Why does only the hair on the top of our heads succumb to bad diet/ DHT/ MPB?assfrus

^this.

I think this thread has become seriously derailed.

Let's focus on the question at hand.... Why don't we bald anywhere but the galea region.

I can only see two options..

1. Somehow the follicles in this area are different. I don't see any. Evidence to prove this, not to mention it sounds ridiculous

2. The galea's growing environment is different. Now this makes sense. Bad circulation, tight scalp, in the EXACT shape as MPB. When coupled with the fact that DHT only becomes a problem under low oxygen conditions, this theory is hard to deny.

Surely you see where I'm coming from, right?

dudebro wrote:
as much as i don't want to get in the middle of this lol... the temporal region in terms of facial anatomy refers to the sides of your head above your ears where guys DO NOT BALD i.e. non balding... slowmoe is right. lol temporal does not equal temples, that is frontal area.

they're don't BALD but they thin for sure. You mean to tell me that area on your scalp still has the same thickness hair that you had when you were 16?

Moby, you join this forum to convince everyone that circulation doesnt play a role? Why? Does the idea bother you that much?

They compared the full, non balding temporal regions of both MPB and non MPB. The areas experiencing no loss had 20% less oxygen in the balding group. That proves that even the non balding portions of the scalp in those with MPB is at a loss of oxygen. SI no, it is not caused by hair loss; this points to the fact that it is indeed A cause.

SlowMoe how is the maliniak massage working for you?

Sofar it works very well for me, when I get inflammation (pain, itch, burn) in the
front I do the forehead and temple massage and it goes away! .. Pretty nice. I also
focus on not touching my hair all the time, I used to do that excessively.

moby wrote:
they're don't BALD but they thin for sure. You mean to tell me that area on your scalp still has the same thickness hair that you had when you were 16?

actually yeah.. the thickness of my temporal and occipital area i.e. sides and back have not thinned whatsoever. keep in mind i was 16 only 4 years ago and i am fairly fit. i have been balding slowly for 7 years... its just as horribly bad as you would imagine however still i could say it could be a lot worse. granted i was on rogaine for the whole time until a month ago. back to the point my sides never changed, not even a bit.

before brushing my scalp was tight and very shiny. since i starting brushing my scalp actually moves when i massage it. when i wiggle my ears, i can now see my entire scalp moving; there is also so much less oil on my scalp too.

SlowMoe wrote:Moby, you join this forum to convince everyone that circulation doesnt play a role? Why? Does the idea bother you that much?

I have been lurking on this forum forever actually

SlowMoe wrote:
They compared the full, non balding temporal regions of both MPB and non MPB. The areas experiencing no loss had 20% less oxygen in the balding group. That proves that even the non balding portions of the scalp in those with MPB is at a loss of oxygen. SI no, it is not caused by hair loss; this points to the fact that it is indeed A cause.

Transcutaneous PO2 also was significantly lower in the frontal scalp of male pattern baldness subjects
Transcutaneous PO2 also was significantly lower in the frontal scalp of male pattern baldness subjects
Transcutaneous PO2 also was significantly lower in the frontal scalp of male pattern baldness subjects

subjects were NW2+ which means that there was less hair to begin with

cpio wrote:
SlowMoe how is the maliniak massage working for you?

Sofar it works very well for me, when I get inflammation (pain, itch, burn) in the
front I do the forehead and temple massage and it goes away! .. Pretty nice. I also
focus on not touching my hair all the time, I used to do that excessively.

I dont do the malinik Method, just massage, brush, inversion, ginkgo, zx42.

And yeah, it is working FAST. It looks like all of the vellus hairs on my scalp have turned terminal and many are twice as thick as they were 3 months ago. 3 months of manual methods, 2 months of zx42.

moby wrote:

SlowMoe wrote:Moby, you join this forum to convince everyone that circulation doesnt play a role? Why? Does the idea bother you that much?

I have been lurking on this forum forever actually

SlowMoe wrote:
They compared the full, non balding temporal regions of both MPB and non MPB. The areas experiencing no loss had 20% less oxygen in the balding group. That proves that even the non balding portions of the scalp in those with MPB is at a loss of oxygen. SI no, it is not caused by hair loss; this points to the fact that it is indeed A cause.

Transcutaneous PO2 also was significantly lower in the frontal scalp of male pattern baldness subjects
Transcutaneous PO2 also was significantly lower in the frontal scalp of male pattern baldness subjects
Transcutaneous PO2 also was significantly lower in the frontal scalp of male pattern baldness subjects

subjects were NW2+ which means that there was less hair to begin with

You are wrong, sorry. They refer to the temporal area as the "hair bearing scalp". There was no hair loss, but less circulation.


