lasers on hair ?? working for anyone

Again I am investigating laser helmets
can users on this forum please share their experiences both negative and positive before I take the plunge and buy a laser helmet

as for lazer hair products which are the better ones, I am looking at a laser helmet with 100 lasers on eBay and also the hair max 60

many thanks for any comment here

There isnt that much talk about laser on this forum, but they really do work. Dont expect explosive regrowth from them but what you can expect is thicker hair and a little bit of regrowth. They are also good for stopping hair loss.

IMO the best bang for your buck would be to buy a helmet from OMG. Thats what i did. He charged me $2.50/diode plus like 120$ for the helmet itself.

http://www.overmachogrande.com/

Lasers definitely work, and work well at that. IF you use the proper device...we generally recommend around 300 lasers at least to get full coverage on the major problem areas (vertex, crown, temples, hairline). Those shoddy devices floating around the net such as hand-helds, portable hoods, are rip-offs. Less value for your money, and significantly less results.

Below are some e-mail excerpts from jambap, a member of Regrowth.com back when we were all on that site. While I do build them for folks, I also sometimes sell lasers so folks can build their own for a cheaper price. In this case, I was managing a big laser group buy for folks on Regrowth. Jambap sent these e-mails to me last June 2010 (14 months into LLLT treatment):

Hey Dan,

It's "jambap" here from the good old days of hairloss forums. Do you still remember those? Heh, well I just wanted to see where you are and how your laser-helmet life is going... After a year and a half since starting on the laser helmet my original hairline is almost entirely visible and the all previously thinned hair of the hairline is just getting thicker and thicker. So for me, the fight is over, and I won. It's just a case of maintaining my laser regimen and it's a done deal, no more waiting to see how long it takes to work, or wondering if it will stop working. Maybe like Minoxidil, lasers will somehow eventually lose their efficacy, but I seem to think the science is on our side on this one.

So how's things for you? Where you at now? I'd love to hear something from one of the original laserblazers.

And let me just take this opportunity to once again thank you for taking care of the laser orders for us from Aizix. You got a lot of money put into your account, the kind that could have been more than some would have resisited, but you delivered the goods without seeking a penny in profit. Thanks to your help and honesty, there's a group of guys out there now who's lives have changed and hairloss is simply no longer on our list of worries. Now that's historic!!

Cheers mate,

Jambap

And an excerpt from the next e-mail in reply to my reply to jambap:

Hey Dan,

Thanks for the reply, I'm so glad to hear from you. And that website!! Wow, I can see now where all your energies have been! Sounds like an awesome project you guys are on, I knew you guys were too dynamic to let something so exciting die down...

And yeah, my hairline is defintely being restored. I mean, it starts with fine vellous hairs appearing as they have done numerous times before on other treatments, only to disappear again after some months, but the differences this time is that they keep getting thicker and then new vellous hairs then appear in front of them. So it literally is like hairloss in reverse. The beauty of course is that all my friends are oblivious to the fact that my hair is coming back, they just keep telling me how well I'm looking, and can't put their finger on why. I think after about 10 months I hit a bit of a plateau that lasted for about 4 months, but now things are moving again in earnest and I think I'm set for a new round of bald-vellous, vellous-terminal and terminal-thick hair growth.

I'll definitely keep an eye on your website, but to be honest, hairloss just doesn't occupy too much of my waking thoughts now, so I don't know how regular a member I'll be. But I'll most likely drop by to see what's new.

All the best with your hardwork and exciting hairloss projects!!

jambap

Nidhogge,
Thanks for the optimistic post. These success stories make rededicating oneself to a healthier and hairier lifestyle easier when things look grim. Hope to hear more laser success stories on this thread as I'm just starting out after much chaos and procrastination. Thanks again.

Laser successes, failures, and anything in between, I should say.

