Question about zinc

I have recently started taking a multi that has 15mg of zinc in it. I have read that zinc has a DHT blocking effect which concerns me as I have had a very sensitive history of quick onset sexual sides with DHT inhibitors.

Does anyone have any personal experience with taking internal zinc? Are there studies out there which say it *actually* lowers DHT? Should I be worried with 15mg?

Thanks!

Zinc deficiency is more common than suggested by mainstream. Many with blocked detox pathways - methylation cycle, accumulate heavy metals and use them instead of zinc. While starting supplementing it, zinc will start replacing those heavy metals which will start to migrate over the body untill being excrated as well as many imune processes can come back ''online''. A chlorella is gentle detoxifier and can be use with zinc supplementation for the HM reason. Feeling worse before better can be also expected. If detox pathways are still blocked, active vitamins of B6, B12 and active-folate, can be taken to help start cycle again. However before going into something really radical, testing is needed.

Test for indicating problems can be done by analysing urine for testing excess kryptopyrolles - the reason why your body is excreting excess zinc, or better, test the genes regarding MTHFR. Use google for more info.

I dont know what happens with DHT while taking zinc supplements. Maybe CS can comment it.

Supplementing zinc will also require keeping other minerals in balance, especially copper. If one has gray hair, this can be a good indicator for the need for restoring copper metabolism. Also magnesium, molybdenum and manganese require attention based on particular physiology of the individual. Vitamin C and/or ALA (bewere if severe HM toxicity) can be great option for restoring copper to it's proper form or copper cleanse.

15mg of zinc is not a big dosage. Lyme, autism and people with severe neuro diseases take 250mg of highly absortive zinc supps in order to give the body what it needs.


CS, can you write a sentence or two regarding pyrolluria and MTHFR and it's connection with hairloss?
I think my hair benefited a lot while on B6, B12 and actifolate. I am still avoiding gluten, eat clean and take various antioxidants (quercetine, resveratrol, curcumin) and cleansing agents (chlorella + humifulvate) along with the treatment.

Thanks, bee.

If maybe anthony or CS could comment on the whole zinc lowering 5 alpha reductase thing and opinions on its effect on DHT?

Here is the study which shows zinc to lower reductase. My question is, is "3 or 9 mmol/l" used in this essay equivalent to high high intakes of oral zinc in the real world? Like would I have to be taking 250-300mg zinc to achieve this reductase lowering effect mentioned in the study? Note sure how the numbers used correlate with the real world.

Thanks in advance!


Study: 

nhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin by zinc and azelaic acid. 
Stamatiadis D, Bulteau-Portois MC, Mowszowicz I. 
Source 
Laboratoire de Biochimie B, Hôpital Necker-Enfants-Malades, Paris, France. 
Abstract 
The effects of zinc sulphate and azelaic acid on 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin were studied using an in vitro assay with 1,2[3H]-testosterone as substrate. When added at concentrations of 3 or 9 mmol/l, zinc was a potent inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase activity. At high concentrations, zinc could completely inhibit the enzyme activity. Azelaic acid was also a potent inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase; inhibition was detectable at concentrations as low as 0.2 mmol/l and was complete at 3 mmol/l. An additive effect of the two inhibitors was observed. Vitamin B6 potentiated the inhibitory effect of zinc, but not of azelaic acid, suggesting that two different mechanisms are involved. When the three substances were added together at very low concentrations which had been shown to be ineffective alone, 90% inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity was obtained. If this inhibition is confirmed in vivo, zinc sulphate combined with azelaic acid could be an effective agent in the treatment of androgen related pathology of human skin.

Bumpity bump

Beebrox - To save some time, here are some posts about Porphyria


https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t3155p15-kfc-double-down


https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t3422p90-what-really-causes-insulin-resistance-exposed


There is a condition (Porphyria) that is generally unrecognized, except in the most severe cases where tests will register a "positive" reading. In other words, the reference range is so extreme, physicians never flag it, so to them it is ignored.

This condition is called Porphyria. Unfortunately most cases are sub-clinical, but what makes these cases unique is because they thrive on a high carbohydrate diet and low fat. When a patient with porphyria has a mouth full of metal, they will no longer have trouble with it, if they eat this diet.

Of course, most people do not have Porphyria, so if you find yourself doing better on a high carb, low fat diet, this is a possibility.

Producing heme is a problem in porphyria, and it also involves MTHFR. Summing it up, it's a prelude to heart disease or other problems.

