IH >> a plea for help despite the fact that much has been said already.

Hi IH,

I think you'll recognize me from the many email discussions we've had in the not so distant past (mid-summer or so).

Just so you know what's been going on overall, I'll provide you with a brief overview :

I think I'd told you that I was going back to college at some point--being a lab technician caused me to be too secluded from people, and decided to get a bachelor's degree in nursing. It's keeping me incredibly busy though--I may have bitten more than I can chew under the ongoing circumstances. I like my new project, yet it's a lot of work, and going back to college at age 36 in and of itself is a good challenged, to say nothing of the amount of homework assignment I get on top of keeping up some semblance of life back home. Despite being a good deal of work I enjoy it.


This week is a reading week, so this is basically the only time I have where I can interact to some extent with you and others on this board or any board for that matter.

Now let's get to the heart of the matter, since it's exactly why I decided to sit down and type this out.

The most annoying symptoms over the last 10 years (yes, 10 years is a heck of a long time) has been no arousal, or anticipatory pleasure to sex, which I call sex drive. Anything that can adversely affect a man's potency or fonctionning as we all know can in and of itself be depressing enough.

While bringing this issue up again with my primary care physician last summer, it looked to me like he felt I was belaboring the point, and that'd be quite right. Obviously, I first tried getting help from local physicians as it is the right thing for anyone to do. However local M.Ds have failed to uncover anything wrong with me, except for ADHD and General Anxiety Disorder, Gilbert's Syndrome, and an early varicocele.

A few years ago, I gave Deprenyl a whack, to no avail. I thought it might help given it's known to boost libido through it's selective MAO-B inhibition at 10 or less mg/day. That is, boosting Dopamine--I was Jumex, which course lasted for 3 weeks. First and second week, I was on 2.5 mg twice a week, while I increased dosage to be 5 mg twice a week on the last week. All it did was to increase my focus a little, but it actually caused what little sex drive I had then to vanish into thin air 20 minutes after popping half a Deprenyl pill.


I've then looked for any relevant information possibly connection Gilbert's Syndrome to low sex drive, but I wasn't fruitful, except that I found out that the same enzyme lacking in Gilbert's patients : UGT1A1, also is the same enzyme metabolizing some estrogens. I thought there might be a connection there, but have failed to uncover anything worthy of mention. So I gave up on this lead.


One ER doc who also doubles as an anti-aging doc looked at my many blood test results, and only thing that caught his attention was the normal low 24-hour urinary cortisol essay. He prescribed Hydrocortisone at 5 mg QID, which I found to be quite a high dose to start with. I refused to embark on it, because I, along with my internist were quite worried of the possible risk, so that anti-aging doc got mad like there was no tomorrow, and dumped me so to say. However he may very well have been right all along, since cortisol is required for GABA's precursor : Allepregnenolone and Cortisol is also needed to stimulate Dopamine in the brain's pleasure centers : the mesolimbic region. So I thought this would make sense. What's more, my internist made it clear to me that most of the time a single low urinary cortisol reading is meaningless until an ACTH (Synacthen) test is performed, so this cast doubts in my mind with regard to that normal low reading I had.


Now, at this point one may think we're dealing with AF, and I too used to think so, however when I had a 4-points Cortisol saliva essay 3 years ago, at the worst of my symptoms, my results came back being fine. That was at a time where my symptoms were a good deal worst then they're now, so there's been some progress as regard overall energy, but libido only picked up a little over the last year, and I started waking up to morning woods again--not on each and every morning but still, I have them more now than I used to for 9 straight years.

I've been trying to locate yet another M.D. in the next cites, one who's remained a man of science and is willing to really dig deeper in order to find out what's been wrong. I'm seeing my pcp tomorrow in order to try and get a list of such M.D.s although I'm convinced they're few and far between.

My TSH is consistently 2.0 or slightly up. I seem to recall that this slight elevation which according to some authorities is indicative of mild hypothyroidism or subclinical low thyroid.

Most of the time I'm quite bloated, and this has caused me to wonder why ? Could I somehow not be producing enough HCL ?

While I know that urinary cortisol was low, at least the one and only time I had it done, my serum cortisol values hover around normal high. I'm aware that urinary is free cortisol and thus should predominate over any serum value, but still, even an endocrinologist friend of mine has told me that I cannot have adrenal fatigue since my serum values are normal high. He believes in adrenal fatigue and has read Jeffrey's book : ''Safe use of Cortisol'', but he says what I have looks more like adrenal stress than fatigue because I usually have much energy over the whole day. As evidence, I've resumed weight lifting for over 5 months now and have been doing well, that is, I have enough stamina to go through my 40 minutes workouts (weight lifting followed by HIIT cardio).

