate and pyruvate to oxaloacetate. These reactions are requiredfor proper amino acid metabolism during times of sparse glucose. Acetyl coa requires enough oxaloacetate to be rendered useful. Acetyl Coa synthesis requires enough thiamine and pantothenic acid. Now when you start to look at this you can see how crucial and fundemental these nutrients are. Riboflavin and niacin are use in electron transport and can easily be depleted if chronically stressed and requirements for glucose increase further more using muscle in the body and depleting all these nutrients. Its a visous cycle. Manganese and magnesium are used to form glucose out of oxaloacetate in gluccogeniss and i also suplement these. Pyridoxine is used to activate the enzyme transaminase wich is used to convert one amino acid to another and to form keto acids. The odd thing though is that B6 is very low tolerated in most people on the net yet i believe that problem is were most metabolic issues lie at its core. It has something to do with the missuse of B6. Btw i dont use any active forms since riboflavin is easily phosphoralated and is used to activate folate and b6.

Will you give me a reference on this one, so i can look at the schematics as well? To be honest at the moment i dont know the roles of all substances you mentioned. Your logic would be trying to maximize amino acids and fatty acids synthesis, while taking care of metabolism of glucose properly, aka fixing damaged metabolism? No doubt you've done some homework here, but i can't see the biotin part yet, as this posts sends me to school...

AS54 wrote:I wish there were a non-surgical way to fix hiatal hernia. I remember being told about a way one time by a chriopractor I knew (not a patient of). He said he's never performed it for a patient because its very painful. The way he explained it to me is basically you fast for 24 hours to totally clear the bowels and then he's got to insert both hands, like a wedge, up and underneath your rib cage, while one set of fingers pushes up the diaphragm and secures it and the other hand pulls downward to pull the herniated tissue through. It sounds awful.

My conclusion is that it can be done with out a surgery. But see it in a similar manner as people who do manuals for hair loss - there are people who do improve and there are those who dont. One thing is for sure, it's not one time solution. Limiting harm by hiatal hernia would be not going to bed with full stomach and dont overeat. If acid reflux is an issue, it might be worth trying regardless of time investments.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fixing%20hiatal%20hernia&sm=3

just noticed i forgot to mention was that malate dehydrogenase is a niacin dependent enzyme wich also is required to sythesize oxaloacetate. Also beebrox what is your exp with b6?

Beebrox wrote:

danthethinningman wrote:
hey beebrox, well to explain my reasoning for emphasis on these nutrients ill explain. Biotin is required for several decarboxyating reactions. Its required to convert glucose into pyruvate and pyruvate to oxaloacetate. These reactions are requiredfor proper amino acid metabolism during times of sparse glucose. Acetyl coa requires enough oxaloacetate to be rendered useful. Acetyl Coa synthesis requires enough thiamine and pantothenic acid. Now when you start to look at this you can see how crucial and fundemental these nutrients are. Riboflavin and niacin are use in electron transport and can easily be depleted if chronically stressed and requirements for glucose increase further more using muscle in the body and depleting all these nutrients. Its a visous cycle. Manganese and magnesium are used to form glucose out of oxaloacetate in gluccogeniss and i also suplement these. Pyridoxine is used to activate the enzyme transaminase wich is used to convert one amino acid to another and to form keto acids. The odd thing though is that B6 is very low tolerated in most people on the net yet i believe that problem is were most metabolic issues lie at its core. It has something to do with the missuse of B6. Btw i dont use any active forms since riboflavin is easily phosphoralated and is used to activate folate and b6.

Will you give me a reference on this one, so i can look at the schematics as well? To be honest at the moment i dont know the roles of all substances you mentioned. Your logic would be trying to maximize amino acids and fatty acids synthesis, while taking care of metabolism of glucose properly, aka fixing damaged metabolism? No doubt you've done some homework here, but i can't see the biotin part yet, as this posts sends me to school...

go on google and look up gluccogenisis and click on the link that says rpi.edu. Then start reading the whole thing hope that helps. Go on wiki and look up all the terms you dont understand and go on from there. After that i suggest you research the most you can on keto acids and amino acids that are able to be converted to glucose. Im sorry i cant just give you links its a combination of my laptop always crashing when i open a new window and me just not really remembering all the links of the top of my head.

danthethinningman wrote:just noticed i forgot to mention was that malate dehydrogenase is a niacin dependent enzyme wich also is required to sythesize oxaloacetate. Also beebrox what is your exp with b6?

I take p5p and basic B6 everyday with extra Mg, Zn, b2, b3, sulfuric and proteinic foods; with idea to have my detox pathways open. There are other b's i take, but not not in higher dosages. As for it goes for biotin - I take it with eggs and foods only. There is obviously i could have done more, but it's where my body receive benefits. I have high pyrolles, if this tells you anything.

Beebrox wrote:

danthethinningman wrote:just noticed i forgot to mention was that malate dehydrogenase is a niacin dependent enzyme wich also is required to sythesize oxaloacetate. Also beebrox what is your exp with b6?