For the rest of us, say people like myself who need meat and fat, the way to deal with heavy metals is producing sufficient glutathione.

Patients with prophyria and methylmalonic acidosis, be it secondary to an enzyme defect or an impairment in adenosylcorbalamin synthesis, a cobalt deficiency, or a B12 deficiency, may suffer from a wide range of neuropsychiatric disorders including depression, self mutilation and suicide. The common metabolic denominator appears to be an energy deficit caused by disorders in the metabolism of succinyl CoA.

Succinyl CoA is one of the intermediate metabolic products in the Krebs cycle being synthesised from alpha ketoglutarate and metabolised into malate and thence oxalacetate. Succinyl Co A is also the substrate for porphyrin and heme synthesis which competes with the Krebs cycle for succinyl CoA. Succinyl Co A accumulates in tissues that are deprived of their blood supply because metabolism within the Krebs cycle is inhibited. Resynthesis of ATP by oxidative phosphorylation is, therefore, also impaired creating an energy deficit. Succinyl CoA may also accumulate in porhyrria because of the interruption in that metabolic pathway. An accumulation of succinyl CoA in porphyria may, in accordance with the law of mass action, inhibit the synthesis of succinyl CoA from alpha ketoglutarate and thus also inhibit ATP resyntheis by oxidative phosphorylation and create an energy defict. An accumulation of succinyl CoA should also inhibit synthesis of succinyl CoA from methylmalonyl CoA which is catalysed by the apoenzyme methylmalonyl CoA mutase. The co- enzyme that converts this inactive apoenzyme into an active holoenzyme is adenosylcobalamin. Adenosylcobalamin is synthesised from the uroporphyrogen III generated in porhyrrin metabolism. Acting as a coenzyme for this reaction is one of the two known actions of cobalamin (B12) in humans, the other being a co-enzyme for the apoenzyme methionine synthase which catalyses the conversion of homocysteine into methionine.

More info:

http://www.mhprofessional.com/downloads/products/0071439153/SarafogluCh17.pdf

CS, the multi I use has 35 mg of zinc.  Do you think that's within the safe range?

Thanks for the feedback anthony/immortal. 

Anthony, so you dont think 15 mg could have adverse effects on 5-ar which would lead to a decrease in DHT? Everytime I used something that has the effect of lowering DHT I always seem to get sexual sides pretty quick..

sizzlinghairs
Thanks for the feedback anthony/immortal. 

Anthony, so you dont think 15 mg could have adverse effects on 5-ar which would lead to a decrease in DHT? Everytime I used something that has the effect of lowering DHT I always seem to get sexual sides pretty quick..

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Taking 15 mg of zinc is optimal. If you want your LH to work to help signal more testosterone and keep estrogen at bay...would take it. You're not going to lose libido from it, just the opposite if anything.

Tnx for the information, CS... It took me a while to reply due plenty new info required additional googling.

I've just gone through the threads and the PDF and it was interesting reading although i cant relate to polyphyria to the point i'd think as sort of major contributor of my story towards health. However from what i've read and personal experience with actifolate, methyl-b12 and p5p, i think i experience the majority of the improvements due vitamin b6 as p5p. I've been taking all of the ''methylation combo'' due lack of info of how to test it properly and i did let the chances opened to find out this way. I however don't crave sweets or carbs, i am rather protein and fat consumer. Never worked good on sugar, including at times before amalgam was tragically put in my mouth.


Still, in the last few months my nails and hair are in best form in a long time, and i believe huge amounts of zinc (slowly increased the dosage up to 150mg/day with b6, and vit A) have the main contribution stating i have problems with HPU/pyrolluria. Hair-wise i am stagnating for the last year or so, but i made the terminals thicker, and my girl is not the only one who noticed it.

What makes it all interesting from genetic perspective also my mum has similar problems, and she took it to another level with developing carpal tunnel and kindey stones. Coenzimated B6 was as a big help for both of problems, and she managed to reverse it naturally with out convencional treatments. It wasnt only B6 she'd put in his mouth, though.


Speaking about zinc and it's connection with B6 is what interest me more - also its contribution to the methylation processes and neurotransmitter synthesis. Do you have any additional knowledge which describes HPU/pyrolluria more in depth the way the link takes care of the folate and cobalamin metabolism? (I've already searched the IH boards...)

Also i wonder what's the whole reason for taking zinc orotate out from Decalcify? It contained 15mg. I like orotate form more than picolinate or gluconate form.