However, I've hurt my left shoulder and right thumb and healing or quelling of inflammation doesn't seem to be happening--I'm thinking again that I may not be producing enough cortisol.


I'm trying to put this all together myself through your help IH. I think having spent a few years in a lab has made me bent on getting laboratory evidence for what it is I've been having. I'm hoping to find a doc who will put the finger on what's been wrong with evidence to show for it. On the other hand, I've also been thinking that it may be deluding myself to think that such a doc will manage to find out what's been the matter through any lab test.


My internist (whom I'll be seeing in two weeks time, and who's quite a nice and humble guy) has been telling me that for as long as I have anxiety, libido will stay down, however a friend of mine whom I know used to have VERY severe/morbid anxiety issues, has told me that over that period of time his sex drive never faltered one bit. I recall when I was 20 or so, I was quite on edge at times and anxious too, and my sex drive was through the roof, so there's something wrong with blaming low sex drive on anxiety, I mean it doesn't seem to be bringing about the same type of outcome for everyone.


So far as to what supplements I've tried, here's a list :

Vitamin C (have tried all forms) : most of the time even at 2000 mg/day doesn't help with sex drive

Magnesium has helped though it's not consistent at all--most of the time it doesn't boost sex drive.

Cocconut oil has caused my bloating to go down a little, but I'm careful with it's use since I know of two guys : first saw his LDL go up while the second has seen his calcium plaque score go up.

Theanine used to do something at first, but it's stopped working for some reason.

I'm so very puzzled and tired of all this. I'm not one to give up easily, but in the recent times, It's crossed my mind.

I don't know what my post comes across, but I'm a desperate man trying to regain his sex drive--being in a relationship without any is hell....

Kind regards and thanks in advance for any suggestions.

chipdouglas - TSH over 2.0? You're probably low thyroid. Adrenal fatigue? I think so.

Low testosterone could be a significant factor here. If I were you, I would immediately embark on the Standard Process methodology of rebuilding your adrenals.

Let me explain with some history to gets some perspective on this issue. In the 1930's an extract from animal adrenal glands called Cortin was injected into patients. This glandular extract was a simple way to introduce all the important hormones back into the body, such as cortisol, cortisone, DHEA, aldosterone, and everything else in it's natural balance. Cortin was also called Adrenal Cortical Extract, or ACE.

Long story shorter, is the Federal Death Association here in the states (FDA), agrees to make something illegal--a perfectly natural substance is now banned from being injected into patients. So, Cortin was now illegal and yet it was perfectly safe, but certain pharmaceutical companies came up with their own synthetic versions of cortisol and as history shows, synthetic molecules have a way of being favored, despite their risks.

Instead of breaking the law and injecting oneself with adrenal extracts, taking them orally, is an excellent and effective way to build back up the system.

I've mentioned before that iodine is linked with ADHD, that is a lack of iodine to be specific. It's not always that simple and there are other factors, such as metal toxicity, digestive, enzyme and food allergy possibilities. Also there potential shortage of phospholipids, etc.

This page, here in several sections will apply to your situation. All the Standard Process products are listed on this page.

http://www.freewebs.com/immortalhair/physiology.htm

In time, you can rebalance the thyroid, pituitary, adrenals which will help a lot, especially when taken along with iodine. Checking for testosterone is important also.

Having mentioned metal toxicity, if one were to have even a mild lead toxicity that will affect your hormones. Some indication of lead poisoning is less than average height for example.

Tests are far from conclusive and "modern medicine" is far from getting their bearings on what is really happening in the human body. Most physicians are 40 years back wards, because their training and even current education reinforces old myths. It's important to understand that only 25% of modern medicine is actually proven to work, the remaining 75% is not.

Back to cortisol, I think it's better to use glandular extracts, such as Standard Process or even something basic like this
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=6009&at=0
can help a person recover. It's better to get the whole complex of hormones in a balanced form instead of guessing which of what or how much to add.

"Modern medicine" is really compartmentalized medicine. The details removes the big picture and it is too easy to get lost in the details, which clouds the obvious.

As far as tests are concerned, the most important ones revolve around allergies, metal toxicity, urine tests for hormones, basal temperature. There are others, but it gets tricky when you get into minutia, since there are several types of tests to quantify something. Nothing is ever black or white in this regard, it is subject to the interpreter.

On digestion, consider adding a good probiotic such as Jarrow's EPS or Dr. Ohirra's Probiotic 12 Plus. This will help with bloating etc.

Hopefully you're taking something like Krill oil for your omega-3, the phospholipids are needed for ADHD in a very important way.

Once again, I must thank you a lot for your great patience. Don't get me wrong, I'm a nice guy, and I know that you know, but I get so disorganized at times, that I get lost in my own train of thoughts and mostly obsessed with finding the root cause. However, the most likely explanations are those your listed above, since nothing else could be uncovered through modern medecine testing.

