my hairline is getting crazy!

If you want smaller quantities www.lotioncrafter.com sells it as well. They have quantities as low as 8g (0.25 oz). Using their conversion rate 50 grams would be about 1.75 ounces. The stuff is kind of expensive but supposedly you can use less active ingredients because of this.

Dimethyl Isosorbide (DMI) is a high purity solvent and carrier which offers a safe, effective delivery enhancement mechanism for active ingredients in personal care products. Sunless tanners, facial and eye-zone treatments, skin serums, anti-acne formulations and make-up removers are just some of the products whose performance can be improved with the use of Dimethyl Isosorbide (DMI) in formulation. In addition to improving performance, its use as an epidermal penetration enhancer can allow formulators to reduce the amount of actives required to achieve effects, resulting in reduced formulation costs, and lower skin irritation with aggressive active ingredients.

Dimethyl Isosorbide (DMI) offers:

* Enhanced penetration of actives to the epidermis, reaching areas that would otherwise go untreated
* Improved shelf stability of active ingredients, including actives susceptible to hydrolysis and transesterification
* Miscibility in water, most organic solvents and non-ionic surfactants
* The ability to transport water soluble actives into skin without recrystallization of the active ingredient

Dimethyl Isosorbide is soluble in a variety of ingredients including water, cottonseed oil, isopropanol, isopropyl myristate, propylene glycol, polysorbate 20, and polysorbate 80. It is insoluble in hydrogenated castor oil, lanolin, mineral oils or silicone oil (dimethicone).

Suggested Usage: 1 - 10%
Appearance: Clear oily liquid
Solubility: Soluble in water (see above)


INCI: Dimethyl Isosorbide

Caution: Do not directly apply onto your skin.
This product should be added to a formulation at the recommended usage rate.

The only concern I have is if it will dissolve in an oil

The DMI? You could always mix some polysorbate80 in the concoction.

Otherwise there is α-bisabolol (alpha bisabolol) Natural:

http://www.bulkactives.com/abisabololnatural.htm

Great post Prague!

Sometimes I wonder when the Chinese talk about liver and kidneys in treating hair loss that it's actually the wheat/gluten, casein/dairy, corn, soy and sugar that's consumed.

I've been using the papain topical for a couple days now. My first impression is that it works extremely well. Currently I am applying to a dry scalp and just mixing it in my palm with some very good moisturizer that is mainly shea butter and some palm oil. This moisturizer when it dries has a good cosmetic effect for my hair. The papain I have is the same as edony's. There is some fiber, but when it dries, it is easy to shake the fibers out, so you don't look like you have dandruff flakes.

I started it when I was back to what i am pretty sure is high T. It worked right away to stabilize some hair fall and extra sebum. The past two days have been remarkable hair days. My hair looks thick and healthy, applying it twice a day, morning and evening.

There's a lot of speculation about its mechanism. Personally, I think it is mainly estrogen. I have doubled my dose of 7hmr, and have been adding more anti-estrogen supps to balance, which would normally overwhelm me in the other direction. I wouldn't use it with a strong carrier because, as I have said before, these estrogenic topicals work best when they hang out on your scalp and absorb slowly. No point in making it easier to get systemic.

Since there seems to be something special about papain, perhaps the enzyme is also battling fibrosis--I swear some temple vellus hair is looking ridiculously perky. I would like to try a pre-formulated papain topical to see if there is a difference, since my papain seems to be whole dried green papaya.

All said, currently I plan to continue using it, as the sides seem negligible enough and the results outweigh any negatives thus far.

Cheers Prague. I felt like toasting you several times today--fingers crossed.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papain

Action by the FDA to restrict marketing of all topical drug products containing papain

See also article: Proteases (medical and related uses)

On September 23, 2008, the FDA warned companies to stop marketing topical drug products containing papain by November 4, 2008[4]. The FDA said, "Papain-containing drug products in topical form historically have been marketed without approval..."[5]. According to the FDA's statement on the subject, "These unapproved products have put consumers' health in jeopardy, from reports of permanent vision loss with unapproved balanced salt solutions to a serious drop in blood pressure and increased heart rate from the topical papain products," said Janet Woodcock, M.D., director for the Center for Drug Evaluation and Research. In the same FDA announcement, the FDA states the following:

About Unapproved Topical Papain Products: Topical drug ointments containing papain are used to remove dead or contaminated tissue in acute and chronic lesions, such as diabetic ulcers, pressure ulcers, varicose ulcers, and traumatic infected wounds. Trade names for these products include Accuzyme, Allanfil, Allanzyme, Ethezyme, Gladase, Kovia, Panafil, Pap Urea, and Ziox. Other products are marketed under the names of the active ingredients, for instance, papain-urea ointment.

