Dangers of Ionized Water (Kangen Water)

I have been experimenting with ionized water for the last couple of weeks, it has caused serve headaches, brain inflammation, stomach bloating and serve intestinal gas. This has most likely occurred due to the high PH of the water allowing pathogens to overgrow.

Ionized water is only a tool to be used for short period of times, might be used to replenish bad bacteria with good bacteria. e.g taken certain probiotics with the water. It might help with acid reflux, gastritis, etc.. the long term effect on bad bacteria is a huge concern and needs to be addressed somehow.

Ionized water (kangen water) should not be used as a daily drinking water.

Bob

Bob,

This information is false. What you've experienced could have been a detox reaction, as is common with many first time users of ionized water. I and several of my friends have been drinking Kangen water for years with no ill health effects, positive ones actually.

It should also be noted that there is only one manufacturer of water ionizers that produces true "Kangen" water. That company is called Enagic, from Japan. These machines are NOT created equal and the cheaper ionizers, like the one you've linked in your post on ebay, can be detrimental to your health. These cheaper machines are not well built (will rust over time) and do not utilize enough surface area on their diode plates to generate enough ionization to be beneficial to the human body.

If you believe in the health benefits of ionized water, you should give Enagic a shot. None of the other manufacturers to date are worth purchasing at the moment.

Hope this helps,
TG

TrueGround wrote:Bob,

This information is false.  What you've experienced could have been a detox reaction, as is common with many first time users of ionized water.  I and several of my friends have been drinking Kangen water for years with no ill health effects, positive ones actually.

It should also be noted that there is only one manufacturer of water ionizers that produces true "Kangen" water.  That company is called Enagic, from Japan.  These machines are NOT created equal and the cheaper ionizers, like the one you've linked in your post on ebay, can be detrimental to your health.  These cheaper machines are not well built (will rust over time) and do not utilize enough surface area on their diode plates to generate enough ionization to be beneficial to the human body.

If you believe in the health benefits of ionized water, you should give Enagic a shot.  None of the other manufacturers to date are worth purchasing at the moment.

Hope this helps,
TG

No ill effects? So drinking water with a high PH without the minerals is natural? Falsifying the body that your PH has risen without the lack of alkalizing minerals? Changing digestive track Ph levels will allow candida to over grow.

The stomach thrives on acidity. After the food is broken down, then the alkaline phase kicks in. I can't speak about Enagic, but generally the reverse end of most alkalizers would do well.

The only benefit that I can see with alkalizing per se, is a negative charge..and perhaps structured water if it is offered with the unit.

For everyone out there wanting to know the truth about ionised water check out this new website
molecularhydrogeninstitutedotcom

I've got a distiller (heats the water into vapor, then catches the purified water). I use it a lot, but have no
problems with drinking tap water. You can really smell the chlorine, however.

Molecular Mal wrote:For everyone out there wanting to know the truth about ionised water check out this new website
molecularhydrogeninstitutedotcom

And then there's this:


Ionized water
Ionized water is a chemically meaningless term. You can’t ionize water to any degree. You have to add chemicals to it and as a consequence you change the solution’s pH so that it is acidic or alkaline.

Over acidity of the body causes of all sorts of ailments (many of which are listed in the brochure)
To paraphrase Brian Dunning*: There has never been any plausible research to show any connection between these diseases and body acidity, this appears to be completely made up. This is a case of using simplistic terminology to sell a product to the scientifically illiterate.

Even if it were true, our body's acidity is not, in any way, affected by the pH of what we eat or drink. Eating alkaline food stimulates production of acidic digestive enzymes, and eating acidic foods causes the stomach to produce fewer acids. Our body's primary mechanism for the control of pH is to breathe out carbon dioxide, which governs the amount of carbonic acid in the blood.

“Free-radicals”, anti-oxidants and early aging
Again with reference to Brian Dunning*: Although oxidation does contribute to some age-related diseases, consuming antioxidants does not affect normal aging. Even if they did, you wouldn't get them from alkalized water: When water is alkalized, it contains hypochlorites, which are oxidizing agents, i.e. the opposite of what is claimed!