Above I forgot to mention one important thing : Zinc

Of all the supplements I've tried Zinc is definately the one standing out. When I have zinc libido goes up noticeably which takes about 2 days time, if I hadn't been taking zinc for a while.

I even saw a neuropsychologist for a few consultations, whom found nothing basically wrong with me except for an obsessive personality, but he did say it was at the personality level, so not something of real clinical significance. He found me to be rigorous quite a bit, which in some way is good. He also found me to have above average cognitive abilities.

Now my thinking has been like so : I've been thinking that since Zinc makes a noticeable effect on my sex drive, this might be indicative of something, but what ? The effect is pretty fast, we're talking a few days only before it kicks in. Zinc is soothing, but so is Mg, though Mg doesn't boost my sex drive. I think Zinc has something to do with Ach too, right ?

Many have raised the following issue : if you libido was low or non-existent, then you wouldn't ever care about it--I must admit this makes sense, so this has lead me to wonder whether it is libido or arousal that I'm lacking of ?

What do you think ?

Thanks IH

Regarding Zinc:

Your pituitary gland releases two hormones, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH)––both of which are necessary to stimulate the production of testosterone. If you’re not getting enough zinc, your pituitary gland won’t release LH and FSH, and you’ll end up with too little testosterone, moreover it allows you to hold on to what you've already produced by way of inhibiting aromatase. You may have copper and zinc imbalances. Accumulating estrogen keeps too much copper, depleting zinc stores.

When testing testosterone and thyroid hormone, what kind of ballpark should we be getting in if we are in the mid-20's?

Is something wrong if I have low total testosterone and high free testosterone? I think I might have adrenal fatigue, but I don't want to take that thyroid hormone because I was told my thyroid hormone was average.

Thanks

Espio - Do you have your thyroid numbers? TSH, T4, T3?

"Normal" isn't always normal when it comes to the thyroid. A quick test you can do at home is a basal temperature test.
This involves placing a thermometer underneath the armpit before rising in the morning. Hold it there for 15 minutes, record the temperature and do this for about three days in a row. Temperatures below 97.8 a possible sign of low thyroid function.

The "thyroid replacement" discussed in this context is not thyroid hormone from the doctor, but rather it is a glandular. This does not require a prescription. It can be used temporarily until the whole HPTA is back in full gear.

A high free testosterone in a young person is indicative of low SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin). The way to lower that is to take the "top 6" which will help normalize it. The idea is to improve glucose metabolism, which will help normalize SHBG levels.

I take zinc supplements and haven't noticed a great difference to my body. Been taking them for 10 months now.

CausticSymmetry wrote:Regarding Zinc:

Your pituitary gland releases two hormones, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH)––both of which are necessary to stimulate the production of testosterone. If you’re not getting enough zinc, your pituitary gland won’t release LH and FSH, and you’ll end up with too little testosterone, moreover it allows you to hold on to what you've already produced by way of inhibiting aromatase. You may have copper and zinc imbalances. Accumulating estrogen keeps too much copper, depleting zinc stores.

Thanks IH,

Below, you'll find my lastest blood work. GH is quite low, although I keep hearing a single reading alone isn't telling, because of the pulsatile nature of GH. Total Testosterone doesn't appear to be the reason I have no libido, at least once converted to ng/dl I get 521 ng/dl, which is mid-range. Morning serum cortisol value is normal high, yet it's not a good indicator since it doesn't only measure free cortisol. TSH is a little high to my licking. Let's keep in mind that I'm on t he look out for anything that could very explain the reason I've had no libido for that long a time, with the exception of some improvement over the last year. In the below blood work, do you see anything that could provide a clear explanation to my having had no sex drive ?

Since my LH/FSH both appear to be doing fine, what is your second guess as to why Zinc is working ? I've on a few occasions that Zinc is beneficial to the adrenals, but how ?


Fibrinogen (non-anticoagulted) : 2.4 (2.0 - 3. g/L

Cortisol (8 AM) : 622 (160 - 700) nmol/L

Hb1AC : 0.050 (0.047 - 0.060) Interpretation : ideal glycemic control.

