To sugar or not to sugar?

I have been following the work of Ray Peat for about three years now and as a result, I began incorporating high amounts of sugar in my diet at the end of 2011. At first I followed what most people would consider a strict Peat diet and after about three months, I added more starches and became less strict, similar to what Matt Stone recommends, largely due to hating the limitations of the strict diet. I have consumed a high sugar diet for the last year and a half to little success. For me it is more complicated than good or bad as to what I think of sugar. I think that most of the sugar detractors do not understand why people consume sugar. The anti-stress factor is most significant for me. I cannot deny that sugar has significantly improved my sleep and stress. If I am highly stressed out by something, I find that nothing takes the edge off like sugar does. On the other hand, everything else has become much worse. I have gone from 170 lb at the end of 2011 to 210 lb in just several months. Most of the weight that I gained was during the initial strict Peat period. Since then, I have been a stable 210 lb. The type of weight gain is unique (compared to other overweight friends of mine) in that I have gained no weight on my legs, arms, back or neck, but only my gut, which is rock hard, and my face, which is very puffy. In addition to the weight gain, my liver numbers have gone very high and I have been diagnosed with an enlarged liver and spleen via ultrasound. I also have these freckle-like spots that have developed all over my ankles and lower calves. Plus my teeth feel terrible for the first time in my life. I should say that none of these negatives were there before 2012. I do suspect that my liver had underlying issues before then, but that they did not show up on a CMP before then. I also suspect that these underlying liver issues are why I have responded so differently to a Peat-oriented diet.

I fully realize that many people follow Peat's recommendations and lose weight or at least do not gain weight. I am certainly not trying to bash Peat as I have a lot of respect for his work and who he is as a person. On the other hand, I was told that I was "full of shit" when I told my story to one of the most prominent promoters of Peat's philosophy.

I am sort of stuck in this dilemma where I could cut the sugar (I had never really consumed much sugar until the age of 32 when I started Peat) and my anxiety, stress resistance and sleep will all get worse or keep consuming the sugar with everything above getting worse.

At this point, I would really like to just lessen the sugar from probably about 200 to 300 grams a day to maybe 50 grams a day. My issue is that I need some guidance in how to lower the sugar intake. I find that most of the people offering "advice" on the web about lowering sugar intake really do not understand why people consume sugar. Is there something else that can improve stress tolerance and without sacrificing my weight and my teeth?

All this being said, there are really very few places to go and discuss sugar in an intelligent way. This forum, to me, is one of the few places where people are not going to think I am crazy for thinking that there is a positive side to sugar (something I cannot do on most health forums), but also might be receptive to criticism of it in that context (something I cannot really do on the more dogmatic Peat-oriented forums).

The average American eats 200 grams of sugar a day anyway. It's obviously not working. I never understood the sugar reduces stress theory. Yeah, of course it makes you feel good for a short period of time, that's why people are addicted to it. Cocaine makes you feel good for a short period of time too. The idea that you need to take a highly processed food from a region of the world that none of you came from (south east asia) and ship it over on boats in order to be healthy doesn't make any sense to me.

Would be interesting to see how such a strict plan looks like.
Haven't had the opportunity to assess a strict (or almost any) Peatarian diet plan. :D (or where are such forums?)
On the other hand, there are definitely people (i.e. Fruitarians) who consume much more sugar, for example 1000g carbs from fruits (sugar) a day... and being thin. Possibly fiber is a big factor? As I understand Peat-style is no fiber?
Me too consuming currently about 200g sugars a day (was more, upto 600 from fruit juice), but body fat is <10%, weight very low, muscular..
Eat smaller and smaller portions of sugar maybe?

I had my blood sugar tested yesterday and the results is above average. I was really alarm about it because our family had history on diabetes. For now I've been cutting off my sugar intake so I could somehow get my blood sugar level down.

How much protein are you getting? Are you keeping PUFA below 5g a day? Both of those are extremely important factors in sugar metabolism. Salt is also critical for reducing stress and you might require multiple teaspoons daily.

