New and seeking advice

Hello everyone

new here and really needing some help. Though not new to the hair loss communities or hair loss for that matter.

I'm 22, started receding slowly about two years ago, I actually thought it was a normal part of my hairline. But i realized last year that miniaturized hairs in the hairline were definately not normal. So I started heavily researching and began a regimine of my own. Sadly it didn't help much and am eager
to change things up as things are getting bad. My hairline recession in the beginning was very small, and I expected it to dokie my fathers hair loss pattern which is minimal and has been very slow. Of course there's he odd change I am destined worse off than him. At least I'm pretty sure I won't have crown loss, knock on wood!

Anyways. My current theory on hairloss is that. Yea DHT is horrible for hair, but in some people Testosterone is equally as harmful, particularly in the hairline. Also that estrogen is good for hair. I've read studies where women have more estrogen in ther scalp, and men have more estrogen in the vertex/crown, but less in the hairline. Perhaps a reason why many treatments work better in crown/vertex, and why women experience diffuse loss, and not frontal loss. Also it's been argued that estrogen can't be good for hair and testosterone must be good, because old men bald, and they have more estrogen and less testosterone. Well my view on this is that, rather, it's the reason older man bald slowly, while younger guys bald faster and more aggressively.

Anyways, full thinking testosterone was bad for hair, I hesitated a long time before tryin finasteride. When I finally did I Knew I needed a topical to fight the increase in testosterone and the increase in androgen receptor sensitivity. This led t
me to my current regimine which I've been for the most part consistant with for at least 5 months. I've actually been on fin for 8 months however.

.5mg EOD finasteride
1x daily fluridil
1x daily spironolactone

Wow I can't edit my post! Anyways continuing... (my spiro is topical creme)

folligen EOD
revita shampoo (niz)
daily supps (circumin, krill oil, grape seed extract, msm, glucosamine, vitamin e toco mix, gingko balboa, vitamin d3, taurine, ecgc, coenzyme a, a few others)

anyways, I really thought this regimine was going to help. I've monitored blood tests through out. Unfortunately, as of now I feel it's destroyed my hairline. My DHT levels are much lower (yay), but testosterone levels are much higher by about 25%. I went from shedding 10-15 hairs daily to as of two months ago 60-70 daily. I can also see my scalp easily in most lighting now, whereas my density was perfect before treatment. I was hoping this was a normal "good" shed but it's been almost two months, and it hasn't decreased. This has led me to rethinking my strategy.

Right now I'm aiming to lower my testosterone naturally (with oral spiro as a last resort), and perhaps even substitue fin for a natural alternative. Howver I also want to add new things and hit it from new directions. All if this is where I need help.

I an going to add flax lignans, soy iso flavones, and spearment supps to lower testosterone and decrease androgen receptors. Also going to stop grape seed extract, vitamin e tocos, krill oil, as from studies they increase testosterone. This is why I feel my testosterone increased passed the normal 10% experienced by finasteride users.

I know this won't be enough. Even this idea has me thinking twice. There is so much contradicting info out there, even in studies! I really liked hairloss-research.orgs regimine but most of it increases testosterone:( I want to try a few things from immortalhairs but dunno which aspects lower testosterone, dht, both, or do the opposite and raise testosterone.

One thing I hate about fin is how it increases androgen receptors, or at least their sensitivity to weaker androgens such ad testosterone. Can any natural supps that decrease or block DHT do so without raising testosterone or at the very least without increasing AR or AR sensitivity? Nettle root? Maca? Saw palmetto? Equol? I have no idea.

So I guess in the end I'm confused and need guideanxe and am open to all avenues to treating it, I'm not close minded about my theories either. Though one thong us really like to acheive is lowering androgen receptors and or their sensitivity.


Ahh this was long, but thanks to those who got this far

Ps sorry for all the typos. I am sick (cold) and typed it from my bed on my phone lol. And I can't edit posts

iluvhair - To edit your post, you'll have to copy what you wrote, hit the "X" or delete, paste what you've copied and then edit before you send again.

Using the drugs with the naturals is a bit unpredictable and as you mentioned it can possibly alter the receptor sensitivity--everyone is truly different. At your age, blocking androgens is the way to go, however there are other ways to complement your therapy instead of Finasteride and Spirolactone.