Anti-TPO : 11 (Negative : <45) kU/L
(dubious : 45-65)
(positive : >65)


TSH : 2.46 (euthyr :0.27 - 5.00) mUI/L
(hypothyr. : > 5.00)
(hyperthyr.: < 0.01)



FT4 : 18.9 (12.0 - 22.0) pmol/L


LH : 4 (follicular phase : 2 - 13) U/L
(mid-cycle phase : 14 - 96)
(luteal phase : 1 - 11)
(men : 2 - 9)


Ferritin : 236 (50 - 250) ug/L

SHBG : 25.3 (11.0 - 63.0) nmol/L


H. pylori : Negative

Progesterone : 4.3 men <4 nmol/L

DHEA-S : 12.3 (7.2 - 12.5) umol/L

IFG-1 (Somatomedin) : 23.4 (14.0 - 37.09) nmol/L

Insulin : 64 (30 - 90) pmol/L

Growth Hormone : < 0.1 (0.0 - 9.9) pmol/L

Vitamin D (25 OH) : 38 (30 - 125)

Total T3 (aka T3 and FT3 according to www.labtestonline.com) : 1.9 (0.9 - 2. nmol/L

Estradiol-17 B : 114 men : 42 - 151 pmol/L

Testosterone : 18.1 (8.4 - 28.7) nmol/L

Homocysteine : 9.5 (3.7 - 13.9) umol/L

**an Homocysteine value >15 umol/L is a risk factor for cardiovascular diseases according to The American society of human genetics and The American college of medical genetics. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 63: 1541 - 1543, 1998




===========================================================================================================================

Chemistry

Glucose (overnight fast) : 5.3 (4.2 - 6.1) mmol/L
serum creatine : 77 (62 - 106) umol/L
Sodium : 140 (136 - 145) mmol/L
Potassium (plasma) : 3.7 (3.4 - 4. mmol/L
Choride : 99 (98 - 109) mmol/L
AST : 18 (0 - 37) U/L
ALT : 20 (0 - 41) U/L
Gamma GT : 14 (10 - 66) U/L
Total Bilirubin : 30 (3 - 22) umol/L
Direct Bilirubin : 4 (0 - 7) umol/L
Uric Acid : 425 (255 - 460) umol/L

C-reactive Protein (ultra sensitive essay) : 0.9 (0.0 - 5.0) mg/L

Cholesterol : 4.8 (2.0 - 5.2) mmol/L
Tryglycerides : 0.9 (0.5 - 2.0) mmol/L
HDL cholesterol : 1.58 (1.00 - 2.60) mmol/L
LDL cholesterol : 2.8 (2.0 - 3.4) mmol/L
Total/HDL cholesterol : 3.0
============================================================================================================================

Hematology

Leucocytes : 4.8 X10 (9)/L (4.0 - 12.0)
Erythrocytes : 5.32 X10 (12)/L (4.40 - 6.00)
Hemoglobin : 161 G/L (140 - 180)
Hematocrit : 0.469 ( 0.420 - 0.520)
CGMH : 343 G/L (320 - 365)
VGM : 88 f/L (80- 100)
TGMH : 30.3 pg (27.0 - 34.0)
IDE : 12.1 (10.5 - 16.0)
Platelets : 245.0 X10(9)/L (120.0 - 400.0)
VPM : 7.5 fL (7.0 - 10.4)


Automated leucocyte count



Relative value Absolute value


Neutrophils 0.524 2.5 (1.4 - 6.5)
Lymphocytes 0.312 1.5 (1.2 -3.4)
Monocytes 0.081 0.4 (0.1 -0.
Eosinophils 0.079 0.4 (0.0 -0.7)
Basophils 0.004 0.0 (0.0 -0.2)

Just so you know, the number that should be taking the place of the smiley faces is 8. Sorry about that really.

Chip, it might help finding out if you're an undermethylator or an overmethylator... Probably an undermethylator. Histamines and methylation can have a big affect on libido.

Check out where it sais "subtypes", Im not so sure the first "test" is that accurate.

http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/content/articles-content.php?heading=Major%20Mental%20Illness%20Biochemical%20Subtypes

TSH was 2.15
Testosterone was 653
Free testosterone was 143

This was before I started the IH supplements

Joejoebaggins wrote:Chip, it might help finding out if you're an undermethylator or an overmethylator... Probably an undermethylator. Histamines and methylation can have a big affect on libido.

Check out where it sais "subtypes", Im not so sure the first "test" is that accurate.

http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/content/articles-content.php?heading=Major%20Mental%20Illness%20Biochemical%20Subtypes

i've wondered about what you wrote above, as to whether or not it has merit. Mainstream medecine doesn't seem to acknowledge this, but then there's a lot modern medecine is close minded to which has merit so...

Thanks for posting this info though, as this shows that you care, and that counts in my eyes.

I wonder whether the above applies to my case because my sex drive used to be quite strong before it slowly dropped to none at all. My point is : Can I still be undermethylated if my sex drive used to be raging back then ? Is this something you're born with in that one's sex drive has either always being strong or low ?

Cheers

Talk to hardasnails1973 on any board and he'll tell you methylation is real and so are histamines. Anyone will tell you that. Histamines have a direct effect on how intense an orgasm is. Getting methylation under control is critical for anyone who wants to acquire great health and have adequate sexual function.