At the top of the scalp, I will admit, it could be either way. But keep un mind, they are neasureing tissue oxygen levels, not blood flow. So even if there was less hair, there shouldn't be an oxygen defficiency unless the cardiovascular system wasn't working properly.

We can go in circles all day, and not accomplish anything. I will continue to force blood to my scalp, and continue to regrow bald areas of my scalp. That is my proof that I am thinking the right way. Believe what you want.

fine try whatever you want even though you're also taking other supplements besides solely doing "circulation exercises"

oh and by the way: when minox was discovered to grow hair, they tried a bunch of other VASOLIDATORS and found that they couldn't grow hair. We now know why minox is special - it increases levels of PGE2 which is responsible for proper hair cycling. Nothing to do with circulation again.

I'm not bashing this forum but just a couple of theories that just refuse to die!

moby wrote:fine try whatever you want even though you're also taking other supplements besides solely doing "circulation exercises"

oh and by the way: when minox was discovered to grow hair, they tried a bunch of other VASOLIDATORS and found that they couldn't grow hair. We now know why minox is special - it increases levels of PGE2 which is responsible for proper hair cycling. Nothing to do with circulation again.

I'm not bashing this forum but just a couple of theories that just refuse to die!

Believe what you want, but what is fucked up is how people like you lurk these forums, and destroy peoples faith regarding issues that may be able to help them, instead of letting them try for themselves.

^ agreed

Slowmoe you'll probably like these links.. But once again I feel like hair loss is caused by different reasons for different people with the similar out come of inflammation and reduced capillary health.

http://www.worldhairresearch.com/?p=544
http://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/Fulltext/2010/11000/Treatment_of_Male_Pattern_Baldness_with_Botulinum.79.aspx
http://www.hairlossbuddy.com/21/sleep-apnea/

Bam! I knew it. Good find man.

That explains why we bald on the tops of our heads.

If it wasn't for the tight galea region, hair loss would be similar to other areas of the scalp.... Little to none.
However, since te galea region will never be as favorable as the sides of te head, obviously we need to seek different angles of attack.

Treatment of Male Pattern Baldness with Botulinum Toxin: A Pilot Study
Freund, Brian J. D.D.S., M.D.; Schwartz, Marvin D.D.S., M.Sc.

Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery . 126(5):246e-248e, November 2010.
doi: 10.1097/PRS.0b013e3181ef816d

Author Information

Crown Institute; Pickering, Ontario, Canada

Correspondence to Dr. Freund, 49 Main Street South, Uxbridge, Ontario L9P 1J4, Canada, freund@crowninstitute.com

This clinical trial has been registered as “Treatment of Male Pattern Baldness with Botulinum Toxin” at http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ClinicalTrials.gov with identifier NCT00965640.

Article Outline | Back to Top
Sir:


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We would like to present the results of an open-label pilot study using botulinum toxin type A (Botox; Allergan, Inc., Irvine, Calif.) for the treatment of androgenetic alopecia. This form of alopecia is believed to be caused by a genetically predisposed sensitivity of hair follicles to the toxic effects of dihydrotestosterone, a metabolite of testosterone. Medical treatment of androgenetic alopecia has previously only been moderately effective using systemic drugs such as finasteride, a 5α-reductase inhibitor.1

In this ethically approved study, 50 male subjects aged between 19 and 57 years with Norwood/Hamilton ratings of II to IV participated.2 The study was 60 weeks in duration, with 12 weeks of run-in followed by two treatment cycles of 24 weeks each. Subjects were injected with 150 units of Botox (5 units per 0.1 ml saline) into the muscles surrounding the scalp, including frontalis, temporalis, periauricular, and occipitalis muscles in equally divided doses over 30 injection sites. The primary outcome measure was a change in hair count in a fixed 2-cm area using a method described by Canfield.3 Secondary outcome measures included hair loss, measured by having subjects collect loose hair from their pillow with a sticky lint roller, and subjective efficacy using a validated questionnaire. Statistical analysis entailed paired t tests of group means.

Forty subjects completed the study, and no adverse effects were reported. The treatment response rate was 75 percent. Mean hair counts for the entire group showed a statistically significant (p < 0.0001) increase of 18 percent between baseline and week 48 (Table 1), similar to the results reported with Propecia (Merck, Whitehouse Station, N.J.).1 Hair regrowth was objectively visible in some subjects (Fig. 1). Secondary outcome measures were also significantly improved. The reduction in hair loss and increase in hair count did not show a statistically significant correlation. This suggested that longer retention of terminal hairs did not account for the increase in hair count.


