Zinc misconception-CS please clarify

I have been reading all over the net and on this forum that zinc inhibits DHT. This lead me to supplementing with zinc however i instantly started to lose more hair. This caused me to look more closely on studies and to my surprise apart from the topically applied study i found no studies saying zinc lowers dht, on the contrary, zinc upregulates the androgen receptors, reduce estrogen receptors and raises 5 alpha reductase conversion. Would like to hear your comments

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8613886


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7271365


http://www.popline.org/node/434785

Often DHT and 5-alpha reductase are used interchangeably. However, a high serum DHT is something we want. Because it turns out, it's inversely correlated with hair loss. What is correlated with hair loss though is levels of 5-alpha reductase.

The idea here is that elevated levels of 5-AR will increase DHT in target tissue, yet a high serum level of DHT is a positive not a negative thing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3207614

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/126/4/842.long

Also, high androgens is something we want. The very nature of aging is declining hormone levels.

Hope this helps.

Zinc hasn't increased my hair loss at all.

CS --

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe YAER is actually asking whether zinc increases tissue sensitivity to androgens, thereby potentially accelerating MPB? This is something I've often wondered myself.

zerogravity wrote:CS --

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe YAER is actually asking whether zinc increases tissue sensitivity to androgens, thereby potentially accelerating MPB? This is something I've often wondered myself.

Zinc is pro hair.  It will down regulate estrogen receptors (estrogen receptor alpha) and actually make hair less "sensitive" to androgens.  Androgens aren't bad for hair imo.  From my limited understanding, estrogen receptor alpha is the culprit that sets off the catalyst of immune reactions to DHT.

Zinc alters the immune system in a way that is favorable to hair growth.  Google zinc sulphate and Alopecia Areata.  One of the most important minerals, along with magnesium, for a MPB sufferer to be replete with.

I believe it is a fact that zinc increases androgen receptors and sensitivity as it is clearly shown in the studies, moreover i have suffered a shed and increased facial oilness and acne in 3 days of supplementation. If you google "ZMA" which is a supplement containing zinc and magnesium you will be astounded by the number of reports of it causing hair loss not onlu exclusive to bodybuilders but normal people who use it. I have cut out the zinc and my skin is much much much smoother and shedding stopped than 3 days ago.

"(DHT) (Habib 1978) and that androgen receptor sites are significantly decreased in the reproductive organs of zinc-deficient rats (Chung et al. 1986)"

YAER wrote:moreover i have suffered a shed and increased facial oilness and acne in 3 days of supplementation.

Hasn't done that to me. What Zinc are you using? Optizinc?

YAER wrote:I believe it is a fact that zinc increases androgen receptors and sensitivity as it is clearly shown in the studies, moreover i have suffered a shed and increased facial oilness and acne in 3 days of supplementation. If you google "ZMA" which is a supplement containing zinc and magnesium you will be astounded by the number of reports of it causing hair loss not onlu exclusive to bodybuilders but normal people who use it. I have cut out the zinc and my skin is much much much smoother  and shedding stopped than 3 days ago.

ZMA will actually decrease DHT.  ZMA has a ton of b6.  Zinc with b6 is actually a strong 5ar inhibitor.  I used to take ZMA and what I noticed with it was a dramatic increase in T but also an increase in estrogen.  The stuff completely shut down my DHT (although at the time I had just come off of finasteride so I was probably more sensitive to 5ar inhibition).

IMO, what's happening is that the ZMA is increasing your T a lot but your body is converting a lot of it to estradiol (for probably a number of reasons).  Estrogens that stimulate estrogen receptor alpha in combination with DHT will produce the effects you described.  Androgens by themselves will not.  Decreasing estrogen is the answer.  

Stop taking ZMA and try using zinc aspartate/gluconate and magnesium orotate as separate supplements.  Another good option is transdermal zinc sulfate and magnesium chloride (that's what I use).  Zinc and magnesium will detoxify and inhibit estrogen and cortisol while increasing Testosterone, DHEA, and IGF-1.  All good things for skin and hair.

