Low sugar/carb diet or low oxalate diet?

"We’ve been experiencing with calcium citrate and magnesium citrate, which are both anti-oxalate. The calcium is important in the gut – if there is calcium in the gut, the oxalates won’t be reabsorbed in the body, they’ll stay in the stool"

Jdp in your quest for the perfect diet and while researching msg ,you once posted that citrates including supplements should be avoided as they are actually a free glutamic acid/msg source.

Do you recommend Ca citrate supplementation as everyone else is advocating against Ca supplementation with all the talk about Ca metabolism.

It gets to be a bit of a juggling act doesn't it, lol. With that said, most of the juggling act is due to processed food ... including supplements.

But yeah, I don't use calcium citrate. I actually bought calcium citrate to experiment but dropped it after about 2 weeks. There are other options to tie up oxalates. Magnesium will. Beta Alanine will. Lactobacillus acidophilus will and can be killed off by oxalates. The trick to tieing up oxalates is to consume right before a meal. The reason why calcium citrate is recommended over other forms of calcium is because the citrate will remove already existing oxalates in the body. Other forms of calcium will just prevent absorption of oxalates. Alternatively, can consume foods that contain calcium first in the meal. And to make matters even more complicated you get foods such as Maca that is high in oxalates but also contains calcium.

So again, the citrate from food such as lemons and limes is perfectly fine. But it's the processing in supplements and processed foods is the problem. Citrates including calcium citrate, magnesium citrate, etc. usually come from corn. Corn is one of those that are used to create free glutamic acid and releases high amounts of free glutamic acid during processing. Through in genetically engineered food and it becomes a huge mess.

And then you have almost all shampoo that puts hydrolyzed soy protein or similiar and/or other MSG derivatives which is only going to constrict the blood vessels when you apply the shampoo. I forget the exact percentage but hydrolyzed X protein will contain "somewhere" like 40% free glutamic acid which gets absorbed through your skin. MSG is something like 85% free glutamic acid by weight. Gelatin is something like 18% free glutamic acid. Rinsing your hair with cold water will help (not sure how much though) if I'm not mistaken.

In short, I don't recommend calcium citrate, lol.

Hey CausticSymmetry,

Yeah, most of the posts regarding oxalates that I post here comes from the owner of that yahoo forum. She doesn't appear to be one of those who would post information that was inaccurate on purpose. Here is her biography as it's interesting and relates to oxalates. By the way, besides oxalates role in heavy metals there is also a very good connection between oxalates and candida. I don't understand or remember the information something about biotin and something about oxalic acid or whatever but the low oxalate diet appears to be the ultimate candida diet as well ... or more accurate the ultimate candida diet for those affected by oxalates.

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"Susan Costen Owens, our listowner, is the Head of the Autism Oxalate Project at the Autism Research Institute. She's lectured widely nationally and internationally for the past eleven years (over fifty lectures in those years including three times speaking at Defeat Autism Now! conferences and many times at AutismOne). She has also lectured in England, Scotland, Norway, Spain, Germany, Poland, and even in Australia and have spoken also at the NIH and the CDC when addressing the interplay of mercury issues with problems in the sulfur system that are seen in autism. You'll find her work talked about in nine books, now!

From graduate school until now, she has been integrating her work with fellow members of the Defeat Autism Now! Thinktank where she is a regular and active participant.This is the research arm of ARI, and nothing gets to the conferences until it has been evaluated at the thinktank. This is also where the doctors treating children with autism compare notes on how treatments have worked, and where they haven't and this is where ARI identifies areas that need more study in the literature (which is what Susan does) and that's where they decide which new ideas will get incorporated into the conferences and taught to physicians seeking training. Susan began with Defeat Autism Now right after it began in 1995 and she attended their very first conference as a graduate student, and has been neck-deep ever since.

Susan is a graduate of Vanderbilt University with a masters degree from the University of Texas in Dallas. She focused her first ten years of research studying how the sulfur system is regulated normally, how it interacts with other biological systems, how it matures and how it affects post-natal neurodevelopment and how it is dysregulated in autism, with a huge emphasis on sulfate and glycosaminoglycans. (To report and further explore what she learned that way, she set up a yahoogroup called sulfurstories years ago so that people with any condition could compare notes on positive and negative reactions to sulfur supplements or foods.) As part of this emphasis on sulfur, she studied biotin's role in the body, its safety as a supplement and usefulness in autism. This was fortunate since we later learned that oxalate impairs the function of biotin-dependent enzymes (and many others, too).