Hello everyone Smile

new here and really needing some help. Though not new to the hair loss communities or hair loss for that matter.

I'm 22, started receding slowly about two years ago, I actually thought it was a normal part of my hairline. But i realized last year that miniaturized hairs in the hairline were definately not normal. So I started heavily researching and began a regimine of my own. Sadly it didn't help much and am eager to change things up as things are getting bad. My hairline recession in the beginning was very small, and I expected it to copy my fathers hair loss pattern which is minimal and has been very slow. Of course there's the odd chance I am destined worse off than him. At least I'm pretty sure I won't have crown loss, knock on wood!

Anyways. My current theory on hairloss is that. Yea DHT is horrible for hair, but in some people Testosterone is equally as harmful, particularly in the hairline. Also that estrogen is good for hair. I've read studies where women have more estrogen in ther scalp, and men have more estrogen in the vertex/crown, but less in the hairline. Perhaps a reason why many treatments work better in crown/vertex, and why women experience diffuse loss, and not frontal loss. Also it's been argued that estrogen can't be good for hair and testosterone must be good, because old men bald, and they have more estrogen and less testosterone. Well my view on this is that, rather, it's the reason older man bald slowly, while younger guys bald faster and more aggressively.

Anyways, fully thinking testosterone was bad for hair, I hesitated a long time before tryin finasteride. When I finally did I knew I needed a topical to fight the increase in testosterone and the increase in androgen receptor sensitivity. This led me to my current regimine, which I've been for the most part consistant with for at least 5 months. I've actually been on Fin for 8 months however.

.5mg EOD finasteride
1x daily fluridil
1x daily topical spironolactone
folligen EOD
revita shampoo (niz)
daily supps (circumin, krill oil, grape seed extract, msm, glucosamine, vitamin e toco mix, gingko balboa, vitamin d3, taurine, ecgc, coenzyme a, a few others)

anyways, I really thought this regimine was going to help. I've monitored blood tests through out. Unfortunately, as of now I feel it's destroyed my hairline. My DHT levels are much lower (yay), but testosterone levels are much higher by about 25%. I went from shedding 10-15 hairs daily to as of two months ago 60-70 daily. I can also see my scalp easily in most lighting now, whereas my density was perfect before treatment. I was hoping this was a normal "good" shed but it's been almost two months, and it hasn't decreased. This has led me to rethinking my strategy.

Right now I'm aiming to lower my testosterone naturally (with oral spiro as a last resort), and perhaps even substitue Fin for a natural alternative. However I also want to add new things and hit it from new directions. All of this is where I need help.

I an going to add flax lignans, soy iso flavones, and spearment supps to lower testosterone and decrease androgen receptors. Also going to stop grape seed extract, vitamin e tocos, krill oil, as from studies they increase testosterone. This is why I feel my testosterone increased passed the normal 10% experienced by finasteride users.

I know this won't be enough. Even this idea has me thinking twice. There is so much contradicting info out there, even in studies! I really liked hairloss-research.orgs regimine but most of it increases testosterone:( I want to try a few things from immortalhairs but dunno which aspects lower testosterone, dht, both, or do the opposite and raise testosterone.

One thing I hate about fin is how it increases androgen receptors, or at least their sensitivity to weaker androgens such ad testosterone. Can any natural supps that decrease or block DHT do so without raising testosterone or at the very least without increasing AR or AR sensitivity? Nettle root? Maca? Saw palmetto? Equol? I have no idea.

So I guess in the end I'm confused and need guideance and am open to all avenues to treating it, I'm not close minded about my theories either. Though one thing I'd really like to acheive is lowering androgen receptors and or their sensitivity.


Ahh this was long, but thanks to those who got this far. Smile

CS,

In regards to the androgens is there any safe way to do this naturally with supplements or does top 6 also handle this factor? I think you mentioned the best way to blunt androgens is avoid sugars/grains and maintain healthy blood sugar/insulin levels? Correct? In most cases I would imagine this would sort the androgen issues?

are there any known supps that can block androgen receptors or decrease AR sensitivity? i read that curcumin could degrade ARs. same with vitamin E, but vitamin E raises testosterone.

what about a replacement for fin that wont increase AR sensitivity?

and do you think that the drug/natural combo spiked up my AR sensitivity? how can i address it.

isaac - Theoretically, a diet only approach would work if the world did not contain the sort of pollutants it does today, you would never have received a single vaccination, never went to the dentist, and ate all your food, including meat, completely raw. Additionally all meats would need to be native-fed or pasture/free-range. Also you would need to live closer to the equator where you could get enough sunlight to have optimal vitamin D levels year-round. I'm sure I'm forgetting something--in other words, it's really tough to do it without supplements.