I take p5p and basic B6 everyday with extra Mg, Zn, b2, b3, sulfuric and proteinic foods; with idea to have my detox pathways open. There are other b's i take, but not not in higher dosages. As for it goes for biotin - I take it with eggs and foods only. There is obviously i could have done more, but it's where my body receive benefits. I have high pyrolles, if this tells you anything.

what does the B6 do for you exactly? Every time ive tried it i always get worsening of all hair loss and thyroid symtoms. I find it gives me biotin deficiency symptoms. I havent tried it recently since i started biotin but im reluctant to do so. Any ideas of what might be the issue the last time i tried it?

danthethinningman wrote:
what does the B6 do for you exactly? Every time ive tried it i always get worsening of all hair loss and thyroid symtoms. I find it gives me biotin deficiency symptoms. I havent tried it recently since i started biotin but im reluctant to do so. Any ideas of what might be the issue the last time i tried it?

It supports homocysteine breakdown and support detox pathways through sulfation, glutathione and taurine.

This is worth investigating if B6 is problem - go to CBS... Taking any molydbenum and boron?

http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm

[quote="Beebrox"]

danthethinningman wrote:
what does the B6 do for you exactly? Every time ive tried it i always get worsening of all hair loss and thyroid symtoms. I find it gives me biotin deficiency symptoms. I havent tried it recently since i started biotin but im reluctant to do so. Any ideas of what might be the issue the last time i tried it?

It supports homocysteine breakdown and support detox pathways through sulfation, glutathione and taurine.

This is worth investigating if B6 is problem - go to CBS... Taking any molydbenum and boron?

Okay  so i got a question for you, since b6 stimulates cbs can i be further exaberating a low level of homocysteine or methione? It appears to me that cystathionine has to be adaquetly supplied for b6 to do its job, am i wrong? i dont take any of those supplements.

You wish to deal with elevated, if elevated, homocysteine in all the three ways - b12, b9 (folate) and p5p.

So my logic says - yes. in order to get p5p going, you need plenty of methyionine. It's not primary tool to fight homocysteine as there is plenty different types of homocysteine, but primary tool to get to the glutathione, taurine, etc. However if you cant tolerate it ok, there might be problem that requires other B's, not b6.

I would lie if i would say i see those things through. Have a read of how complicated it might be. For some even genetic tests don't tell much... The way i see it is to try and error until you think you find something that is working, rather than follow the theory that ''this should be working''.

http://metabolichealing.com/metabolic-gateways-cbs-gene-mutations-glutathione/

Well from research it seems that what you say is correct. To properly metabolize methionine one needs methyl b12 wich I supplement occasionally, folate an p5p. I assume from intuition that homocysteine isn't nessisarily the bad guy since its only a problem if it gets to high. It's to say the more methionine, the more p5p one needs. If p5p is high and methionine is low then I guess that's were problems occur since SAMe will get depleted and wouldn't be synthesized until more methionine is provided. What do you think?

http://books.google.com/books?id=lpDnHvMOsTcC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=Biotin+transport+in+human+intestine:+site+of+maximum+transport+and+effect+of+pH&source=bl&ots=o-snENknWW&sig=w7Ub91ry_UHUj053wi-elszpr0U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1xISU4yjMeH4yAG0r4GACg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Biotin%20transport%20in%20human%20intestine%3A%20site%20of%20maximum%20transport%20and%20effect%20of%20pH&f=false

^ Compilation of a lot of research on the water-soluble vitamins. One interesting thing was the inhibition of absorption by intestinal inflammation. I also thought the deficiency of biotin in sebhorreic dermatitis was very interesting.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/137/1/25.abstract

^ Biotin has an important role in iron metabolism.

danthethinningman wrote:Well from research it seems that what you say is correct. To properly metabolize methionine one needs methyl b12 wich I supplement occasionally, folate an p5p. I assume from intuition that homocysteine isn't nessisarily the bad guy since its only a problem if it gets to high. It's to say the more methionine, the more p5p one needs. If p5p is high and methionine is low then I guess that's were problems occur since SAMe will get depleted and wouldn't be synthesized until more methionine is provided. What do you think?

You could be supplementing also SAMe, and it's what somebody do. Basically agree with the others, but would not suggesting overdosing with any of this stuff. There are also horror stories by those who think they found what they need, untill their story gone downwards...

Nice find, AS54.

I always knew biotin had a relationship with iron, just never had proof. What I do know is you need enough biotin to start up the adrenal hormone cascade along side b5 so it wouldn't be to surprising to be true.

Guys I wanna update on my improvement and I'm glad to let you guys know that I'm seeing some fuzzy kinda of regrowth all overt head and when I touch in it kinda feels fuzzy and fine. My hair is deff gonna look a lot better next month!

What if you already have low blood pressure, like I do, and start with niacin? Will it low it even more?