If my problems are 100 % related to DHT (sebum, BPH)

Then do I want to address this problem with things like Stinging Nettle, pygeum and saw palmetto?

The recommended supps on this forum don't address DHT, more thyroid and that aspect.

Because the general paradigm at the forum is that treating hair loss naturally is most effective if you address the most upstream cause, and that DHT is not it. If hair loss were a riot, DHT is participating but wasn't the one who instigated the crowd to begin with.

Its the philosophy that if you have a dam break a few miles up river, its more effective to fix the break than to try and surround your house with sandbags a few miles downriver.

It seems as though inflammatory processes and oxidative stress tend to turn up the enzymatic pathways that produce DHT. Treating the DHT aspect probably can and will help hair, but only marginally. And most of the truly effective ways of combating DHT present with sides that are worse than hair loss. Most guys here would probably rather have a functioning dick than a little more hair than they're starting with.

AS54 wrote:Most guys here would probably rather have a functioning dick than a little more hair than they're starting with.

Do all DHT-inhibitors have sexual side effects? I know finasteride and saw palmetto have been known to cause erectile dysfunction and gyno. However, its my (limited) understanding that stinging nettle root actually increases testosterone but limits the conversion of it to DHT, and that there are no known sexual side effects. Furthermore, would topical applications of, say, saw palmetto on the scalp result in the same side effects as oral ingestion? My assumption would be no, but I have no clue.

I think you are right.

With the drugs, you're dealing with something much more potent. The inhibition will be greater but so will the side effects.

As far as topical application of saw palmetto, I'm not sure you are going to have enough inhibition to say so, probably due to a lack of absorption. If you were able to get absorption, perhaps using a proper vehicle like DMSO, you might have an effect and it could be worth a try. I've never heard of sexual sides from topical application. If anyone has, I'd be interested to know. The problem is you need a potent extract, and a good deal of the products might not be conducive to that.

As far as nettle root, I've heard those effects you mentioned spoken of numerous times in other forums. My experience with nettle didn't corroborate this. And I haven't seen the actual research to support this. Again, its one of those things that may be worth a try, but in my experience, was money down the drain.

As45 are you saying blocking dht is like putting sandbags around your house in the example you gave?

Yup. It can work, but not as well as stopping the flood to begin with.

Are the main supplements the same as the ones on the guide?  Or have they changed some?  I don't agree personally with addressing hairloss with things like resvertrol and anti-oxidants.  That's just a personal theory of mine after reading hundreds of pubmed articles.  I don't buy the oxidative theory to things.  

Iodine is an interesting one but I get extreme side effects from it.  I also get side effects from oral vit D, so i use suntanning salons in the winter.

Right now I'm supplementing fermented cod liver oil/butter blend, minerals(including lithium) high dose magnesium, and an additional vitamin mk4 at 5 - 10 mg a day.

An antioxidant might not be the solution by itself, but I'm interested to know why you don't put any weight on them?

xztop123, excessive DHT may be a problem but that's due to low SHBG which is low in all balding people - that's why they have so much body hair - and the reason it is low is because of low thyroid. I suspect low thyroid is caused by heavy metal toxicity. First step here is to do the barnes basal temperature test. Google it. Test yourself and report back the results.

AS54 wrote:An antioxidant might not be the solution by itself, but I'm interested to know why you don't put any weight on them?

Well I phrased myself poorly. I meant to say that I don't believe in non-essential nutrients as anti-oxidants(such as resveratrol). I would rather treat oxidative pathways with vitamin E, zinc ect.

moby wrote:xztop123, excessive DHT may be a problem but that's due to low SHBG which is low in all balding people - that's why they have so much body hair - and the reason it is low is because of low thyroid. I suspect low thyroid is caused by heavy metal toxicity. First step here is to do the barnes basal temperature test. Google it. Test yourself and report back the results.

I went to a functional medicine doc, he preformed extensive thyroid tests and even checked them for subclinical ranges.  Thyroid was surprisingly OK

All of the cell signalling involving DHT would take years to begin to understand, and after a lifetime we probably still wouldn't grasp it all.

How would I connect DHT to inflammation? Nf-KB would be one way, and hypoxia/infection is another.

DHT has signalling effects independent and dependent on the androgen receptor. Independently DHT has been shown to increase COX-2 activity and inflammation in vascular tissue, perhaps one reason why men have higher incidence of coronary artery disease. Also independently, DHT has been shown to LOWER inflammation in the presence of LPS and hypoxia.

The majorly confusing thing is when we get to transcription. DHT often forms complexes with other molecules, like NF-kB in order to initiate transcription. NF-kB is like the gateway molecule to the inflammatory response. Any inflammatory trigger is usually acting through NF-kB. So any inflammation whatsoever is going to increase levels of NF-kB, and in the presence of DHT you are going to get altered inflammatory responses.