That post wasn't some crack pot last medical hope, learning as much about it as possible is what has to a large extent got me my life back.

If you head over to Ironaddicts forum you can also check out the hundreds of posts by "trouble" who is another genius in this area. This might very well be the keys to your success Chip. Only you can decide if it has any merit or not haha.

Don't you post on musclechatroom? What doctors have you been to?

Joejoebaggins wrote:Talk to hardasnails1973 on any board and he'll tell you methylation is real and so are histamines. Anyone will tell you that. Histamines have a direct effect on how intense an orgasm is. Getting methylation under control is critical for anyone who wants to acquire great health and have adequate sexual function.

That post wasn't some crack pot last medical hope, learning as much about it as possible is what has to a large extent got me my life back.

If you head over to Ironaddicts forum you can also check out the hundreds of posts by "trouble" who is another genius in this area. This might very well be the keys to your success Chip. Only you can decide if it has any merit or not haha.

Don't you post on musclechatroom? What doctors have you been to?

Your story is interesting Joe. Further, while maintream medicine sneers at many of what is discussed on here and many other internet boards, they don't come up with any curative protocol either in some instances, so what is discussed here does have merit, and often times quite a bit of it. I know who Trouble is or rather was, since she vanished out of thin air, or simply changed nick.

Yep, I've posted on Musclechatroom a few times....yet another great place. I'll need to read up on over and undermethylation.

As regard the doctor I've been going to, oh man, this is a rather pitiful story, as I couldn't find any doc like Dr. John or his type of practitioners around here--I'm in Canada. Around here, most docs follow the cookie cutter pattern, so whether you see one or another, won't make any difference. I'm obviously going to do what IH has been telling me to, because this is something which makes much sense to me--why I haven't carried it out until now is a mystery even to me. I feel motivated within, yet it takes a heck of a lot of effort for me to kinck into action if you will--so I guess my motivation isn't as strong as I think it is. I'm still going to see my internist again on October 28th. He's a very nice and humble outgoing fellow. I'll discuss with him some of what has been brought up here.

I don't know what I come across like, but rest assured that I'm always grateful for any info shared on here or elsewhere.

Cheers

chipdouglas - What JJB mentioned should definitely be checked out.

You might be interested to know that Ecklonia Cava (Fibroboost) could raise your GH levels, I would highly recommend it.

Have you tried sustained arginine such as Arginine alpha ketoglutarate or Arginine Pyroglutamate? Try a couple grams of that and see what happens.

Experimentation is really the key to success.

CausticSymmetry wrote:chipdouglas - What JJB mentioned should definitely be checked out.

You might be interested to know that Ecklonia Cava (Fibroboost) could raise your GH levels, I would highly recommend it.

Have you tried sustained arginine such as Arginine alpha ketoglutarate or Arginine Pyroglutamate? Try a couple grams of that and see what happens.

Experimentation is really the key to success.

Morning IH,

A few more question if I may :

Haven't tried any of the forms of arginine you posted, but I recall trying arginine HCL, which did increase my sex drive to a noticeable degree, but that was in daytime, so perhaps the effect was mostly through NO rather than GH ? I also recall that it caused me to experience some extrasystoles--it got me turned on quite a bit, so the rise in cathecolamines might explain the triggering of extrasystoles, since I've had those documented on two individual 48-hour Holter--there doesn't seem anything to worry about since there were no salvos and/or runs ; they're mostly supraventricular, with a few ventricular ones. There were also no mention of compensatory pause. I never get dizzy or have chest pain as a result. Only symptom is that flip-flop in the chest.

On Zinc : I had 10 mg this AM, and libido, yet mostly erection went up about an hour thereafter--doesn't zinc boost Ach ?

chipdouglas - The sustained versions I mentioned taken at high will boost the GH, but also definitely lots of nitric oxide. This is great for the heart, despite extrasystoles.

By ACh do you mean endothelium-dependent acetylcholine?

CausticSymmetry wrote:chipdouglas - The sustained versions I mentioned taken at high will boost the GH, but also definitely lots of nitric oxide. This is great for the heart, despite extrasystoles.

By ACh do you mean endothelium-dependent acetylcholine?

I meant plain Acetylcholine, but on second thought, it has to be in some specific brain region or elsewhere--I can't seem to recall where I read about it, but days ago I bumped into this info that Zinc has something to do with Ach.

On a side note, darn I've had low energy today--I had to work at making a few steps in the garage, and I'm so unproductive--it takes forever for me to do simple stuff. I feel slow witted and cognitively speaking fucked up. I still have lots of studying to do......my mental energy and motivation is nearly non-existent, that is, there's part of my brain that wants but I just don't have the energy to do it all. I also have inflammation brought about by weight lifting that just won't disappear. Not a good day for me today.