Also, if you're interested, look into selenium and iodine.

Funny because I also always feel that if I take a lot of zinc, the effect is not good on my hair, or skin. Zinc clearly inhibits aromatase and E2 is good for frontal hair (in men).. I really never could make it work for hair or skin (internally), same with mag chloride (externally). Possibly hyperandrogenicity (taking finasteride already)?

CausticSymmetry wrote:Often DHT and 5-alpha reductase are used interchangeably. However, a high serum DHT is something we want.  Because it turns out, it's inversely correlated with hair loss. What is correlated with hair loss though is levels of 5-alpha reductase.

The idea here is that elevated levels of 5-AR will increase DHT in target tissue, yet a high serum level of DHT is a positive not a negative thing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3207614

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/126/4/842.long

Also, high androgens is something we want. The very nature of aging is declining hormone levels.

Hope this helps.

So what you're suggesting, sighting studies, is that zinc is a positive supplement that can raise levels of DHT and Testosterone, also a good thing, correct? However 5-AR is not so good for hair and should somehow be kept low for the benefit of hair growth, correct?

ppm wrote:

Funny because I also always feel that if I take a lot of zinc, the effect is not good on my hair, or skin. Zinc clearly inhibits aromatase and E2 is good for frontal hair (in men).. I really never could make it work for hair or skin (internally), same with mag chloride (externally). Possibly hyperandrogenicity (taking finasteride already)?

That has not been my experience at all.  I don't think E2 is good for hair.  There are two types of estrogen receptors and they do very different things.  Estrogen receptor alpha and estrogen receptor beta.  Beta is the one that is good for hair and skin.  Estrone binds to ER-A, estradiol can bind to both ER-A and ER-B.  Estriol binds solely to ER-B.  Estriol ( more specifically the stimulation of ER-B) is the estrogen responsible for any benefits to hair.

I took finasteride in the past (took for it 3 years, been off for 2 1/2) and it didn't seem to do much for my hair.  Lowering/modulationg estrogen has helped my frontal hair much more than lowering DHT ever did.  Zinc aspartate really helps my hair and with zinc gluconate I noticed better skin (smaller pores, smoother).  

I would attribute your results to finasteride use as it indirectly inhibits estrogen receptor beta expression by inhibiting 3b-adiol. Normally,  zinc decreases estrogen receptor alpha expression while increasing beta expression.  This occurs via aromatase inhibition and the increase in 3b-adiol formation from DHT.  3b-adiol stimulates estrogen receptor beta and is converted by the 17HSD enzymes.  Zinc, along with thyroxine, increase 17HSD.

Zinc is always good. Boosts testosterone, lowers 5AR/DHT and improves immune system.
baller234 - I've contacted the administrators and you're going to be banned real soon

moby wrote:Zinc is always good. Boosts testosterone, lowers 5AR/DHT and improves immune system.
baller234 - I've contacted the administrators and you're going to be banned real soon

why would I be banned? I've done nothing but share my experiences with zinc. Do a little research before you trash ppl for no reason.

baller234,

I am referring to this* research, still better than guessing around, according to which it seems like E2 exerts different action on different scalp hair locations in men.


* http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-19109-page-0-category-3-order-last_answer.html

