No offense to those using lasers but I really don't think they do much

After using my helmet for a few months now, I really can't say that I have noticed much of anything. Sometimes my head itches more the same day or following day. this may be due to dirty bristles though? Anyone clean their bristles? Any input on this one?

Hey JHarsh80,

I remember one of your threads from regrowth in December where you weren't noticing much in results.

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=22560

Are your treatment times 20 minutes, 2 - 3 times a week? The reason why I ask is because there really is a very narrow window of opportunity to get results. You see, if you use it for only 10 - 15 minutes you won't notice much in results. Same with if you use it too often say 25 - 30 minutes + you won't notice much in results. I know nidhogge said on that thread he's using his helmet for 30 - 35 minutes but you'd actually be receiving too many joules if the lasers are shinning down on that exact spot on your scalp the whole time. You'll probably get right around the 8 joules which is actually in the bioinhibition range (bad for hair). Were shooting for the biostimulation range of 5 joules which = 20 minutes where the lasers are 1.5 - 2 cm from your scalp. I believe it was hapyman that mentioned he uses his helmet for 18 minutes.

So again, right around 20 minutes is definitely the time you want to shoot for. Be extremely careful about going over that range. Back around 07/08 a bunch of people were using their helmets for 30 - 40 minutes as they felt they'd get better results because they were using it longer than recommended. It was actually the opposite. Most of them reported "very" little in results.

Also, I've made a whole bunch of posts on washing your hair before treatment and magnesium complimenting LLLT. I won't post too much on those topics as I'm sure you've read them at that other site.

There have been quite a few people that didn't notice much in results until they realized that they weren't washing their hair immediately before treatment. This really is absolutely essential!!! I can't stress this enough. Last year, for several months, I also started to slack off and didn't notice the greatest in results and skipped washing my hair. Once I went back to washing my hair everything just fell into place again and my results and the scalp sensations started to come back.

The bottom line is that I believe you'll get more results using your laser helmet once every 2 weeks with clean hair/"slightly" damp hair than if you didn't wash and used your laser helmet 3 times a week.

As for magnesium, I won't go into that too much as I'm exhausted talking about that and I'm sure you've read my posts on the other site. If you haven't read the posts where I've talked about the possible synergy between magnesium and LLLT let me know and I'll be sure to post some info here. In short, in many people's opinion, including my own, LLLT works mainly because it increases ATP levels. Without adequate levels of magnesium that ATP won't be used for wound healing, reduced inflammation, increased lymphatic drainage, etc. Most western diets are deficient in magnesium.

But again, I highly recommend to look into magnesium since you mentioned you aren't getting much in results. Several people have already commented that they notice better scalp sensations and increased soreness when using magnesium chloride as a topical before their laser treatment and washed out before using their laser helmet. I don't believe this is a coincidence. I don't necessarily believe you need to put it directly on your scalp at all just so long as you make sure your magnesium levels are high. If you take a magnesium supplement keep in mind that many people state that it can take a year or so to get your magnesium levels up. Transdermal/magnesium chloride will be a fraction of that time and is what I'd recommend.

So just to recap, make sure you wash your hair before treatment where your scalp is just "very slightly" wet with clean flyaway hair. I highly recommend for you to look into magnesium as I believe people that are magnesium deficient won't receive much in results from LLLT and also make sure you don't use your helmet too long.

hope this helps & good luck

Thanks for the insight and instruction.

Admittedly, I have approached the laser with little regard for protocol: sometimes four days in a row at 45 minutes per session, skipping weeks, etc.

I'm actually pretty keen on ridding myself of the eyesore these days.

I think I would prefer to have a hair steamer for a finacea, lavender extract, walnut oil blend.

That said, I will reference your post should I decide to move forward with the laser.

JDP, I really appreciate your in depth response. I have not read your threads on magnesium but I take mag citrate orally everyday. Once i read nid's thread that said 30 min and OMG's that said 20 I compromised at 25 .....so that's what I've been doing. If you wouldn't mind reiterating then I would like to know if there's a benefit to using topical mag. Thanks bud

JDP--

Glad to see you on IH's forum! Great fit here.

Gibson--

Try to stick with 20 minutes, at 3x a week, with at least one day in-between. Overexposure will be counterproductive.

JH--

I agree 100% with JDP on using it with a clean scalp. It makes a world of a difference. Using topical MMS right after a shower prior to treatment may be fantastic as well with LLLT. After I tinker around with topical MMS, I'll share how to do this with people on the forum if I'm impressed with the results.

Thanks for the warm welcome nidhogge.

Sorry it took so long to reply back JHarsh80. I've been real busy.