I did it for about 6 months and it seemed to be thickening. Went to vegas for 2 weeks and got a shed, not sure if it was sunlight exposure or jetlag and then I stopped. Wish i would of kept up with it to see where i would be at now. have 250 laser helmet i built with OMG's specs. My hair has thinned considerably now and am considering giving it another shot or going back on rogaine with dermarolling and seeing where that takes me.

RPM and others - I dont think you should worry about success stories for two reasons.

1. It does work and its almost certainly going to work for you. I say this because it makes everyones scalp far more healthy. Its not a hit or miss type of treatment.

2. You need to be on LLLT. Every balding person needs to be on LLLT.

Dont worry about before/after pics, success stories, or clinical studies. Hundreds of people have already done all that for you. LLLT is well past that phase.

Really the next step for you guys is to just start using a laser device. Like nidhogge said if you buy one off the internet youre really not getting a good value.

Coverage is the top priority for a laser device. Coverage means more diodes. I use a 250 and that covers the front, middle and the vertex. It does not cover the back sides on the top of my head.

Also i should say that 250 diodes is really the lowest amount you want. I have heard that nidhogge builds them as well but you'd have to talk to him. A 250 diode will cost about$800 bucks if you buy from OMG.

2.50 a diode. 250 x 2.5 = $625 (OMG sells them for 2.50ea but they are $4ea unless you buy in bulk.)

Helmet = $120

Power supply = $40

Shipping costs (for power supply and helmet) = about 20 bucks.

Total = 805

Remember that that is a one time cost. Making LLLT probably the cheapest treatment in the long run.

Also for that $120 OMG will build you a very nice helmet. Install bristles, diodes, and wire it all up for you using his supplies.


Im not a shill for OMG, but IMO he has the best deal around.

Just wanted to second NDW's post with regards to OMG's helmets. I bought a 400 diode full deal helmet for a great price and am very happy with the quality, I just have to get consistent with it's use. Has anyone heard from OMG lately? It seems like he hasn't posted in a couple of months on WHL.

460 diode helmet. Amazing for healing, thickening and darkening. Deals a good blow to inflammation, increases micronutrient circulation, superoxide dismutase and vasodilation. Definitely adds something striking to facial complexion and overall health as well. I think anyone who is serious about hairloss should own one. Used it this morning after a 3 week hiatus and poof --------thin to thick.

how come there's never any before and afters for lasers

I'd put my regimen (at less than $35 a month) up against, or rather, head to head (pun intended) with any laser, brush or helmet, any day.

LOL@DM5

The Natural wrote:I'd put my regimen (at less than $35 a month) up against, or rather, head to head (pun intended) with any laser, brush or helmet, any day.

LOL@DM5

Natural- I use Curcumin and Resveratrol, Vitamin C, Magnesium etc along WiTH lasers. So no need to compare regimens. But, here's the story. I decided almost a month ago to drop lasers and see if it had any effect on my hair. All the while continuing the IH regimen. The first thing I noticed after about 2 weeks was that the thinning line(yes its a line that goes down the back right side of my head) started to show. As well as the crown(dime spot)began to suddenly have less coverage and poke thru. After seeing this thread and being reminded, I thought I'd conclude my little test this morning and I can without a doubt say yes lasers do "noticeably" thicken your hair. And yes it was before thin areas thinner after 2 weeks--- used helmet today---after-thin areas noticeably thicker even after a shampoo!

abc123 - Before and afters http://www.llltsolutions.com/pages/before_and_after/index.html

If anyone wants to dispute the legitimacy of the photos, go ahead. Its your hair and your loss. You can always go bald instead!

The Natural - This thread is for noobs questioning if lasers are a scam or not. All you're doing is causing confusion.

Abstract
Background and Objectives

Low level laser irradiation (LLLI) has been shown to reduce inflammation in a variety of clinical situations. We have shown that LLLI (780 nm) increases aortic smooth muscle cell proliferation and matrix protein secretion and modulates activity and expression of matrix metalloproteinases. Inflammation is a major component of arteriosclerotic diseases including aneurysm. Macrophage recruitment and secretion of pro-inflammatory cytokines and the vasodilator, nitric oxide (NO), are central to most immune responses in the arterial wall. The present study was designed to determine the effect of LLLI on cytokine gene expression and secretion as well as gene expression of inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) and NO production in lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-stimulated macrophages.