Sulfate and oxalate regulation interact, and after thinking harder about that when she heard about the successes of using the low oxalate diet by the Vulvar Pain Foundation on their own patient group, she began studying oxalate regulation intensely for about four months, reading every scientific paper she could find on oxalate no matter what patient group (or animal or plant or microbe) was being discussed. In doing this intense study, she developed a bit different understanding of mechanisms compared to the model put out by the Vulvar Pain Foundation. That was more than four years ago. (This document is being written in 2009.)

Very, very few people actually do the kind of work Susan does in the medical literature, and that really puts breaks on the scientific process, with the result that most research is "me-too" research. Susan was trained in graduate school to critically read medical and scientific literature as her life's work. What that involves is finding new relevant literature, and digging into old historic medical literature for lost information and opportunities, and then integrating all that information together with present clinical opportunities. Most scientists only know a very narrowly defined field and only care about work that has been done in that field during the last four years and in the favorite journals of their own field. There are scientists who are exceptions to this rule, but they are few! This reality is sad, but sociologists studying who reads scientific papers have found that most scientific work is never read by anyone besides the authors and his friends....and about five percent of the studies produced are read by lots and lots of people, because they are popularized by "star scientists".

While studying the literature on oxalate, Susan learned oxalate overlaps in many ways with the regulation of the sulfur chemistry, and especially sulfate, which was her key interest in graduate school. She quickly realized that the leaky gut and bowel inflammation known to be so central in autism would lead to hyperabsorption of oxalate. For that reason, with the help of Pumfey Silverglide, who alerted her to the use of the low oxalate diet in vulvodynia to reduce pain, and who had asked her if she thought the diet might reduce pain in autism, she began a small pilot study that confirmed excess oxalate to be a potential issue in autism. These children were put by their parents on a low oxalate diet just to see what it would change. This pilot group was the beginning of the Autism Oxalate Project.

The results in the group of children beginning a low oxalate diet were so astonishing, and the results in others who joined in quickly after that meant that with a team of eager parents, we began pioneering the use of the low oxalate diet in autism. For Susan, this has involved a lot of work behind the scenes coordinating the research efforts of many scientists and physicians...so she does a lot beyond what listmates see on this listserve.

Our group's first official survey for autism conducted after about a year confirmed that this diet seems to not only address pain and motility issues in the gastrointestinal tract with improvements in urinary issues, but it also is leading to rapid improvements in gross motor, fine motor, speech, cognition, growth and major changes in core autistic features, even in adults.

Susan did not set up this listserve only to serve autism because while looking for resources, she quickly discovered that the use of the low oxalate diet in kidney disease was very minor and those advising patients were unaware of the effects of oxalate outside the kidney. They certainly didn't know about the detox process that we now have learned is a common process in anyone doing the diet. Because of the work she had already done in the literature, she anticipated that the detox process would occur because she knew it happened in patients with genetic hyperoxaluria who detoxify from oxalate after liver transplant. Once oxalate has gotten in tissues, the body doesn't care WHERE the oxalate came from, and that is why she anticipated the "dumping" process would be the same. The only thing she didn't know was how severe the detox might be in other patient populations whose oxalate had come from diet and a leaky gut.

It did not take long at all to find that the food lists used by kidney people were conflicting and very incomplete, and the Vulvar Pain Foundation had done a great job in testing more foods that are common to most Americans. The Autism Oxalate Project determined to get testing done on foods that are more commonly used in people with gluten sensitivities (like celiac disease) and people who have so many food allergies that they have to eat a lot of exotic foods. The project also realized there were foods used in other cultures that Westerners haven't even heard of....so a lot of the efforts of the project have been at consolidation of information and new food testing.

Another very obvious problem Susan discovered while getting to know the scientists in the oxalate field personally, was that the medical community has the impression that you couldn't develop problems caused by oxalate unless the kidneys were obviously damaged first. We have learned here that this assumption came from only using the diet for kidney stones and in no other condition until the patient developed kidney stones. Other oxalate issues might have come first, but they were not recognized as oxalate issues. We know now after watching the course of the diet with the 2500 people on this listserve today that there are a lot of conditions that are caused or made worse by oxalate, because they go away on this diet. Susan was very concerned also that people with conditions with VERY CLEAR risks from oxalate expressed in the medical literature were not being told of those risks by their doctors or even by their dieticians. Most dieticians don't know this diet!

Also, during these last four years Susan has met and gotten to know the key players in the world in oxalate research by attending their conferences. They are solidly stuck in a "kidneys only" model, so her efforts behind the scene are to develop testing outside the kidney, and recruit scientists to study oxalate's relationships to all the diseases known to have a leaky gut and comorbidities that develop slowly over time. That would include cystic fibrosis, celiac disease, those who have had bariatric surgery, diabetes, and even Down syndrome and actually many more. Our project suspects there are a lot of surprises ahead regarding how much oxalate being overabsorbed through a leaky gut has contributed to human misery!"