The FDA is taking action today against these products because it has received reports of serious adverse events in patients using products containing papain. Reports include hypersensitivity (allergic) reactions that lead to hypotension (low blood pressure) and tachycardia (rapid heart rate). In addition, patients who are allergic to latex can also be allergic to papaya, the source of papain. Therefore, patients with latex sensitivity may be at increased risk of suffering an adverse reaction to a topical papain drug product.

FDA urges consumers who are using topical drug products containing papain, and who have questions or concerns, to contact their health care provider about discontinuing treatment with these products. There are a number of FDA-approved topical products that have been found safe and effective as wound healing agents and that do not contain papain.

"Removing unapproved topical drug products containing papain and unapproved ophthalmic balanced salt solutions is yet another step forward for patient safety," said Deborah M. Autor, director, Office of Compliance for CDER, FDA.

Does anyone have an idea why there would be lactose in this Life Extension Papain powder?

http://www.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Papain-Powder-100-g/16399?at=0

my search for "topical papain" turned up this:

"Papain, in the form of a meat tenderizer such as Adolph's, made into a paste with water, is also a home remedy treatment for jellyfish, bee, yellow jacket (wasp) stings, mosquito bites, and possibly stingray wounds, breaking down the protein toxins in the venom. It is also the main ingredient in Stop Itch and Stop Itch Plus, a DermaTech Laboratories first aid cream popular in Australia."

So I found the product info for Adolph's Meat tenderizer made by Lawry's:
http://www.lawrys.com/Products/Adolphs/Meat-Tenderizer/Adolphs-Original-Meat-Tenderizer.aspx

" Papaya fruit extract, natural sugars and sea salt gently tenderizes meat while infusing it with premium flavor."

I don't see how the natural sugars or the sea salt would be harmful to the scalp. Should I dare tenderize my head by mixing this with water? I would have the added benefit of being able to claim, "my scalp is infused with premium flavor."

Cool. Keep us updated Gibson. I really want to jump on board but don't have any of the necessary ingredients yet.

Gibson,
what kind of papain oil do you use? The amplyfied prague-version?

BTW:
I've thought about how to amplyfy papain-oil. Maybe a possible way is to take the
papain seeds which are inside of the papain fruit. Remove all papain meat, crush the seeds after drying in a pepper mill
and put the crushed seeds - as mentioned by prague - into your papain oil.

I believe he uses no papaya oil,just the papain powder .That's what i get out of his post...

Seems like the papain powder is best absorbed sans oil. The moisturizer I was using is very light, mostly water. When i tried to use the powder with olive oil, I got little benefit. I then washed my hair and just rubbed it in dissolved in some water. This was awkward since the powder clumped-up a bit. However, when my hair dried, it seemed like the enzyme had had the most pronounced effect. In short, I think oil lessens the effect of the enzyme with the powder I have. Not sure if the same goes for papain oil, particularly since that oil may have some of the enzyme already in it.

Gibson, edony,

thanks for answering.

Gibson,

I might be misreading your posts - but do you believe that the largest benefit of papain is cosmetic and temporary.

Or, rather, do you believe you are seeing a foreshadowing of things to come as existing hairs benefit ?

Gibson, interesting comment about the oil not helping with absorption. I am wondering how much effect the enzymes can have on things like calcium build up and cross-linked collagen if they are only applied superficially and not absorbed more deeply in some manner. Clearly you are liking what you are seeing though which is what is important!

I am waiting for all my supplies to arrive. Should be today or hopefully tomorrow. Same papain powder as Gibson and I found some papaya oil (http://www.fromnaturewithlove.com/product.asp?product_id=oilpapaya). Will add hyaluronic acid as Prague did. Last night I figured what the hell and thought I'd try it with bromelain. A little research indicates it is used a lot in hair care products and is also used topically in skin care products to break down cross-linked collagen. It also inhibits TGF-beta like papain. It's also listed as having anti-inflammatory properties in some shampoo formulations. Mixed it with emu oil and some hyaluronic acid and applied some to my forehead and my hair line. Skin on forehead looks very clear and healthy this a.m. and hair on hairline seems robust. I think it absorbed quite well with the emu oil. Bromelain may not have the same special qualities that is making papain so interesting but it was enough for me to see that the concept has some merit. Definitely something I am going to go with for a while.

I don't plan on doing papain any more that 3 days/week at the moment and am debating whether to leave it on overnight or only for a few hours in the evening. I have a healthy respect for such powerful enzymes when they are sitting on my head and don't want to over do it. This is more like Prague's approach. I am really interested to see how Gibson's works as it seems a little easier.