Indeed more recent research is suggesting that anti-oxidants may in fact have the opposite effect to the claims made of the health benefits.

Lactic acid’s impact on sport’s performance
Honestly, this age old exercise myth has been debunked for so long (for at least 40 years) I’m amazed it’s still trotted out. It’s embarrassing to still read it in marketing literature. I suggest becoming acquainted with the role of lactate as a fuel source while exercising, and the “life cycle” of lactic acid. Acidity has nothing to do with delayed onset muscle soreness either, another bogus claim.

A $4000 water filter/ioniser?
I can make exactly the same water by taking regular water and putting in a little sodium hypochlorite, which is pretty easy really, just a few drops of chlorine bleach will do the trick in roughly a 1:4000 ratio, meaning 1 litre of bleach costing 65 cents at Coles will yield me 4000 litres of magic water. Although I think a little sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) would be better than bleach.

I can make an “ioniser” myself for less than $100 with a few bits and pieces lying around the house and from the local Hardware store, and drop in a little salt.

Hexagonal water / smaller clusters of H2O
As per Steven Lower**: This is just nonsense. There is no scientific evidence to support assertions about the existence of water clusters or its beneficial effects on tissue hydration. There is no way that H2O molecules in liquid water can be stabilized or retained in the hexagonal configuration. I suggest reading up on the actual science of water’s structure. It is far more interesting than this load of cobblers.


As for the science links provided in the other email, the majority are just anecdotal reports, which are scientifically meaningless, and/or not relevant to the effects of consumption of such water by humans. There is not one relevant peer review study published in a reputable journal listed. Taking each:

#1 and #2 are pure speculation, findings not supported by evidence
#3 has nothing to do with consumption of such water, but rather vitamin C, strawberries, spinach and red wine
#4 thru #10, #12 & #13, #32 are just anecdotal reports, and are of no or extremely limited scientific value
#14. again is just anecdote and speculation
#15 seems relevant as a double blind placebo controlled study, however it does not appear to have ever been published, nor peer reviewed (it did not appear in my search of published scientific literature). It does not state the composition of the water used— a failure that would probably guarantee rejection by a mainstream medical journal
#16 is just speculation
#17, #18, #20, #22, #23, #24, #27, #28, #34: Rats & mice are not people
#19 #20 are irrelevant – they are about magnesium content of water
#21 needs more investigation
#25 is about sterilising kitchen cutting boards!
#26, #27, #28 are about topical use of such water for wound healing – nothing to do with human consumption
#29 is about flowers!
#30 is about alfalfa!!
#31 is about salmonella in/on chicken
#32 is about cows
#33 is a sports science recommendation on hydration from ACSM which does not even mention reduced water! Indeed it gives plenty of suggestions on what an athlete should do (pretty much the same advice can be found on the AIS website) and it does not involved reduced water
#34 is about distilled water, again nothing to do with reduced water.
#35 - there is no #35

So out of all material listed, there is one study suggesting reasonable science practice (double blind, placebo control), however it does not appear to have been published or peer reviewed (always a bad sign), nor the results replicated by a published study, and one other study that suggests further investigation is warranted (but unless it's published, that won't likely happen).

One needs a body of evidence to demonstrate a claim as plausible and I’m afraid that list is most definitely not a body of evidence. If anything it is clutching at straws to claim so and indeed is a pretty good indicator that supports the null hypothesis.


As to their opening paragraphs:

Here is a "short list" of 35 scientific studies and articles about Kangen Water that were written by reputable scientists from around the world.
As I have shown, there are one, maybe two relevant science studies in that list but neither are peer reviewed or published, always a bad sign.
The reputation of scientists (which isn’t demonstrated in any case) is irrelevant and is what’s known as “an appeal to authority”. What matters is the evidence, and it’s exceptionally thin I’m afraid.