Mitochondrial decay (free-radicals) are center to the degrading process, so this is where supplements are important. Omega-3 fatty acids are critical to rebalance the proper ratio of N-6 to N-3 fatty acid ratios.

iluvhair - Testosterone is not the enemy. Increasing estrogen is dangerous business. To get straight to the point, what you want to do is increase or normalize your SHBG levels (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin). In young males with MPB, the problem is that there is too much free testosterone, which is due to low SHBG. If you increase SHBG, less testosterone will be available to convert into DHT.

If you add estrogen it will emasculate one into a female. Only recommend for cross gender, so it's a miss.

How do you desensitize DHT? Antioxidants, Omega-3 fatty acids, and whole, natural, non-synthetic isolate vitamins (I believe Brewer's yeast is the best source of this).

Curcumin & Sulforaphane alter the androgen receptor. Curcumin downregulates TGF-beta. Ecklonia Cava works similar to doxycycline without the negative sides and is an extremely powerful antioxidant with many other advantages. Vitamin D optimization also helps, probably with regard to bacterial homeostasis.

An alternative to Finasteride is Beta-Sitosterol. Unlike the pharmaceuticals, it does not alter the gene expression, but instead cuts off the synthesis potential of hormone production and does not ruin the endocrine system. There is no potential permanent feed-back loop error, so if sides occurs, they stop when beta-sistosterol is stopped.

Another very important focus is aldosterone, and to keep this low is very important. Instead of Spirolactone, would use Magnesium and other measures to lower aldosterone.

_________________
http://www.immortalhair.org/mycurrentregimen.htm

Thanks! Your words on testosterone and shbg make sense. My shbg is low. I thought raising this automatically means more estrogen?

How can I raise shbg significantly?

a low carb diet and omega 3 supplementation should help i think

iluvhair - I second KAPTUNKRUNK, Antioxidants are important, especially fat soluble such as lipoic acid and Ecklonia Cava

Also low thyroid function lowers SHBG, so normalizing thyroid is important. How is this done? Plenty of iodine.
I would suggest using either Iosol or Lugol's solution

Keep in mind that SHBG binds to DHT four times greater than testosterone.

Thanks guys! Putting all this advice to good use, planning and researching.

Can you explain the feedback loop issue with Fin? Have I possibly permanately sensitized my ARs?

I recommend eating wild alaskan salmon from vitalchoice.com, great prices and the fish is pristine in quality, it's my main protein source with sardines. If you want to try to block some of the effects of DHT naturaly try to eat alot of avocados, those things are awesome and if you eat atleast one a day (i eat 2-3) then you can get a decent amount of beta-sitosterol in your system.

The fish I eat everyday gives me fantastic nutrition, more than enough omega-3 and cuts down on my omega-6 intake from red meat by default. I eat red meat once or twice a week, it's great but my hair doesn't feel good if I eat it everyday. This should help you balance your androgens imo!

How long have you been on this regimen and how consistent have you been?.
Finasteride is a dangerous drug and while it did an amazing job at slowing down my quite aggressive hair loss it destroyed many other factors of my health. No need to mention these, but I'll just say I got about every listed side effect. Who knows what other roles DHT has to play in your body.

I can't imagine how your regimen wouldn't be working. I imagine you wither haven't been consistent with it, haven't been on it long enough to assess your success or you mistaken your increase in hair loss for the shed which has to occur when you begin such a potent regimen. Many begginers of regimens fail to realise that there is nearly always a shed. This shed is important and the results will come afterwards. The younger and more aggressive MPB sufferers will indure a much larger shed as more of their hair will be undergoing the MPB process. The shed takes a while to occur and a while to recover from, but it is all part of the recovery process. Take CS's advice, but don't be jumping in and out of different regimens. It will only make things worse.