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Mechanistically, the scalp behaves like a drum skin with tensioning muscles around the periphery. These muscle groups—the frontalis, occipitalis, and periauricular muscles and to a minor degree the temporalis—can create a “tight” scalp when chronically active. Because the blood supply to the scalp enters through the periphery, a reduction in blood flow would be most apparent at the distal ends of the vessels, specifically, the vertex and frontal peaks. Areas of the scalp with sparse hair growth have been shown to be relatively hypoxic, have slow capillary refill, and to have high levels of dihydrotestosterone.4

Conceptually, Botox “loosens” the scalp, reducing pressure on the perforating vasculature, thereby increasing blood flow and oxygen concentration. The enzymatic conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is oxygen dependent. In low-oxygen environments, the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is favored; whereas in high-oxygen environments, more testosterone is converted to estradiol.4 Blood flow may therefore be a primary determinant in follicular health. Strategically placed Botox injections appear able to indirectly modify this variable, resulting in reduced hair loss and new hair growth in some men with androgenetic alopecia.

oh god why are they wasting time on such useless experiments.

Botulinum is a strong anti-inflammatory. Inflammation does restrict circulation somewhat. Problem?

Instead of rubbing your scalp, just start taking using a strong anti-inflammatory(topically) and you will get your results.

moby wrote:oh god why are they wasting time on such useless experiments.

Botulinum is a strong anti-inflammatory. Inflammation does restrict circulation somewhat. Problem?

Instead of rubbing your scalp, just start taking using a strong anti-inflammatory(topically) and you will get your results.

But circulation has been debunked.

SlowMoe wrote:

moby wrote:oh god why are they wasting time on such useless experiments.

Botulinum is a strong anti-inflammatory. Inflammation does restrict circulation somewhat. Problem?

Instead of rubbing your scalp, just start taking using a strong anti-inflammatory(topically) and you will get your results.

But circulation has been debunked.

fine do whatever you want your results will be invalid anyways since you're using a bunch of other stuff INCLUDING MINOXIDIL

moby wrote:

SlowMoe wrote:

moby wrote:oh god why are they wasting time on such useless experiments.

Botulinum is a strong anti-inflammatory. Inflammation does restrict circulation somewhat. Problem?

Instead of rubbing your scalp, just start taking using a strong anti-inflammatory(topically) and you will get your results.

But circulation has been debunked.

fine do whatever you want your results will be invalid anyways since you're using a bunch of other stuff INCLUDING MINOXIDIL

I couldn't care less about validity as long as I regrow my hair.

All I wanted to do was clarify why we balded up top, not on the sides. Mission accomplished. I am convinced.

You made yourself look a like a moby dick mate

Who let that dick in here

SlowMoe wrote:
All I wanted to do was clarify why we balded up top, not on the sides. Mission accomplished. I am convinced.

I'm thinning on the sides too. So do most people. How would you explain that?

schpiloch123 wrote:You made yourself look a like a moby dick mate

really? Where am I wrong?

lol i am getting botox shots in the scalp first thing in the morning haha. interesting pilot study though.. conceptually makes sense with what most of us brushers are doing. i wondering how much more effective scalp brushing is to botulinum in oxygenating the area? botox takes 48 weeks and an 18% increase in hair count.. which isn't bad but i imagine mechanical techniques/exercising could outmuscle the chemical.

i feel like unless you are on minox, the hair cycle kind of has to begin all over again like day one when you were a baby. Brushing caused me to shed tremendously in conjunction with stopping minox after 4 years.. but it leaves a barely noticeable bed of very fine hairs. Through this stage, I feel like you gotta stay strong because even though it looks worse, its slowly getting better.

the problem with manual methods is that they are hard to market for money LONG TERM.. if a year from now this works moby should be required to go suck one.

dudebro wrote:if a year from now this works moby should be required to go suck one.

agreed. Now go back ten years ago and see all those circulation theories with no results once again.

I gave my argument as to why it wouldn't work and how circulation is not even an issue here but you're free to try it anyways I can't stop you

moby wrote:

dudebro wrote:if a year from now this works moby should be required to go suck one.

agreed. Now go back ten years ago and see all those circulation theories with no results once again.

I gave my argument as to why it wouldn't work and how circulation is not even an issue here but you're free to try it anyways I can't stop you

Studies debunking circulation are...well....bunk.
Oxygen has everything to do with hair growth, and there's only one thing that carries oxygen to the hair.......uhm