Cheers

chipdouglas - Have you had a chance to give the Lugol's solution a go?

I've seen a lot of "ADD" like symptoms disappear after using this stuff.

I don't believe Zinc will affect Ach, but I can do a double check on it to be sure.

CausticSymmetry wrote:chipdouglas - Have you had a chance to give the Lugol's solution a go?

I've seen a lot of "ADD" like symptoms disappear after using this stuff.

I don't believe Zinc will affect Ach, but I can do a double check on it to be sure.

I have Lugol's solution at home, and trust me, I feel pretty shameful to say that I was afraid I'd get more extrasystoles from it, which I'm much aware may not at all be justified. I'm pretty pathetic at times--I really have no idea why I'm this way, but I seriously get on my own nerves most of the time. I always know within what is the most logical thing to do, but for some reason, It takes me forever to take action. It's actually way beyond pathetic. Maybe it has to do with the ADHD, I guess it's somehow connected.

Most of the time, I have difficulty thinking clear, so that doesn't help either. The thing is it doesn't show in my grades in college as I get top0 scores, but I find that overall I'm not measuring up. It's very subtle, and I bet most everyone around me misses seeing this side of me.

One thing that been puzzling me quite a bit is what follows, and correct me if mistaken, since I'm here to learn :

If I had low libido as a result of adrenal fatigue, would I still get random spikes, or would my adrenals would have to slowly build back up for my sex drive to come alive again ?

I'm asking because, this AM I had zinc, and libido went up an hour or so thereafter, so can this stlll be adrenal fatigue under these conditions ?

I also recall months ago, I popped a vitex pill and I got amazingly horny (it's the horniness that I've been lacking to a great extent), so obviously, I had sex given I don't get the chance to enjoy it the way I did that one specific time. I then thought to myself that more vitex would might boost it some more, so I had yet another 250 mg but it actually did the complete opposite.

For what it's worth, Dr Eric Braverman in his first book list zinc as part of the serotonin boosting nutrients. I know that zinc mellows me out a good deal.

I've seen zinc, and even 5HTP boost my libido. I really really have a demanding personality, that's for darn certain. I keep raising the bar, and find I'm not doing enough within a day etc...I push myself really hard, so perhaps I'm lacking serotonin, actually, I have many telling symptoms of low serotonin, but I never thought lacking serotonin could kill my libido that much--what do you think ?

If the vitex was helping libido that probably means your low on dopamine. Who knows, you could be low on both serotonin and dopamine.

chipdouglass - I think you're on to something here. Before I get into that, I will address the iodine.

You might be surprised to learn that most inquisitive minded individuals like yourself who need iodine the most are the most reluctant to take it. It's not a surprise to me in the least, and there is nothing to be too upset about. It's an extremely common irony. I think we both know that "modern medicine" is to blame for this, because iodine is one of the safest, yet most maligned minerals on the planet.

Almost every doctor was told in medical school that iodine is supplied "abundantly" from iodized salt and from the ocean breezes. Also older research, which is not accurate suggested that "too much" iodine would present problems. However, in the 1800's and 1900's it was used ubiquitously, and in much greater amounts that we see today. The FDA, et al, has made acquiring iodine more difficult in recent years past. Consider that in the 1960's most foods which had flour in it, contained about a full milligram of iodine. Eventually, "they" feared that maybe that was too much, so bromide was used in its place. The problem with bromide is that it makes the thyroid "believe" it has enough iodine and blocks uptake of dietary iodine, creating a deficiency.

ADHD is often a direct result from lack of iodine. I have seen patients who have had difficulty focusing and concentrating, who can sometimes over think a situation, and once they start on iodine that begins to change.

Iodine is used to correct heart arrhythmia--but unfortunately, the toxic version called amiadorone is used by cardiologists instead of the real thing. Medical professionals and doctors alike easily confuse toxic products with natural products. They are trained right from the start to believe that "everything" is inherently toxic, so they treat everything as if it is potentially dangerous.

I would highly recommend that you read the works of Dr. Guy Abraham of UCLA and his work on Iodine and also the clinical experience of Dr. David Brownstein, as this might clear up confusion surrounding iodine. Remember, no one has ever died from iodine. It is absolutely safe to use.

Okay, now regarding the Vitex, which is also called Chasteberry. When you use low amounts, such as 120 milligrams or less, it suppresses dopamine release. When you take over 120 milligrams or more, you increase dopamine. Most people would want to increase their dopamine, but your system is different, and no doubt you have an imbalance of catecholamines with respect to dopamine and norepinephrine. Too much dopamine release would increase your heart rate and vice verse.