I agree with Peat on the anti-stress factor with sugar...however, I also agree with rjfnyu about the negatives.

What I do is hit the HFCS (yep, supposedly the bad stuff)...As humans only metabolize about 3 to 5% of it--unlike rats at 50%.

As for the standard sugar, I really limit my quantity, because that does create inflammation that I notice and more of an insulin effect.

My suggestion is to either add Xylitol to coffee or foods (be aware of the stool loosening effects for 2 weeks until flora/enzymes adjusts) or to use HFCS in moderate quantities (more if you exercise heavy).

If one adds sulfur, magnesium, selenium and iodine they can metabolize sugar better. Other minerals might be necessary in other scenarios or individual metabolism needs).

Last, but not least, maximizing antioxidant enzymes is crucial in order to get away with sweeteners, whether it is sugar or HFCS.

Masterjohn was involved with a study (results posted here recently) how antioxidants attenuate the insulin response and really reduce the oxidative effect of carbohydrate metabolism. Really interesting stuff.

CS has been recommending it for years but the combination of R-Lipoic Acid and Acetyl L-Carnitine with meals is basically a solution for making sure that sugar gets to where it needs to, is utilized properly, and has less negative effects on oxidant levels which lowers the insulin response. Overall it helps with utilization of oxygen and makes sure your mitochondria aren't taking a beating.

I think combining this with a B-complex vitamin and something like hesperidin, EGCG, or good ol' vitamin C with every meal and you have a really solid anti-aging strategy and will probably see the most returns on investment than with any other aspect of supplementation, afaic. Used properly sugar is a longevity strategy in my opinion and used in conjunction with these simple strategies, and a bit of sense, you can virtually eliminate the negatives of sugar (inflammatory potential). Of course, this requires enough physical activity, the right nutrient timing, and like the others mentioned, really watching the fats you are eating.

How many calories are you eating? I'm losing weight on 250g+ sugar per day @ ~1800 calories.

It is only with personal experience that I have found that the stress reduction effect of sugars are real. I had been on a very low sugar diet for more than a year at one point, and overall health suffered and stress levels were hard to reduce when stress happened.

But I find that for me only a small amount of sugar is enough for this beneficial effect. A medium fruit (or two), or a small portion of a fatty sweet treat is enough to see me through 6 to 8 hours. I tend to avoid juices, and like to take only small servings of sweetened beverages, as they can easily cause excess. I think moderation and listening to one's body is key.

I'm a fan of xylitol myself.
I wrote a post at my own blog where I recommend it in the strongest terms:
http://writtens-jen.blogspot.com/2010/05/eating-cake-and-having-your-health-too.html

And some may find this info on its dental benefits quite eye-opening:
http://www.healingteethnaturally.com/rinsing-mouth-brushing-teeth-with-xylitol-sugar.html

Does xylitol have the anti-stress effect that regular sugar or HFCS has or is it like stevia where it does not raise blood sugar?

I think it's the sweetness that is soothing, especially since most of us were raised with sweet treats growing up. Comfort food. So if we can satisfy that
with healthier alternatives like xylitol or stevia, so much the better.

I've been making chocolate pudding with xylitol, nice. For me that's the ultimate comfort food. And of course, if I choose, I can top it with whipped cream using xylitol as well.

As I wrote in my post that I linked to, xylitol promotes stabilization of blood sugar and lowering of insulin levels.

rjfnyu wrote:Does xylitol have the anti-stress effect that regular sugar or HFCS has or is it like stevia where it does not raise blood sugar?

As another note to OPs original post, there are more factors involved with sugar than simply whether you are including it in the diet or not. I think some of the recommendations for total sugar per day I've seen on some other forums are way too high. I think some people are so attracted to the contrarian aspect of a pro-sugar diet they kind of go about the diet without thinking a whole lot about sugar, and I think it takes a bit more thought than that for some of us. There are other people who can get away with tons of sugar and give it relatively little thought, but we're highly varied so here are some things we can think about if we aren't members of that crowd.