The Science that has made Kangen Water possible began in the 1850's however, over the past 50 years most of it has been carried out in Asia where preventative medicine has long been valued as a superior approach to Western Medicine's health crisis, "fix it after the fact" approach to health care.
Again a classical logical fallacy rolling up an “appeal to tradition” and avoiding the reality that such claims have not yet stood up to proper scientific testing. This is line usually trotted out when one cannot plausibly demonstrate something actually works.
 The history of Asian medicine is one where use of evidence based medicine (“western medicine”) has always been used and preferred where it was available and affordable.
Not a single account of a placebo-controlled clinical study on alkaline/ionized water in humans has ever appeared in a mainstream, peer-reviewed medical journal. If there is 160 years of science, why has not one study stood up to peer review and publication? The answer is most plausibly because they already know the answer, i.e. it doesn’t work. Hence the effort goes into pseudo scientific claims and marketing tricks.

Skeptical people may doubt the validity of the 50 plus years of science that supports drinking Kangen Water. They will cite the noisy prattle of a few self proclaimed "Debunkers and Quackbusters" who for personal reasons decry the proven benefits of drinking Kangen Water .
No, skeptical people are guided by actual evidence and are not fooled by false and misleading claims. I have no reason or personal agenda in reviewing the actual evidence. You asked my opinion, I’ve done my research.
You supplied some document purported to be evidence and I’ve looked through it. If that represent the best evidence, well I’m afraid it’s a pretty lame list. I suspect it was designed to contain some volume to suggest validity – another fallacy known as “Proof by Verbosity”

Are you quoting from Tyler le Barrons molecular hydrogen website?
If so why have you not acknowledged the proven therapeutic benefits of the Moleular Hydrogen which is the active ingredient in ionised water?
Why are you being so misleading?

Molecular Mal wrote: Are you quoting from Tyler le Barrons molecular hydrogen website?
If so why have you not acknowledged the proven therapeutic benefits of the Moleular Hydrogen which is the active ingredient in ionised water?
Why are you being so misleading?

Because I can't find any peer reviewed literature which gives any evidence of ionized water being anything other than quackness?

You cant be serious, surely?
You are definitely mis  leading.
There are hundreds of peer reviewed studies on Hydrogen Rich Water, ie, ionized water.
Stop hiding behind the term ionized water
.molecularhydrogeninstitute dot com/core-information/dummies-guide-to-hydrogen-gas/

As stated its the H2 in the ionized water that gives the water the therapeutic benefits

1 H2 can easily diffuse into the subcellular compartments and scavenge cytotoxic oxygen radicals, protecting the DNA, RNA and proteins from oxidative stress.

2 H2 triggers activation or up regulation of additional anti oxidant enzymes, eg glutathione, superoxide  dismutase, catalase, etc and or cytoprotective proteins o the body.

3 H2 is a novel signalling molecule that an alter cell signalling, cell metabolism and gene expression. This gives the anti inflammatory, effects, anti allergy effects anti apoptotic effects

Odysseus,
Im waiting for your reply and or apology!
Cheers  

Molecular Mal wrote:Odysseus,
Im waiting for your reply and or apology!
Cheers  

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html

http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/05/water-snakeoil/

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4139

http://www.apswater.com/article.asp?id=198&title=Alkaline+Water+Hoax+It+is+Simple+Science

http://www.cyber-nook.com/water/alteredwater.htm

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1652-magic-water.html

http://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/5925/ez-water-fraud-or-breakthrough

http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2010/02/andreas-moritz-cancer-cures-quack.html

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16400

DHS88 wrote:
"I'm not a scientist. But it seems to me that there are a few problems with this theory.