Since you had a negative reaction to Deprenyl, this would suggest that you need to suppress dopamine release and increase your seratonin. That would explain why you do well on 5-HTP. Normally, it is suggested to take Tyrosine with 5-HTP, but in your case, 5-HTP alone would be better. It's also a good idea to take B6 with 5-HTP.

CausticSymmetry wrote:chipdouglass - I think you're on to something here. Before I get into that, I will address the iodine.

You might be surprised to learn that most inquisitive minded individuals like yourself who need iodine the most are the most reluctant to take it. It's not a surprise to me in the least, and there is nothing to be too upset about. It's an extremely common irony. I think we both know that "modern medicine" is to blame for this, because iodine is one of the safest, yet most maligned minerals on the planet.

Almost every doctor was told in medical school that iodine is supplied "abundantly" from iodized salt and from the ocean breezes. Also older research, which is not accurate suggested that "too much" iodine would present problems. However, in the 1800's and 1900's it was used ubiquitously, and in much greater amounts that we see today. The FDA, et al, has made acquiring iodine more difficult in recent years past. Consider that in the 1960's most foods which had flour in it, contained about a full milligram of iodine. Eventually, "they" feared that maybe that was too much, so bromide was used in its place. The problem with bromide is that it makes the thyroid "believe" it has enough iodine and blocks uptake of dietary iodine, creating a deficiency.

ADHD is often a direct result from lack of iodine. I have seen patients who have had difficulty focusing and concentrating, who can sometimes over think a situation, and once they start on iodine that begins to change.

Iodine is used to correct heart arrhythmia--but unfortunately, the toxic version called amiadorone is used by cardiologists instead of the real thing. Medical professionals and doctors alike easily confuse toxic products with natural products. They are trained right from the start to believe that "everything" is inherently toxic, so they treat everything as if it is potentially dangerous.

I would highly recommend that you read the works of Dr. Guy Abraham of UCLA and his work on Iodine and also the clinical experience of Dr. David Brownstein, as this might clear up confusion surrounding iodine. Remember, no one has ever died from iodine. It is absolutely safe to use.

Okay, now regarding the Vitex, which is also called Chasteberry. When you use low amounts, such as 120 milligrams or less, it suppresses dopamine release. When you take over 120 milligrams or more, you increase dopamine. Most people would want to increase their dopamine, but your system is different, and no doubt you have an imbalance of catecholamines with respect to dopamine and norepinephrine. Too much dopamine release would increase your heart rate and vice verse.

Since you had a negative reaction to Deprenyl, this would suggest that you need to suppress dopamine release and increase your seratonin. That would explain why you do well on 5-HTP. Normally, it is suggested to take Tyrosine with 5-HTP, but in your case, 5-HTP alone would be better. It's also a good idea to take B6 with 5-HTP.

I'm a little cheered up this morning to see that apparently, I'm on to something.

I'm a in a rush right now, but a few things crossed my mind that may or may not help you help me :

When I have whey protein, I do not usually notice any benefit regarding libido or other. However (and I'd need to conduct this experiment again to make sure it's still valid) I recall that amino acid formulas I did get some benefits from libido wise.

Zinc sometimes calms me down very much and boosts my sex drive, while at other times, it increases anxiety and I then get lots of extrasystoles. I had half a chelated zinc tablet in the AM yesterday, which calmed me down and boosted sex drive, but then I had yet another half tablet in late evening and it brought on much anxiety and extrasystoles, and obvously there was no libido boost from it. It might have to do with the fact that I was tired or that I had half an orange juice glass prior to having the zinc--these are just conjectures and I'm much aware it may not at all be connected.

Also like I one of my very prominent symptom is I pass lots of gas, and obviously, I'm usually quite bloated. I started using coconut oil, and that decreased the bloating and gas by a heck of a lot. Even Olive oil seems to do this to lesser degree. I'm being careful with coconut oil, and this is not something I should indulge in for sure, but still the question is : why does having these fats decreases bloating ?

My girlfriend also noticed I've cut, or have more muscular definition for about a week, which is the time I started using coconut oil....well maybe I started two weeks ago instead...

On Deprenyl, I need to provide you with some more precision : I was on Deprenyl for 3 weeks and the whole time I didn't experience any side-effects, but when I stopped and the next day had dark chocolate is where my living hell started anxiety wise--had many panic attacks. On Deprenyl alone, I had better focus, and it would kill what litle sex drive was there at the time--this last information was very consistent over the 3-weeks course.

What you said about vitex in very interesting--it did catch my eye !

One thing of note, and very much of note actually is this :

10 years ago, when my sex drive started slowly going down, I went to a Traditional Chinese Medicine doc, and at first he prescribed something which he was convinced would work beautifully, but he was surprised to hear it didn't work at all when he saw me again two weeks later--he was stunned and went : ''Are you sure it didn't work at all !? It usually work pretty well for most everyone with low sex drive.''