Total Contribution of Sugar/Carb to Daily Calories:
Sugar should fit into an overall plan for your daily macronutrients. For example, if you want to be on a sugar focused diet you should be tracking daily macros (calories from carb as a % of daily cals, ditto for protein & fat). As a general rule, Peat also suggests a high proportion of protein in the diet. I believe he has stated that he doesn't feel right below 110 grams of protein daily. Personally I think from .7-1 gram per pound of bodyweight is a good goal. So let's say for a 160 lb person we eat 1 g/lb. At 160 grams per day, that's about 32% if we assume a 2000 calorie diet. I always feel fat should comprise between 20-30% of calories, so if we use 25% that puts us at about 56 g of fat. This would leave us at about 215 g carb (860 cals from carb.), or roughly 43%. I believe carbs should always comprise between 35%-50% of daily cals, depending on your activity level for the day. (reddit.com/r/leangains has a pretty useful macro calculator that is goal-based)

Daily Activity Level:
As mentioned, the total contribution of carbs/sugar to daily diet will depend on the type of exercise for the day. For people who like to weight train, this would mean using a split regime where you use a higher carb day on the days you resistance train (as opposed to rest days). In general, I like a diet that cycles carbs, not by extreme values, but moderately. For example, on a resistance day I will go about 45% carb. On a rest day or day where I do light cardio, I'll lower that to about 35%. Some people like a more extreme cycle where there are days of absolutely no carbs. If you can get away with it, great, there could be benefits. But I'm assuming if you are a fan of Peat, you think daily carbohydrate is pretty important. Varying it slightly from day to day, by 10% or so, I think you can still get the benefits of carb cycling. In general your total daily calories should be lowered on less active days, so this will also lower the total grammage of carbs you are getting. This leaves room for a weekly cheat day, that I would recommend for anyone.

Nutrient Timing:
I like a steady stream of protein all day. I feel the best this way. I like to get the majority of my fat during the day before workouts. The reason for this is a high fat meal tends to slow absorption of other nutrients into the bloodstream, which is not something we're shooting for after workouts. But when it comes to SUGAR, I think we should be aiming to get 70-80% of it in the hours AFTER workouts. Intermittent fasting makes this pretty simple, as around 80% of your daily cals are usually coming in this window. But even if you are feeding frequently through the day, I think its important that most of our carb consumption come post-workout. The reasoning behind this has to do with glycogen replenishment and the liver and muscle tissues' enhanced ability to utilize sugar during this time period, probably in part due to increased insulin sensitivity through GLUT receptor upregulation. The point is your body is using sugar differently during this time period, usually in a capacity thats beneficial for body comp. So let's assume the previous example, and that we're aiming for 70% of our carbs to come in the meals after workouts. This leaves around 65 g for the rest of the day. That's around 5 oranges, 4 glasses of milk, or 2-3 glasses of orange juice for reference (probably not exactly what we'll eat, but just for examples' sake).

I think combining some of the knowledge coming from the fitness industry with Peat's principles is a good way to go when it comes to sugar.

So I tried going off of sugar for a few days. It was agony. I would actually like to try stopping sugar for a month or so, but it would be next to impossible for me because of the hypoglycemia. The hypoglycemia is definitely not the result of the year and a half of sugar consumption as I was dealing with it and everything that resulted from it for several years. It was a complete flashback to what it was like pre-sugar. Right now I have an enlarged liver verified by ultrasound, something that never existed before sugar, and hypoglycemia if I stop the steady dosages of juice and honey. The only approach that seems to make sense when it comes to hypoglycemia that I have read about is in Broda Barnes' book Hope for Hypoglycemia. He says that it is an issue with the liver's ability to store glycogen and that the treatment should be desiccated thyroid. Does anyone else have an opinion on what do with hypoglycemia or with this situation?