Study Design/Materials and Methods
Murine monocyte/macrophages (RAW 264.7) were irradiated with a 780 nm diode laser (2 mW/cm2, 2.2 J/cm2) during stimulation with LPS (0, 0.1, and 1 µg/ml). Gene expression of chemokines, cytokines, and iNOS were assessed by RT-PCR. Secretion of interleukin (IL)-1β and monocyte chemotactic protein (MCP)-1 and NO were assessed by ELISA and the Griess reaction, respectively.

Results

LLLI reduced gene expression of MCP-1, IL-1α, IL-10 (P<0.01), IL-1β, and IL-6 (P<0.05) when cells were stimulated by 1 µg/ml LPS. LLLI reduced LPS-induced secretion of MCP-1 over non-irradiated cells by 17±5% and 13±5% at 12 hours (0.1 and 1 µg/ml LPS; P<0.01 and P = 0.05, respectively), and reduced IL-1β by 22±5% and 25±9% at 24 hours (0.1 and 1 µg/ml LPS, P = 0.01 and P  = 0.06, respectively). However, LLLI increased NO secretion after 12 hours (LLLI vs. Control: without LPS, 1.72±0.37 vs. 0.95±0.4 µM, P<0.05; 0.1 µg/ml LPS, 7.46±1.62 vs. 4.44±1.73 µM, P = 0.06; 1 µg/ml LPS, 10.91±3.53 vs. 6.88±1.52 µM, P<0.05).

Conclusions
These properties of LLLI, with its effects on smooth muscle cells reported previously, may be of profound therapeutic relevance for arterial diseases such as aneurysm where inflammatory processes and weakening of the matrix structure of the arterial wall are major pathologic components. Lesers Surg. Med. 40:371–378, 2008. © 2008 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

Some researchers believe that the inflammatory infiltrate often found in MPB hair follicles might be the cause of premature entry into telogen phase and eventual miniaturization. So anything that attenuates chronic inflammation should have a positive effect on hair loss.

DM5, your hair went from thin to thick after one morning session? I can't tell if you are being facetious or not. But surely, you don't expect any (correction, most) of us to believe this miraculous claim. I was born at night, not last night.

NDW, aren't you a newbie, yourself? Your number of posts are indicative of such. Unless, that is, you are someone that I already know...

Let's be honest, shall we. Lasers are damn expensive, ok, and in many of our forum circles, they are considered too expensive, especially, for the kind of results that I've seen and read. For that kind of money, a newbie would do well to invest in a good internal regimen w/a topical of some sort.

Yes i am a total noob. Considering my number of posts my IQ is certainly around 30 or 40.

#1 This thread was intended for people who were questioning if it was a scam or not.
If i wasnt trying to help someone down the right path i wouldnt have written a thing on this thread.

#2 The cost of a laser device isnt the point of the thread. Many people will gladly pay 800-$1000 bucks for a LLLT device. If it can give you more hair and make you feel good then what better way can you spend a G.

#3 Considering its a one time cost. It really isnt that outrageous.

Being a noob once i really wished there was a thread that just said YES LLLT WORKS
without all the controversy like this one.

"Works" is a relative term, as a lot of users have found out. What every newbie wants is objectivity, ok. Not a sales pitch.

Natural--

I've followed laser helmets since the beginning, and with the exception of Raxe (who I believe suffers from a more atypical form of MPB, such as adrenal or thyroid-related where lasers aren't of much benefit), I haven't found one negative testimonial that was the result of lasering and not user error. By user error, I mean people giving up after a few months, wearing the helmet for 45 minutes instead of 15-20, using the helmet every day, and simply just not giving it enough time to work.