So, after a little while he said that he'd need to nourish my heart/spirit (TCM nomenclature), so he gave me which in my terms is an anxiolytic formula and then added another formula to the mix : http://www.cgcmall.com/Nan_Bao_p/hr00nanb.htm I was able to locate the Nan Bao formula, but can't recall the name of the spirit nourishing one, but I'll and try and find it later on today when most of my work is done. So he found that he needed to nourish my heart and calm my spirit for my case to improve. Dr. Braverman also told me this : ''we need to calm you down so you can enjoy sex again'' These were his exact words to me.

Got to run, but man do I appreciate your help IH !! Joe too !

Cheers

In Dr. Braverman's last book : *Younger you* in the serotonin section he mentions many somewhat controversial opinions about the adverse effets of low serotonin. While I can't post them now, would you be so kind as to remind me to should it slipped my mind ? I really think this is important.

Here's what Dr. Eric Braverman says about a serotonin deficiency :

He says that a lack of serotonin will often cause depression and trigger the onset of other pauses (his model of pauses is as follows : pituitarypause, senrorypause etc...)

So he says that a lack of serotonin will :

Accelerate calcification, leading to osteopause
Lower your sex drive, triggering menopause and andropause
Lower your testosterone, leading to andropause
Lower your estrogen and progesterone, triggering menopause
Weaken your immune system, leading to immunopause
Accelerate skin aging or wrinkles and frown lines, triggering dermatopause.


I once posted this info on MESO for Dr. Romeo Mariano to go over and he didn't agree much with what Dr. Braverman says about the consequences of low serotonin--one of his argument was : ''what if a teen has low serotonin ? Will this trigger andropause and lower his Testosterone ?''

So he pretty much found this to be absurd--until now, I pretty much ignored what I quoted from Dr. Braverman, because he never back his claims, and that leaves me so disappointed. I even contacted his clinic since I used to be a patient of his, but he never returned my call, and that's not cause I didn't try hard enough

What he did say in many of his postings over at MESO was that serotonin can increase libido in some by decreasing perceived stress--that I recall vividly, and that makes complete sense to me.

You know, I've always been on edge, but back then, it didn't prevent me from having a very strong sex drive--so inner tension isn't something new to me at all. The thing is that 10 years ago I went into a year-long stress crisis at the onset of my relationship with the current better half--so it's pretty much where it all started. However the year prior to that crisis, I was diagnosed with the EBV virus, but it never ever got full-blown, and I wouldn't have known I had it, hadn't it been for the spleen pain upon breathing in. Liver enzymes weren't elevated at the time of diagnosis. I then thought the EBV episode might have been a player in my ongoing symptoms. So I was diagnosed with the EBV virus, and wasn't symptomatic, but then a year afterwards, I suffered that stress crisis I wrote about above as a result of insecurity which turned into overt obsession--I was afraid my gf would cheat on me for some reason. Mind you, she did give me some reason to doubt her integrity right at the start, and I'm one to be mistrustful by nature, so that simply boosted my distrust quite a bit, and that lead to a crisis that lasted a year--that's right, everyday I was tormented by these recurrent thoughts of unfaithfulness. On top of this, I had to work a job I hated with a passion, so that was back to back stress. Once I quit that job and the relationship stress was over, I recall telling my gf that it felt as though my SNS was stuck at *on*. Before I started working that job, my sex drive has already started decreasing, and that's where I went to that TCM guy I wrote about above. At first once he figured me out, it was very helpful, but then it stopped working altogether, no matter which formula I'd take or whatever the dosage. And two weeks into that hellish job, I literally collapsed ; I was ever so weak, short term memory was completely shot, sex drive was lower than zero if I may say so, I got ear buzzing...I was dragging myself at work and at home. Standing up to get the TV remote control was a chore in and of itself, so you can imagine how low I was. I tried a lot of natural stuff, but nothing was working now, even the things that worked before. One day though, I got this liver tonic : http://www.nationalnutrition.ca/detail.aspx?ID=1268
This digestive tonic sent me back on my feet in no time energy wise--I used two bottles of it and then I was fine, and the benefits stayed thereafter. That too got me wondering as to what system(s) might be defective. Granted. herbs in that formula exert benefit elsewhere in the body.

Obviously, I have Gilbert's Syndrome, so I wonder how detrimental GS can actually be, despite acknowledged as a benign liver disease. Like I said in my initial post, I never could foind out anything connecting GS with any of the symptoms I've had, especially the non-existent sex drive, so it's probably not GS acting up here, but stress. However, I still wonder why that above mentioned tonic got me back on my feet so well.....um....