One on of my old laser helmet designs I experimented with different treatment times. I used my moveable cluster where I treated one side of my head for 20 minutes and got great results. 25 minutes was too long to get great results but still got something in results. 30 minutes, my results pretty much stopped. I take pictures of my hair every month as there is no way to know just how your hair progresses otherwise.

On another helmet design I actually had to bump up the treatment time several minutes to get the same scalp sensations. The reason was because the diodes were a little further than 1.5 - 2 cm away from my scalp.

Also, if you have dark skin you "may" need to bump up treatment times a bit to see how that works out for you. Same with hair color. If you have blonde hair you may also need to bump up treatment times. Thicker skin "supposedly" needs longer treatment time too. Bottom line, is if you aren't receiving results after many months you can start to experiment with different treatment times and see how it works for you. I do believe 20 minutes with the diodes 1.5 - 2 cm away from scalp should work for "most" people though.

And again, it is absolutely essential that you wash your hair before laser treatment with nothing weighing your hair down. And be careful with some shampoo as they can weigh your hair down. I know some of the shampoo that I've tried did not give me the same scalp sensations when using my laser helmet. Just the "slightest" dampness to your scalp also helps.

As for magnesium oil, yes, I do feel that there it would benefit. If you buy a small bottle of Ancient Minerals or the small bottle of puremagoil.com you should know pretty quick based on scalp sensations and better hair days if it helps. Better hair days I believe precedes thicker hair. So again, I know transdermal magnesium is much much better for me than taking magnesium citrate or magensium glycinate. I believe it was hapyman that mentioned that he had better scalp sensations or greater soreness when he applied the magnesium oil to his scalp and then washed out before his laser treatment.

And the last thing I'd recommend is to take pictures of your hair so you can gauge what is working for you best.

hope this helps

jdp - you wrote : another helmet design I actually had to bump up the treatment time several minutes to get the same scalp sensations.

What are those scalp sensations that make you know that something is working good, (or bad..) ?

Hi europe,

The scalp sensations is actually a good thing IMO but of course you can overdo it. With our laser helmets we are shooting for around 5 joules which is the upper end of the biostimulation which causes a whole sort of beneficial changes to take place. However, if you go much past this 5 joule area and get around the 8+ joule area you'll get into the bioinhibition range which is not a good idea when treating for hair loss but is useful when treating for scars or pain reduction, etc..

Anyway, back on topic about the scalp sensations. It's a bit hard to describe but after about 10 - 15 minutes most people will feel a nice tingly sensation for lack of a better word. When you get things just right, someone described it as feeling like an electric current going through your scalp and that is a good description when everything is done just right. It really does feel rather exhilarating.

You know when you've had a nice deep massage and the next day your muscles still feel loosened up. Well, the next day your scalp feels somewhat like that feeling as well.

There is another scalp sensation that a small percentage of people have been able to get. This sensation is A LOT harder to get as everything needs to fall into place just right to get. What I'm talking about is a sore feeling. This sore feeling really feels just like what you'd get if you were lifting weights but the feeling is in your scalp. The closest explanation I can find how our laser helmets can do this is because LLLT (e.g. laser helmets) increase acetylcholine. Here's some quotes about acetylcholine FWIW

Acetylcholine: "stimulate muscle contractions and excites nerves. An increase in acetylcholine causes a decreased heart rate and increased production of saliva, as well as readying the muscles for work. In high doses, it can cause convulsions and tremors."

"Acetylcholine is one of a group of biochemicals known as "neurotransmitters". It carries nerve impulses across the "synapse", from one neuron to another, where it propagates nerve impulses in the receiving neuron. It also carries impulses across the "motor plate", from a neuron to a muscle cell, where it generates muscle contractions. It is important to proper nervous system and muscle functioning."

http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/acetylcholine.html

"acetylcholine , a small organic molecule liberated at nerve endings as a neurotransmitter . It is particularly important in the stimulation of muscle tissue. The transmission of an impulse to the end of the nerve causes it to release neurotransmitter molecules onto the surface of the next cell, stimulating it. After such release, the acetylcholine is quickly broken into acetate and choline, which pass back to the first cell to be recycled into acetylcholine again. The poison curare acts by blocking the transmission of acetylcholine. Some nerve gases operate by preventing the breakdown of acetylcholine causing continual stimulation of the receptor cells, which leads to intense spasms of the muscles" http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-acetylch.html

Oh, here's a good article describing how LLLT works FWIW

http://laserthera.com/how_does_lllt_work.htm

Seconding what JPD said--I use Magnesium Oil (puremagoil.com) every shower, and my scalp feels considerably better for it. Basically, here's my routine to an incredibly clean and fresh scalp:

- Aveda Exfoliating Shampoo x 2 (massage very thoroughly before washing out)

- Sea Buckthorn Soap (let sit a minute before washing out)

- Apply Magnesium Oil

- Apply IH rinse (let sit until done showering then wash out)

After the shower, activate some MMS, then apply that all over my scalp and face. Let that dry, then apply my HGF. Let that dry, then laser or if it's a non-laser day, start making another laser helmet for someone, lol.