You haven't used one yourself for a year, or any amount of time for that matter. If you're going to put your regimen against a helmet, then put your money where your mouth is--build yourself a helmet with 300 diodes, and use it for a year along with your regimen and see where you're at. I'd put $100 that the results would be SIGNIFICANTLY more positive.

Everyone else--

Why are there no before-and-afters? Because the only place where you really see before-and-afters are organized clinics, such as a laser clinic that you would actually pay to drive to, that's managed by someone that can take good-quality pictures. Folks here, we just care about solving our loss, as opposed to proving to others that we are solving our loss. Couple this with the fact that far fewer people out there know about laser helmets than Rogaine and Propecia, so the sample size that would take before-and-afters is far smaller.

@Natural-

My hair looks visibly thicker. My thinning areas which I describe if you really read my second post is the barometer I was using. But my hair overall even after a shampoo looks "thicker". Did I regrow all my hair in the morning???? NO, and I didn't say that. But COSMETICALLY my hair is thicker, I have more coverage. I stand by that 100%. Nobody is paying me.

And you always seem to want to compare regimens or have the best. Its not about who has the best but what works. These things (lasers, IH, whatever you take) are all complementary. People fighting hairloss should hit it from all angles. From past posts I think this is really about your feelings for OMG rather than lasers and such. Maybe you should just say I hate OMG rather than mislead people about lasers.

I find that hair looks much better on the days after lasering. I haven't lasered consistently enough to comment on regrowth or shaft diameter increases, but there is a noticeable cosmetic coverage effect right away. This may be a drying/volumizing effect like blow drying (which I haven't done in years). Maybe this is what DM5 is referring to.

NDW wrote:abc123 - Before and afters http://www.llltsolutions.com/pages/before_and_after/index.html

If anyone wants to dispute the legitimacy of the photos, go ahead. Its your hair and your loss. You can always go bald instead!

The Natural - This thread is for noobs questioning if lasers are a scam or not. All you're doing is causing confusion.

photo 1: woman, camera too close in before, and too much lighting
photo 2: his hair is combed over
photo 3: woman and hes messing with the hair
photo 4: camera too close in before, and too much light makes him look bald
photo 5: he's pulling his hair back in the before, pushing it forward in the after.

I could go on.

Not to mention they only have thumbnails for pictures, which is pretty suspect.

I would try lasers if they weren't $800, just seems like a scam. Can I make one for $100 and just shine it on a tiny area to see if it actually does anything?

abc123, if they were a scam, there wouldn't have been clinics popping up all over the country since the mid-80s offering LLLT. When things are scams, it usually takes a couple of years for it to surface as a scam and then it's onto the next scam. LLLT, on the other hand, is the complete opposite--it's only grown since the 80s, and astronomically at that.

How is paying 800ish for a device a scam? The bulk of the cost is the lasers themselves! 300 lasers x 2.50 = $700 right there.

Scam would be buying a clinical laser hood...clinics purchase those for $25,000, and they have less than half of the efficacy of a laser helmet. Even then, hoods still work...that's how I was introduced to LLLT...paid $800 for the first month and $375 each consecutive month for 5 months before giving up because it cost too much money (despite getting significant results that family and friends noticed, along with myself), then I purchased the X5 laser (which is complete crap), came across Regrowth.com and OverMachoGrande on building your own helmet, got a refund for the X5 and applied it toward buying my own lasers at $4/apiece back then, and everything else is history.

The question isn't if lasers work or not--they do. If folks want to take the time to research and educate themselves, they'll find that truth for themselves. I've found that people that continue to ask for pictures whether it's for lasering or anything else, are typically those who never resolve their own issues and instead let the stress of hair loss consume them. We've showed some damn good pictures in the past that have been wiped out by the owner of Regrowth.com, Dr. Maricle himself provided us with before-and-afters from his one-year study on a few hundred people that used a clinical device that he developed for Sunetics and we shared those I believe on HairLossFight.com, and the list goes on.

The research and anecdotal evidence is out there for those that want to find it. Seek an ye shall find!