Gibson, let me know if you notice any side effects with the topical papain. Two/Three times a week shouldn't be too bad as long as it's alternated with pro-T regimen.

With certain topicals, it doesn't always have to be neccessary to penetrate the scalp to notice improvement.

I have learned that DMI won't mix with oil. If the amount of oil is a large amount of the mix, greater than 50%, a product called Gelmaker was advised.

Check out the thread if you like


Don't know how accurate the information is though.
http://bulkactives.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=questions&action=display&thread=270

Whip--

I got sick of operating at what I felt was 75% and dropped papain last night. I aim to switch to Bromelaine when my order arrives. I should point out that I was using it twice a day and also think I am sensitive to estro since using PM. The good thing is I seem to rebound quickly and papain is in the estro minor league, not like PM.

gbp--

Yes, I realize now that a lot of my excitement was due to the cosmetic benefit I was largely getting from incorporating the moisturizer as a leave-in. But papain seems to impart a cosmetic glow when mixed with a moistiurizer. Thus I can see hyaluronic acid being a great adjunct to it. Right now I am just using my moistuizer mixed with Azelex cream, after applying Finacea--Azaleic acid overload!

Gibson,

Do you think bromelain is stronger than papain? I used the same papain as you last night for the first time but mixed with emu oil and left overnight. Hair feels strong this a.m. but honestly can't tell a difference between it and the bromelain. Bear in mind I did only one application of each so it is obviously too soon to draw any conclusion.

I think it is necessary to get the enzymes in contact with the scalp for a long enough time and/or penetrating enough to act on the cross linked collagen and calcium deposits. I like Prague's theory for explaining the hardness of the mpb scalp. I know my scalp has certainly gotten harder since I started to thin. I am not so sure about the estrogenic effect of papain being a big factor. As you say it is minor league stuff compared to PM.

Good luck with the bromelain. Keep us updated!

I think Prague used DMSO with the papain topical .. I guess it is likely not to work if it lack penetration.

cpio--

DMSO is entirely not needed for penetration.

huli--

The only form of Bromelaine I have now is mixed with querceten. On Tuesday, I'll have some to work with, and I hope it is equally effective. I think it is entirely likely that others won't note the estro papain. I think had I not the experience with PM, I wouldn't know otherwise.

Hey Gib-

what Bromelain have you ordered?

Ok...one week in. Used an emu oil/bromelain/hyaluronic acid mixture first time, then subsequently have used papain with the emu oil and HA. Applying every other day and leaving on overnight. Of course far to early to really say anything but have found a few things interesting:

1. My hair loss appears to be down with this mixture. Could be just a cycle of reduced loss or it could be just a temporary result of a new treatment. Hopefully it is something that lasts with this treatment. Ridiculously few hairs compared to even a few weeks ago. Should know for sure in a month.

2. My hair feels thicker and more solidly rooted in my head. Anyone have that weak hair feeling? I have often had that in my mpb area while the back/sides feel really strong. Top seems to feel more like sides/back now just thinner.

3. Scalp/hair feels moister and less dried out but does not feel oily.

4. The whole thing is easy to apply. Just pour some emu oil onto a plate, drop in a little papain powder and some HA from a cap and mix with my finger. Then dab on and gently rub into scalp. Washes out well in a.m.

Not sure if I should try with DMSO like Prague appears to have done. Any suggestions on how to dilute it a little if I try that route? I've never used it before and I don't want to try it full strength.

Also I'm curious if anyone else other than Gibson and my are trying this. If so would love to hear your thoughts/ideas/experiences. Thanks.

I have a lot of vellus hair along my hairline and in the thinning areas on my scalp. It's too early to say if they are getting more pigmented. I am really looking for something that can help them turn terminal. I would be laughing then. Hopefully this is it. Time will tell but I would love to be able to say "my hairline is going crazy" like Prague.

Huli thats great to hear.

I should have my papaya oil and papain coming in this week.
I am going to mix it with some DMI to help with absorbtion

I have been using papain for a few days now, mixed with a moisturizer that is 98% aloe vera, and water (to thin it down to a liquid to get through my hair to the scalp). I just added some niacinamide and arginine/ornithine 1 day ago. I also have some HA serum that I bought with HA capsules on iherb. I've been mixing that in with the aloe moisturizer and putting it on my face and hairline as well.

It is too early to tell like you said Huli....but I am noticing similar things. It could just be psychological, or the result of using the moisturizer in my hair. Like you said- hopefully it's not though.

I did take 1/4 tspn internally for 2 days as well. I also wonder if the oral HA that I started at the same time is playing a role.