Should the hair be wet during laser therapy? I guess short hair is better?

Would a olive oil / lemon rinse right before therapy do any good?

If applying topicals such as minoxidil, should this be done prior to or afterwards?

nidhogge wrote:Seconding what JPD said--I use Magnesium Oil (puremagoil.com) every shower, and my scalp feels considerably better for it. Basically, here's my routine to an incredibly clean and fresh scalp:

- Aveda Exfoliating Shampoo x 2 (massage very thoroughly before washing out)

- Sea Buckthorn Soap (let sit a minute before washing out)

- Apply Magnesium Oil

- Apply IH rinse (let sit until done showering then wash out)

After the shower, activate some MMS, then apply that all over my scalp and face. Let that dry, then apply my HGF. Let that dry, then laser or if it's a non-laser day, start making another laser helmet for someone, lol.

Hey nid - have you taken MMS internally?

What is MMS?

halfempty - This is MMS

http://mmsmiracle.com/mmslymecure

It's chloride Dioxide.

Well, it's Sodium Chlorite, but when activated with something acidic (such as Lime juice, Apple Cider Vinegar, Citric Acid, etc.), it become the user-friendly Chlorine Dioxide. Chlorine Dioxide is an intense anti-microbial. I've been applying it after my showers to my scalp, and it makes it feel incredibly clean.

Scotty--

Not yet, but I intend to! On day 4 topically. The guy that referred it to me bought some lasers through me, and told me about his personal experience. He said it stopped his shedding, and that he was going to stop using it for a week and a half and see how the results were. Sure enough, the shedding came back. Went back on it, and the shedding ceased again.

He used it on his cat that was having massive shedding on its side, and the shedding ceased and hair grew right back!

nidhogge wrote:Well, it's Sodium Chlorite, but when activated with something acidic (such as Lime juice, Apple Cider Vinegar, Citric Acid, etc.), it become the user-friendly Chlorine Dioxide. Chlorine Dioxide is an intense anti-microbial. I've been applying it after my showers to my scalp, and it makes it feel incredibly clean.

Scotty--

Not yet, but I intend to! On day 4 topically. The guy that referred it to me bought some lasers through me, and told me about his personal experience. He said it stopped his shedding, and that he was going to stop using it for a week and a half and see how the results were. Sure enough, the shedding came back. Went back on it, and the shedding ceased again.

He used it on his cat that was having massive shedding on its side, and the shedding ceased and hair grew right back!

I just got some a couple weeks ago. I tried it internally for a few days, 2 drops, then 4 drops, then 6 - then I got brave and tried 12 drops.

After the 12 drops, I felt like complete dogs**t for about 12 hours. Worse diarheaa I can ever remember having. It SUCKED.

Have stayed away from it since.

I think I'll give it a try topically and see what happens.

Haha, I'm guessing it was giving you Candida die-off-like symptoms, cleansing your body. I could be wrong of course and it may have just been an OD!

Topically, do 50 drops of Citric Acid in a cup, then 10 drops of the MMS. Let it activate for 3-5 minutes, then add 2-3 ounces of Distilled Water. Mix it up a little, then you're good to apply. I throw it all over my face, scalp, wherever.

Misirlou wrote:Should the hair be wet during laser therapy? I guess short hair is better?

Would a olive oil / lemon rinse right before therapy do any good?

If applying topicals such as minoxidil, should this be done prior to or afterwards?

Hey Misirlou,

Sorry it took so long to respond back as I've been real busy.

To answer your question I have no idea if olive oil/lemon rinse works well as a topical for LLLT as I haven't heard anyone comment that they've used it. I believe it's Gaunitz that uses that combo and "it appears" they have phenomenal results "in general."

As for as applying topicals before or after laser therapy, it really depends on what kind of topical. Minoxidil I have no idea if it would, but "my guess" would be to use it after. You see, a large portion of topicals would impede the absorption of the laser light getting to your scalp. So "my guess" is the minoxidil might impede the absorption of the laser light. You can always do something like what A & G recommends with their new product. They recommend to use the laser for 15 minutes, apply the product, and laser for the last 5 minutes.

Also, I know there are about 5 or 6 people that are using emu oil "before" their laser treatment and a couple of them are reporting back with better results than without it. Emu oil does sound interesting and I can see how it could increase the absorption of the laser light on your scalp in a similiar way as wet hair. If you're curious about what everyone is using for topicals and results that everyone is getting you can check out this testimonial thread I've been keeping track of.

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=23460

hope this helps