For the others, here is a short introduction to HPU/pyrolluria from quick google search:

http://www.lyme.ws/dietritch-klinghardt-m-d-s-presentation-on-hpu-kpu-pyroluria-lyme-disease-and-autism/ - if you highly suspect personal hpu problems, 2 hours is worth of your time...
http://www.thehealingpartnership.org/pdf/pyroluria_handout.pdf
http://naturalinsight.hubpages.com/hub/Pyroluria-A-Hidden-Disorder
http://www.buzznutrition.com/BuzzNutrition/Pyroluria_files/buzznutrition%20protocol%20notes-pyroluria_for%20website.pdf

I will be getting results for my HPU back soon so i will be able to tell more about it latter.

I'd be also interested in some genetic testing on the MTHFR issues. Do anybody know a good source for such kind of tests or have any experiences with the team of dr. Lynch below?

http://mthfr.net/mthfr-testing-mthfr-test-kit/2012/01/25/

I second CS last post, if anything I tend to notice a virilzing effect from the higher doses of zinc, especially when combining it with the fat soluble vitamins. I never experienced anything but libido boosts when doing this. For a kick try this one out (a modified Ferris inspiration): before bed take 50 mg zinc, 5,000-10,000 IU vitamin A, 5,000 IU vitamin D, 2-3 free-range chicken egg yolks, and a teaspon of melted grass-fed butter, and 3 brazil nuts. Take this all together (mix the egg yolks and butter together and just shoot it). Combine this with something like d-aspartic acid and/or a supplement containing testofen and a small amount of boron. 

Try that for a couple of days and see what it does for your libido. Engage in some lifting on those same days, or something competitive. You'll notice it haha.

Wow I have been taking way too much Zinc!! hope I haven't caused any problems, I was just going off of intuition and supplementing 50mgs a day now for a while.

NY,

Zinc is generally pretty safe even at supposedly high dosages. I've taken 100 mg safely and consistently. There is evidence to suggest dosages of 200mg are safe. KPU patients take even higher doses.

You'd probably recognize if you were taking too much, as the body tends to reject it in the form of bad stomach upset, diarrhea and cramping. You'd also probably experience some symptoms of immune suppression, i.e. getting sick more often. That said, I don't think there's a need for a healthy individual to be taking 250 mg of zinc daily, not at all, but even at 100 mg daily (give yourself a few days off, I like to cycle any nutrient I'm taking in high doses) you'd probably be safe.

Just remember, and CS stresses this often, taking supplemental amounts of any single nutrient often requires co-supplementation with other nutrients (copper in this case; 1 mg copper for every 15 mg zinc) in order to prevent imbalances.

So I wouldn't be able to get that 1mg through diet? With 15 mg, is it a definite that an imbalance would be created?

No, it surely isn't definite. These things involve a lot of grey areas, for example, people's dietary intakes vary, their ability to absorb nutrients varies, and the specific amount they need of any given nutrient can vary depending on the underlying conditions.

The 1 mg copper per 15 mg zinc is just a guideline, pure and simple. It would probably cover your bases.

But for example, if I'm supplementing 100 mg zinc, I probably don't want to supplement 6-7 mg copper every day along with it. When I'm going high dose, I tend to go a day on and then a day off. The diet tends to balance these things out. This allows my diet to do some work and rebalance things. Obviously supplementing any single nutrient by itself is not the same as getting it in a balanced way from a whole food, which is the way our guts have adapted to encountering packets of nutrients.

So while I may be exceeding the recommendations for zinc on a particular set of days, in the LONG RUN, I'm staying balanced. And the long-run is the important thing here. On any given day, no matter what you do (so long as it isn't drastic) its probably not going to have a long term effect. When it comes to diet and supplementation what is more important is how you average out over a longer period of time.

What you've got to consider with the metals is the body isn't just dumping them like it would, say a large dose of b-vitamin. These metals are recirculated via the intestines. When supplementing, you are more or less contributing to your endogenous "stores" of the mineral. Its not like vitamin C or B where what you take is generally in the toilet by day's end. The body will keep the store that it requires, secrete the rest in the GI tract to release in the stool. There are things that can interfere with that reabsorption, however, like inflammation, phytates in food, or poor fat absorption. Zinc deficiency isn't uncommon. The point is the body tends to excrete what it doesn't need, hence why too high of a dose will lead to diarrhea. So just be aware of the safe dose for nutrients, and make sure you are getting them all in their necessary amounts over a 3-day average or a weekly average and you'll be fine.