Jdp,

thanks for your response.I'm looking at some of the high oxalate foods ,Tahini(sesame seed pulp) and sesame seeds are among them.At the same time these are among the foods with the highest Ca content and extremely healthy lignans-fatty acids.
What about such foods?
Can the high Ca content prevent the oxalates from getting absorbed ,so such foods would still be a viable option ?
I want to believe that yes.

it's interesting the oxalates

jdp - i came to a similar but opposite conclusion between oxalates and nanobacteria - i'm almost sure oxalates = nanobacteria (with calcified crust)

i would go further that: hypothyroidism, cancer, arthritis, scleroderma, insulin resistance, inlaflammation, fybromyalgia, PCOs cancer, acne, MPB, .... = funghi (nanobacteria)

Prague - One thing I know for sure, is that nanobacteria, calcium and heavy metals are almost always found together in hormone triggered cancer, such as prostate and breast.

An extremely effective protocol for these cancers involves a tetracycline antibiotic (I would use Ecklonia cava instead of course), and suppository chelation (using Detoxamin).

That all said, perhaps the oxalates are associated in someway with the bacteria, calcium and heavy metals.

speaking of bacteria, L form bacteria, fungus, virus, etc. I wonder if negative hydrogen is a universal inhibitor

"Negative hydrogen establishes a biological terrain wherein harmful microbes, such as yeasts, bacteria, viruses and other parasites, do not remain. This terrain is unfavorable to cancer cells as well. "

http://www.reallywell.com/neg_h.htm#ORDER

JDP, CS

gemrmanium adresses all these points - i've posted somewhere one of its mechanism of action called dehydrogenation (i think it's the same principle as negative hydrogen) plus it chelates heavy metals and is highly alkalising and kills the yeast/bacteria per se

IMO probiotics are good but unless you body's environment changes they wont' survive long time- it was my experience at least

JDP and Prague - I am looking at adding Germanium or Negative Hydrogen.. In your opinion, is one better then the other? It sounds like they perform a lot of similar functions. Any thoughts as to if they would act synergistically?

Project: JS - I've taken Negatively charged hydrogen ions for years now. Germanium is quite different. If I had a choice, I would take the former without hesitation.

Sorry now I realize my last post was off topic.. my apologies.. getting back on the topic..

JDP and those of you on the low oxalate diet - Ive noticed that there are a lot of oxalate in food lists that you can download that have differing oxalate information. Which ones are you going off of?

CS - thats excellent info. I wish I knew about that sooner haha! but Im glad I know about it now.. I will def add negative hydrogen on my next order. Do you mind if I ask what kind you recommend?

Project: JS - Currently I take a "lighter version" of it found in Renewal Antioxidants. I used to take the larger doses, which are currently no longer available at iherb. The kind I take jut has 100 mg.

Jdp710 has a link to where he gets a much larger dose.

CausticSymmetry wrote:Project: JS - I've taken Negatively charged hydrogen ions for years now. Germanium is quite different. If I had a choice, I would take the former without hesitation.

CS, could you add on this, please? i was wondering if there's a difference between suplying negatively charged H and absorbing positively charged H (which i thought was one of the properties of Ge)

also, why would you prefere H- over Ge? (you are one of few that tried both; based on what i've read i would slightly favour the latter, since Ge realeases free oxygen)

Prague - Yes, I've used germaniuim. It was originally interesting to me because it increases oxygen, particulary in areas to the retina--it's used treat detached retinas.

With negatively charged hydrogen ions, it produces an immediate effect when under a state high oxidative stress. It chelates mercury, and will help the cells produce bicarbonate by removing the excess positive hydrogen ions in the cells.

Its particle size is extremely small and acts as a detergent to clear out toxins within the cells.

thanks for the reply - Ge chelates mercury, lead, cadlium as well

i'm really into the charge of H after jdp brought this up
what i was wondering is if there's a difference between absorbing H+ and supplying H- (which approach would be better)

also and if there's a difference in mechanism of actions between supplying alkalising minerals, MMS, H-, Ge, H peroxyd since the mechanism seems to me very similar. Anyone could shed some light, please?

I second Prague's curiosity about this..

Prague and CS & JDP if you are interested - I posted something I found on Earth Clinic in the "About MMS" thread on this forum just now that I think may shed some light on the relation between MMS, H-, iodine, vitamin C, and hydrogen peroxide. This is one of the areas I am researching heavily at the moment and found it to be interesting.

Here is the link for that post if you are so inclined. https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/natural-hair-regrowth-f1/about-mms-t1216-30.htm#26475

Thanks for the heads up on that btw CS - very cool.. It looks like I will be adding Renewal Antioxidants to my regimen coming up as it should save me some money. If you take 4 a day its only about $32 a month which it looks like would be a good value vs. the ingredients individually.