Estrogen itself is very good for hair, the negative thing though is estrogen dominance. This causes your prolactin to rise and prolactin is known to increase androgen receptors, androgen sensitivity and activates 5ar, this is the main reason for reflex hyperandrogencity and why finateride loses its effectiveness. When you are estrogen dominant, testosterone can no longer match the rise in estrogen and keep you in your manly state so an increase in prolactin happens. Iv literally stopped my hair loss and cleared my skin by using dostinex to lower my high prolactin. I will also use only one zinc tablet a week to boost my testosterone, lower prolactin and inhibit aromatase to keep me from feminization. Progesterone is also beneficial to lower prolactin,5ar and balance estrogen and its drop after the 30's and 40's is what accelerates baldness. Prolactinoma is known to cause baldness and can be triggered more by minoxidil. Also check you ferritin levels, when ferritin drops prolactin rises and detriments your hair, this is why low ferritin people suffer from hair loss. I think prolactin is the missing link and its the bodies reaction to high estrogen. I strongly advise you to use black seed oil(A.K.A Black cumin seed,Kalonji, Nigella Sativa), i swear to god this is the strongest topical i ever tried. It stopped my hair loss in a few days as it inhibits the crth2 pathway for pgd2, lowers tnf alpha, 5ar inhibitor and lowers androgen receptors. Also use it orally with a lemon and water. It is dubbed as the "cure for all diseases except death" by our beloved prophet Mohamad (pbuh). It raises insulin sensitivity, treats hypothyroid, treats cancers, inflammation and many many more. http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/black-seed-remedy-everything-death .After years and years of research i have finally found my solution and advise any one to have their prolactin and ferritin levels checked. This paragraph is the most valuable piece of information i can ever share.

YAER wrote:Estrogen itself is very good for hair, the negative thing though is estrogen dominance. This causes your prolactin to rise and prolactin is known to increase androgen receptors, androgen sensitivity and activates 5ar, this is the main reason for reflex hyperandrogencity and why finateride loses its effectiveness. When you are estrogen dominant, testosterone can no longer match the rise in estrogen and keep you in your manly state so an increase in prolactin happens. Iv literally stopped my hair loss and cleared my skin by using dostinex to lower my high prolactin. I will also use only one zinc tablet a week to boost my testosterone, lower prolactin and inhibit aromatase to keep me from feminization. Progesterone is also beneficial to lower prolactin,5ar and balance estrogen and its drop after the 30's and 40's is what accelerates baldness. Prolactinoma is known to cause baldness and can be triggered more by minoxidil. Also check you ferritin levels, when ferritin drops prolactin rises and detriments your hair, this is why low ferritin people suffer from hair loss. I think prolactin is the missing link and its the bodies reaction to high estrogen. I strongly advise you to use black seed oil(A.K.A Black cumin seed,Kalonji, Nigella Sativa), i swear to god this is the strongest topical i ever tried. It stopped my hair loss in a few days as it inhibits the crth2 pathway for pgd2, lowers tnf alpha, 5ar inhibitor and lowers androgen receptors. Also use it orally with a lemon and water. It is dubbed as the "cure for all diseases except death" by our beloved prophet Mohamad (pbuh). It raises insulin sensitivity, treats hypothyroid, treats cancers, inflammation and many many more. http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/black-seed-remedy-everything-death .After years and years of research i have finally found my solution and advise any one to have their prolactin and ferritin levels checked. This paragraph is the most valuable piece of information i can ever share.

Agreed. Prolactin is terrible of hair not to mention over all well being. As you said, zinc lowers prolactin. Zinc has been nothing but positives for me.

Interesting about ferritin levels. I remember a few years back mine were low (however I was on fin and spiro at the time). Perhaps Humifulvate would correct this? It's suppose to balance out iron levels. Something I will look into further.

lets move the estrogen discussion here if you dont mind and leave this for experiences with zinc. Zinc lowers prolactin at the expense of lowering estrogen. Its all linked.

https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t9304-estrogen-dominance#94709

ppm wrote:


baller234,

I am referring to this* research, still better than guessing around, according to which it seems like E2 exerts different action on different scalp hair locations in men.


* http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-19109-page-0-category-3-order-last_answer.html

Unless I'm not understanding something this seems to support what I was saying. Estrogen receptor expression determines whether or not estradiol will be beneficial or detrimental to scalp hair. Estradiol's affinity for estrogen receptor alpha and beta is equal. Beta is the one we want though.