A. The stomach is highly acidic. Thus, no matter what the alkaline state of what you put in your mouth, it's going to be neutralized by the time it hits the stomach

B. The phrase "pH of the body" seems nonsensical to me. That's like asking "what's the temperature of the Earth" It depends on where you check. It might be -20Fº in Montana but it could be 115ºF in Arizona. Far higher inside the earth. So, in the same way, what does the "pH of the body" mean? It seems to me that the stomach has its own ideal pH.....as does saliva. Urine would have a different pH.

C. If the answer to better health is more alkalinity, why does someone need to spend $4,000 on a special machine? Why not just take some Tums or Rolaids?

What's your take on it?

I think you pretty much nailed it.

Especially the Tums part. That always gets me about the "coral calcium" people. There is nothing special about the calcium in coral calcium. It's merely a marketing gimmick.

The water stuff is a bit of a mixed bag. By the way, lack of peer reviewed literature means absolutely nothing. It's "conventional-ez" for we don't have a clue if it's good or bad, but we want to discredit it.

Adding in the negative ions (negative charge) is primarily an advantage....as for alkalinity I do not agree with it. As stated numerous times in past posts, I would prefer to use the acid end of the device.

However, some people do benefit (short-term) from alkaline devices....yet there is a point of diminishing returns.

Structured water is also advantageous, we get it naturally from clouds (struck by lightening)...when it goes through 90 degree pipes, it loses its structure. That structure is improves osmotic drive into cells (better hydration).

There you go again avoiding my question. Posting all the usual negative websites and not acknowledging the truthful ones.
I asked you to comment on the scientific fact, that Molecular Hydrogen is the therapeutic benefit of alkaline water.
You clearly do not understand the benefits of H2 and have an agenda for not wanting to share the truth with followers of this website.
So for everyone else who wants to know the truth, you can find it here
wwwdotmolecularhydrogeninstitutedotcom

I also have no interest in selling products or promoting sites which have no value whatsoever.

I'll await your apology for wasting my valuable time.

You are kidding. Molecular hydrogen is the future of health care and disease prevention and you don't want to know about, learn about or share it.
How unbelievably ignorant cant you be.
Anyone that reads the information here www.molecularhydrogeninstitute.com can clearly understand the importance of H2
Show me one single link that refutes the benefits of H2!
If not stop being so misleading to followers of this website.

Molecular Mal wrote:You are kidding. Molecular hydrogen is the future of health care and disease prevention and you don't want to know about, learn about or share it.
How unbelievably ignorant cant you be.
Anyone  that reads the information here www.molecularhydrogeninstitute.com can clearly understand the importance of H2
Show me one single link that refutes the benefits of H2!
If not stop being so misleading to followers of this website.

All of the links above, written by chemists and scientists, discount any effect of ionized water, other than needlessly emptying your wallet.

In the meantime, I apologize to the "followers of this website" for being so misleading. . .

http://www.molecularhydrogeninstitute.com/2013/12/20/ionized-water-are-you-skeptical/


Yes, previous marketing and even some current marketing of ionised water has been misleading, which is exactly why the above site was created.
The site is owned by a double Professor in Biochemistry and Physiology.
Why don't you do the right thing by yourself and the flowers of this website and ask questions on that website and then copy and paste your replies here?

http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v13/n6/abs/nm1577.html



Molecular hydrogen (ionised water) as discussed in a peer reviewed and well respected journal.
Enjoy

I'm not a fan of over priced alkaline products.....

However I do believe in negatively charged hydrogen ions and structured water. Not the alkaline part and not the price.

You can get a variety of machines that will give you alkaline water. Just as you can find a variety of machines that will give you Hydrogen Rich alkaline water.
Some people see the need for a machine that produces a variety of pH water. Others just want a machine that produces just the drinking water.
Hence, the variation in the prices. Personally, the machine I have is awesome. My health is fantastic, from drinking the water and because of the other pH waters from my machine, my home is chemically free.
Each to their own.

If you want alkalinity, take a teaspoon of Bob's Red Mill baking soda in some water and slam it. Cheap, and immediate relief for stomach acid. That said, if you're getting stomach acid, you are eating the wrong foods. Listen to your body!