And then you have to look at all of the hormones that regulate levels of DHT. Things like cortisol and progesterone.

DHT lowers the levels of proteins that inhibit Nf-KB, so you are getting a stronger inflammatory response, or a more sensitive inflammatory response. That's how I'd tie DHT into inflammation, and how we can help our chances by lowering overall inflammatory triggers.

At the end of that inflammatory cascade (not even sure what the antigen is in hairloss, still don't get it) within the cell you start getting the prostaglandin signalling, which is where we then get hair loss. Connecting the dots is a ridiculous task though.

But really that is stupid oversimplification.

Nice as45.

Moby, you say low shgb is reason why there's so much body hair
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "so much"?

It's funny as myself and my brother who's 10 years younger than me have hairy legs in a similar pattern.

I see body hair as healthy. For instance if I started to lose body hair in a certain pattern I'd think something was wrong.
paradoxically I can't deny my observation of hairy men over 40 who aren't bald/balding.

xztop123 wrote:I went to a functional medicine doc, he preformed extensive thyroid tests and even checked them for subclinical ranges.  Thyroid was surprisingly OK

So did I, everything checked out normal for me too even though I knew my thyroid was low. The only reliable test for thyroid status is barnes basal temperature test.

Live forever,

SHBG bounds to DHT making it inactive. When SHBG is low, less of it is bound thus you have more androgens floating around which equals body hair. PCOS women have low SHBG and they complain about body hair. Wikipedia entry itself about SHBG notes that low SHBG is associated with AA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_hormone-binding_globulin

Cheers Moby,

One thing that interests me...[warning! over-simplification]

in short if a mans excess hairiness is due to low shbg, then if said man
raises his shbg would we expect to see a reduction of body hair?

I also thought as men age test drops and shbg rises? = hair loss?

What's the latest, what did you decide and how are you getting on now?

I think its less to do with the amount of free and unbound test at that point, and more to do with the ratio of all of the steroids to one another. Test is decreasing significantly relative to estrogen, and progesterone and cortisol are also typically decreasing.

I see, yeah after reading a few things it does seem like the game is different for certain age groups.
One thing for sure, I notice younger men seem to lose hair rapidly. (Below 25) all friends who I know who started losing below 25, after at least 2 years had to shave.
BUT they didn't try do anything about it.

I know people who are in their late 20's that rapidly loose hair too.

Yeah theseeker86, I should always add "my experience" to what I put.
It's definitely not gospel for the under 25s, just something I've noticed.

Yeah, I think age does play a factor, but sometimes I think the path of hair loss is just inevitable and unpredictable

I think senescent hair loss is pretty much healthy as we age.
So I'd agree hair loss, like wrinkles etc...is inevitable.

but then there's the degree at which these things occur
that determines it natural in my opinion.

so I declare all cases of mpb to be un-natural.

If I fully bought into the old theory then I'd feel
really helpless.

what I'm looking into now, it's almost like it's the tissue
surrounding the follicle that has the problem that then
causes the follicle to start shrinking. as CS says
it's inflammation. although I far from understand everything,
this makes enough sense for me to know that there's
something we can do about it...

Not sure if anyone with more knowledge wants to come correct
me here, but am I right in believing that this battle is more to
do with the actual local surrounding tissues and not the actual
follicle.

I think you are right to an extent. The problem really boils down to the immune system cell infiltrate and the resulting wound healing response. This is the source of inflammation and the scarring. So you could place the blame there. That gradual buildup of scar tissue and depletion of stem cell in the DP is what causes the hair to thin.

But the immune system requires a target, or an offender, if you will. This is where I'm still unclear as to the situation occurring in MPB. With an autoimmune form of hair loss there doesn't seem to be any "true" offender, i.e. the immune system is attacking its own cell lines. This is the prevailing theory, however, it could easily be that there really is an antigen and the scientific community just hasn't discovered it, or is ignoring it as many would argue.

In MPB there is a similar immune component, but there seem to be different theories as to what is causing the inflammatory trigger. Some argue its a pathogen. Some will say its directly the result of DHT, and there is research to show that DHT can be independently inflammatory. The glycosaminoglycan deposits that form once the process starts are in and of themselves inflammatory so its a vicious cycle. In any event, once the offense begins the immune system is being recruited to come "clean up" and thats where we have our problems.

There is a sea of inflammatory cells that surrounds the follicles after so long. Its why MPB will require a multi-angle approach. For example, the PGD-2 inhibitors being researched right now, might be a key in halting the cascade at a particular signal. That might cut the process off before it begins, or can continue. How that will help someone who has been balding for years, well its hard to know. But the formation of scar tissue buildup (not present in all types of hair loss) is a challenge to deal with by itself.