Thanks,

Rob

Anthony Spencer is 100% right. This is about nutrient timing. I really suggest you look into the Lean Gains website and do some research about when to time your carbs/sugar intake and what days (activity wise) it's better to take in your carbs vs. rest/cardio days.

I'm seeing amazing results doing Lean Gains 16 hours intermittent fasting 8 hour eating window. In the morning I drink Bulletproof Coffee with MCT Oil (I buy Asprey's brand of both) & unsalted Kerrygold and I'm timing my carb intake/consumption to post heavy workout days. I lift 4 days a week, so on those 4 days I eat carbs and sugar post lifting workout and I'm dropping fat and changing my entire shape. This is the easiest my diet has been following the Lean Gains protocol with Bulletproof Coffee mixed in the morning. On my rest days or days I just do cardio, I keep the carbs/sugar to a minimum but if I start to get a little brain fog I'll make sure I up my carbs enough to deal with that.

You can keep eating sugar, you just need to time it correctly in my opinion and you need to try to pick whole foods as much as possible.

I was actually going to do a post about what I'm doing because I think I've finally cracked my diet. It's equally working for my wife and a friend of mine who is diagnosed type II diabetes trying to get off the drugs.

Sugar and carbs are not the problem - It has a lot to do with the window you eat them in and your activity levels.

Hey Hadrion,

As a side note, not to hijack the thread, I took your recommendations on rep ranges from our chat a few months back. I started doing a 5x5 program, kind of like a Reg Park but less volume, so more in the line of Wendler. My strength gains have been just stupid following this program. I have kind of had a paradigm shift when it comes to lifting. Before, I was obsessed with high volume, low rest periods. I was trying to use the workout itself to burn fat. But what I've realized through focusing on more of a strength program is that I shouldn't be using the workout for fat loss. I should be using the workout for muscle gain. Over time the increased lean mass increases basal metabolism and fat comes off that way. So I've been going really heavy and increasing the rest period to about 3 minutes between work sets. Its been phenomenal. The body fat is starting to come off, just starting. This is odd to me, because before my workouts were very strenuous, lots of oxygen debt and yet still very little fat loss. Now that the workouts are less aerobic but more intense as far as load goes, my body fat is coming off. Are you still doing a 4-6 rep range style?

I know this is off-topic from the post, but as activity plays a huge role in sugar metabolism, it isn't totally off. My ability to tolerate carbs has gone up tremendously from this style of lifting too. Before going at this intensity, I'd get really fatigued from a carb meal. Now its just pure energy. Its amazing how the body responds when you put it under a huge load.

Anthony - I'm so happy to hear what's working for me is working for you. I really think I've cracked it diet/workout wise. I'm sticking with Wendler 5-3-1 only because it's easy and I found a website that calculates the lifts for me called blackironbeast that I can print out my whole month's lifts on. I was going to switch to a program called The Cube, but it was too complicated. I've experienced the same exact things from following a low rep strength program and I encourage guys who are feeling run down and having issues with carbs to do the same. My strength numbers are ridiculous. I've never lifted like this in my life and I'm getting smaller, not bigger. Good luck with it and to the OP who started this thread I can tell you if you have a strength/resistance routine like Strong Lifts 5x5 and work your way up and then time your carb/sugar meals to after your workouts, you won't have any issue with the carbs/sugar after a period of adjustment.

Maybe I have not stating this clearly, but this is more likely a pretty distinct liver issue that has more to me taking Accutane 15 years ago than it does with sugar. Maybe I should start a new topic. Basically, if I stop sugar, my liver does not keep my blood sugar up and I cannot sleep and it is very hard to function. I said before that Barnes said the standard treatment for hypoglycemia is dessicated thyroid, but at 1/2 grain per day, my average temperature is about 99.3 to 99.5. I think that in my case, hypothyroidism is not the issue. With the sugar, my stress and sleep are significantly improved, but my liver is enlarged and my teeth feel terrible. My saliva feels acidic and my wife complains about my breath (something she says was never a problem before).