Decro -

I have been constistant in terms of not adding / changing for about 5 months. I've been on fin for 8 months. About 5 months at .5mg EOD. I cut my proscar so I admit my doseages are not perfectly the same, going to dissolve in alchohol to ensure even doses soon. Also sometimes I'll take it every third day instead of every other day. However, the studies on Fin indicated that varied doses didn't change it's effectiveness. It'd be nice if it was a healthy "fin shed" but two months long, and 7 months in?

I'm willing to stay on fin for awhile longer while I introduce in a few things per everyones advice, but I just can't fathom that a 2 month long shed as being good?

And the fact that my testosterone is higher now, and it's been highly theorized that testosterone can bind easily to the hairline follicles (which are less protected than the crown) it just makes sense it's the cause of my loss.

Eager to hear your thoughts!

Nobody can predict when the shed will occur and how long it will last, but 7 months in does seem to be unusual. However, seeing the results from finasteride seem to show that the extra free testosterone has minimal effect on many users. I've never actually read these studies on testosterone binding to the AR's, do you have any links to them?. How's your expierience with Revita/ how often do you use it and how consistent are you with it?.

Also, do you suffer any inflammation or itching sensation in your hair loss areas?.

Also, Shouldn't Spiro stop both testosterone and DHT binding?. When I used Spiro I felt an almost immediate calming sensation on the applied areas as oppossed to the itchy, irritated scalp I usually have to deal with. What's your expierience with it?.

Decro435 wrote:Nobody can predict when the shed will occur and how long it will last, but 7 months in does seem to be unusual. However, seeing the results from finasteride seem to show that the extra free testosterone has minimal effect on many users. I've never actually read these studies on testosterone binding to the AR's, do you have any links to them?. How's your expierience with Revita/ how often do you use it and how consistent are you with it?.

Also, do you suffer any inflammation or itching sensation in your hair loss areas?.

Also, Shouldn't Spiro stop both testosterone and DHT binding?. When I used Spiro I felt an almost immediate calming sensation on the applied areas as oppossed to the itchy, irritated scalp I usually have to deal with. What's your expierience with it?.

Theres a lot of users who say their hairlines were destroyed, i dunno how many waited long enough, but i did find one or two that gave it two years, with no luck.

i dont have any studies about testosterone binding to ARs in the hairline, but ARs are affected by all adrogens, DHT is just the strongest.

Spiro *should* but theres no evidence topical spiro even works that great, if at all. it has aloe vera, perhaps thats why your scalp was calmed?

ive never had an irritated or itchy scalp, maybe dht causes that since its so powerful. perhaps im just so sensitive to testosterone, i dunno?

Listen man, what you are commenting about is so out of your ball park to understand. The endocrine system is very complex. It has much more to do with just being young, and having a lot of testosterone, and getting old, and having more estrogen.
However, I will contradict myself, and say that your guess is just as good as anyone else's. because I've never seen anyone in any area of science, re grow normal hair on someone's head. I've never seen pictures, or evidence of it. Just peach fuzz. And we all know that rogaine is absolutely useless. So your theory is just as good as anyone with a degree in Endocrinology as far as I'm concerned.

caustic -


Can you explain the feedback loop issue with Fin? Have I possibly permanately sensitized my ARs?

id like to add that my DHEA levels are/were very very low, at the bottom or even less. could this be any sort of cause for my hair loss? i really wanted to raise it, but that raises testosterone, dht, and everything! thoughts?

iluvhair wrote:id like to add that my DHEA levels are/were very very low, at the bottom or even less. could this be any sort of cause for my hair loss? i really wanted to raise it, but that raises testosterone, dht, and everything! thoughts?

iluvhair - Ultimately high DHEA is very good. When it's low, it means you're prone to inflammation, and low immunity. High DHEA does not automatically equal DHT. Steroidal enzyme expression will determine the outcome of DHT. As long as you keep glucose/blood sugar metabolism healthy, high DHEA will never be a problem.

jdp710 had mentioned a few times how magnesium oil can safely raise DHEA levels. Complimentary ways to this involve taking a combination of iodine and various glandulars, such as thyroid, thymus, pituitary and adrenal extracts.

what about 7-keto dhea supps? are they beneficial?

could low dhea be the cause of my hair loss or no?

bump ^^