One question tho.. is the amount of Vitamin A Palminate (4,000 IU) a concern as far as toxicity or its reported ability to counteract the positive effects of Vitamin D?

Renewal Antioxidants Formula - 60 tab (about $16)

Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 4 tablet(s)
Amount %DV
Calories 10
Sodium 5 mg <2%
Total Carbohydrates 1 g <2%
Dietary Fiber 1 g 4%
Vitamin A (as beta carotene 8,500 IU & palmitate 4,000 IU) 12500 IU 250%
Vitamin C (as ascorbic acid & ascorbyl palmitate) 1000 mg 1,680%
Vitamin E (as D-alpha tocopheryl) 400 IU 1,390%
Riboflavin (vitamin B-2) 25 mg 1,470%
Iron 470 mcg 2%
Zinc (as monomethionine [Opti-Zinc]) 15 mg 100%
Selenium (as selenomethionine [SelenoPure] & sodium selenite) 200 mcg 280%
Manganese (as manganese succinate) 10 mg 500%
gamma Vitamin E Complex 500 mg †
Turmeric Rhizome Extract 95% 300 mg †
alpha-Lipoic Acid & R-Lipoic Acid 210 mg †
N-Acetyl Cysteine 200 mg †
Wheat Sprouts 150 mg †
Quercetin 100 mg †
Amla Fruit (Phyllanthus emblica) 100 mg †
Grape Seed Extract (Proanthodyn) 100 mg †
Green Tea Extract (95% polyphenols, 35% EGCG) 100 mg †
Hawthorn Berry Extract (4:1) 100 mg †
Mega H-Microcluster Silica Hydride Powder 100 mg †
Rosemary Leaf Extract (20% diterpenes) 100 mg †
Ginger Root 100 mg †
Ginger Root Extract (5% gingerols) 80 mg †
SOD (superoxide dismutase[GliSODin]) 80 mg †
Milk Thistle Seed Extract 80 mg †
Yielding 66 mg Silymarin
Pomegranate Seed Extract (40% elagitannins) 60 mg †
Red Raspberry Leaf Extract (40% elagitannins) 50 mg †
Blueberry Leaf Extract (20% chlorogenic acid) 50 mg †
L-Carnosine 50 mg †
Ginkgo Leaf Extract (50:1) 24% Flavoneglycosides 40 mg †
Coenzyme Q10 30 mg †
L-Glutathione 25 mg †
Bilberry Fruit Std. Ext. (37% anthocyanocides) 20 mg †
Total Resveratrols 20 mg †
(from Polygonum cuspidatum Extract
Tocotrienol Complex (Tocomax) 20 mg †
Myricetin 20 mg †
DMAE (as bitartrate) 20 mg †
Lycopene 3 mg †
Lutein (FloraGlo) 3 mg †
Astaxanthin 1 mg

Project JS,

FWIW, I personally don't notice a difference with Mega H at 300 or 600 mg of negative hydrogen per day but I very much do at 900 or 1200 mg ... that's where the benefits really are IME.

Regarding germanium, while I didn't use the collodial version I tried this version http://www.iherb.com/Allergy-Research-Group-Nutricology-Organic-Germanium-21-oz-6-g/3443?at=0 and I won't be ordering again. I don't notice immediate benefits with whereas Mega H I do. My advice, if you buy germanium, buy the form (collodial?) or product that Prague has previously recommended.

I gotta second JDP on this, I got that kind as well. It seemed to make my hair thin and wispy.

Oh wow.. this is becoming a trend JDP - two of my most pressing questions answered with one post. Thank you! Do you mind if I ask, are you currently on Germanium? if so what kind and what amount?

If milk, especially pasteurized is removed from your diet, what do you guys do to get calcium?

tooyoung - We do not need calcium from milk. Of course there's always raw milk from grass-fed cows, however we do not generally need much calcium in the diet, unless one has a disorder of some kind.

There is an inverse association between high calcium intake and osteoporosis.

In the near future will be writing about why it's dangerous to take calcium supplements.

Food sources are fine, however.

Ahh, looking forward to reading it. I was wondering about osteoporosis, as a grandparent has it and I don't want to get it. What food sources can I consume calcium from which are hair friendly? Also, sorry I don't know what "inverse association" means.

tooyoung - The above statement means that lower calcium intake is better for osteporosis based on epidemiologic studies (not that they are always accurate).

The following and it's part 2 will give the basic info needed to prevent this disorder.

http://www.immortalhair.org/apps/blog/show/1954532-the-right-way-the-wrong-way-to-reverse-osteoporosis