Some people might argue, well if you are going 100 mg every other day, why not just go 50 mg every day. That is fine too. For me its a matter of intuitively, I feel that taking the super dose potentiates higher absorption and I'm better able to saturate the system by "flooding" it in a sense. This can have practical implications for a lot of things.

But its not necessarily that important to delve into the minutia of it. If you are eating a balanced diet, and staying within the safe ranges of nutrient supplementation you are probably fine. Just make sure if you supplement zinc you are supplementing a few mg of copper. Hitting a mg of copper, or two, in a day isn't that difficult with diet either. Consider that a serving of beef liver generally has around 10mg of copper!

Thanks Anthony. I'm actually a vegetarian but I really try to eat pretty healthy. Lots of Green drinks/smoothies, all organic, etc etc. I was thinking that my diet was healthy enough to get this 1mg of copper in. I would take a multi but they ALL have zinc and I don't want to take more than I am right now. I also haven't seen any 1mg copper supps, all seem to be 1.5 +. Will keep looking I guess.

But at the end of the day, you would definitely still reccomend supping with copper even if a healthy diet is there?

Haha. You caught me online, so I'm here to go back and forth.

It really depends on how high your zinc dosage is and how consistently you are taking that.

If you are taking 15 mg supplementally everyday, and that is all, your diet is probably fine. If you start getting up into higher doses, I might recommend a supplement. Greens are a good source of copper. A lot of plant food is, and if you are eating a diet with a lot of plant food, you are probably getting sufficient amounts of copper.

A supplement with 1.5 mg is fine. Again, 1/2 mg isn't going to make or break it.

At the end of the day, its practically impossible to know what your specific "balance" is for any given mineral, I wish there were easy, reliable ways of getting readouts on that kind of thing. But all you can really do is lookout for deficiency symptoms. In that regard, the best thing you can do is just hedge your bets and be sure your diet is hitting the mark in all of the nutrients. Supplementing a marginal amount of something, such as zinc, isn't going to throw anything off by a large amount. Its when you start getting into the higher doses that its something to watch out for.

Glad I caught you  

Yeah I don't plan on going above 15mg zinc. So you think I would be fine wih just a healthy diet at the end of the day right?

Sure would.

anthonyspencer54 wrote:I second CS last post, if anything I tend to notice a virilzing effect from the higher doses of zinc, especially when combining it with the fat soluble vitamins. I never experienced anything but libido boosts when doing this. For a kick try this one out (a modified Ferris inspiration): before bed take 50 mg zinc, 5,000-10,000 IU vitamin A, 5,000 IU vitamin D, 2-3 free-range chicken egg yolks, and a teaspoon of melted grass-fed butter, and 3 brazil nuts. Take this all together (mix the egg yolks and butter together and just shoot it). Combine this with something like d-aspartic acid and/or a supplement containing testofen and a small amount of boron. 

Try that for a couple of days and see what it does for your libido. Engage in some lifting on those same days, or something competitive. You'll notice it haha.

Lol, anthonyspencer54. Sailing similar waters here. I've been doing really similar, although i dont take vit D, and it's my morning combo.
Butter + semi raw eggs in the basket (to destroy a good percent of avenine, but i let the yorks untouched), allong with some carrots and aspargus is before i take my supps which include zinc, selenium, boron. I dont take aspartic acid in any form, but exercise quite regularly.

A time ago i noticed libido boost from EC.

Well it's actually not true that copper is the only mineral needed for balancing if you take huge amounts of zinc (>100mg). Mangesium, manganese and molydbenum are also the ones to keep them in check. I like the way you think about dosing particular nutrient, however. For copper not many sources are very good. If your copper is green, than be sure to take sufficient amount if vit C to regenerate it to the form the body needs. But also vit C high doses can cause deficiency of calcium and magnesium. Of course one day supplementation wont change much, but for treating chronic diseases also chronic regimens are needed. For example taking 100mg of magnesium every day for magnesium deficient can take a decade to reverse this deficiency. And absorbtion is first to improve. Taking it properly the way nutrients are absorbed may not be enough for somebody. There is where leaky gut and other gut problems should be addressed firstly.

I understand Zinc Glycinate and Gluconate are good bioavailable forms. Does anyone have experience with Zinc Citrate? Looking for a cost effective zinc supp