Re: The Fallacy Of Blood Flow As A Non Factor In Balding.... And What To Do About it...

Hoppipolla Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:03 pm

Crusher wrote:ferox,

Minox is like heroin (ok,for sure not the best comparison but I don't know how to do better), if you drop it your 'cultivated' hairs fall out. Not to mention the possible sides.

Yeah I really wish I could like minox. It's amazing stuff in it's way I reckon, but it was giving me wrinkles on my forehead and I just couldn't stand to see that happening >.<

Shame that so many of the mainstream, chemical treatments have such unpleasant side effects Sad

Delphine wrote:
Advice from Oleda Baker, who is 75. Check out her pic!

http://www.bocaratontribune.com/oleda-talks-2/

... REALLY LONG POST! ...

These new hairs are the beginning of new, stronger growth AND at the same time your “old” roots will have become more nourished, stronger and healthier too.

Y'know... I'm warming to you Delphine ^^

Sorry if we got off on the wrong foot.. I think it's best if we put our differences aside as I think you say a lot of cool stuff and you're on the ball IMO with a significant amount of it (bloodflow, gelatine, etc!).

So um.. yeah, just wanted to make up I guess!

And wow that story is impressive! It's actually very similar to the kind of massaging that I do naturally. I have started hair pulling, so maybe I'll try this as well as I do massage a bit too Smile

EDIT -- Whoa jeez my head is STILL buzzing after that lol

That did much more in the way of tingling and stuff for me than the hair pulling, although I may continue to do both. I'm getting a little desperate now to just see some quick results as it's been so long (I do have faith in my internal approaches, but I've made a lot of mistakes and I've begun to realize that's a very slow road that you can't rush, unless you're very clever or very lucky) - this seems to be the best way to get results. I'm also using ketoconazole 1% every day in the shower again, just because I figure it can't hurt (apparently it's anti-androgenic, anti-fungal AND anti-inflammatory... no wonder people report such good results!). Fingers crossed the two together (as well as still ofc not giving up on internal approaches) should start to push things in the right direction!!

DOUBLE EDIT -- Oh, I also sent an email to Papilla Power apologizing for being so cold to him before Smile

He seems alright really, and I'm sure he really is onto something here. So.. I apologized, hopefully he'll be cool with that! I guess we're all struggling a bit (particularly those in early stages or without a solid treatment yet) so it's easy to be a bit dismissive (plus there are so many con artists out there!!). So... yeah Smile

Columbo Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:25 pm

Could someone please explain the benefits of yoga headstands please? (vs. massage alone)

gbp2000 Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:36 am

Headstand = pressure = temporary hypoxia.

I have no personal experience - I'm simply sticking with what I've spent years tracking down, as there is a lot of evidence that it can work.

Could it help? I think so, but again, if you aren't doing the main exercise there is probably little point.

Balthier Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:38 am

in the pdf posted here of margos book it specifically says that doing headstands doesn't increase blood flow to where needed pg 24

Columbo Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:54 am

gbp2000 wrote:Headstand = pressure = temporary hypoxia.

I have no personal experience - I'm simply sticking with what I've spent years tracking down, as there is a lot of evidence that it can work.

Could it help? I think so, but again, if you aren't doing the main exercise there is probably little point.

cheers mate

SlowMoe Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:09 am

Balthier wrote:in the pdf posted here of margos book it specifically says that doing headstands doesn't increase blood flow to where needed pg 24

Right, when you stand on your head the pressure of your head pressing on the floor doesn't allow blood into the top of the head where it's needed.

Seems like an inversion table is the way to go.

So looking at increased bloodflow from a multi-faceted standpoint, I have found a few options that I plan on implementing. I am trying to develop the best order of execution to make the process more efficient. Here is what I have got so far (only my theories, I could be wrong about some of this stuff)

1. Inversion table while doing scalp exercises to force blood into the scalp.
2. Towel rub to direct the blood to the right places.
3. Circulation boosting topical ( for me its onions and cayenne liquefied) to keep the blood in the scalp.

Thoughts?

Paradox Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:25 am

SlowMoe wrote:
Balthier wrote:in the pdf posted here of margos book it specifically says that doing headstands doesn't increase blood flow to where needed pg 24
Right, when you stand on your head the pressure of your head pressing on the floor doesn't allow blood into the top of the head where it's needed.

Seems like an inversion table is the way to go.

So looking at increased bloodflow from a multi-faceted standpoint, I have found a few options that I plan on implementing. I am trying to develop the best order of execution to make the process more efficient. Here is what I have got so far (only my theories, I could be wrong about some of this stuff)

1. Inversion table while doing scalp exercises to force blood into the scalp.
2. Towel rub to direct the blood to the right places.
3. Circulation boosting topical ( for me its onions and cayenne liquefied) to keep the blood in the scalp.

Thoughts?

I thought an inversion table was needed as well, until I simply realized that leaning over with your head between your legs (standing or sitting) inverts your head and does the same thing. FWIW, I use either a boar bristle brush while doing this or some kind or rubbing/massage, and it feels even better.

gbp2000 Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:00 am

Balthier wrote:in the pdf posted here of margos book it specifically says that doing headstands doesn't increase blood flow to where needed pg 24

Read what I wrote. I don't consider them needed, but if they do work, I just explained why.

gbp2000 Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:03 am

SlowMoe wrote:
Balthier wrote:in the pdf posted here of margos book it specifically says that doing headstands doesn't increase blood flow to where needed pg 24
Right, when you stand on your head the pressure of your head pressing on the floor doesn't allow blood into the top of the head where it's needed.

Seems like an inversion table is the way to go.

So looking at increased bloodflow from a multi-faceted standpoint, I have found a few options that I plan on implementing. I am trying to develop the best order of execution to make the process more efficient. Here is what I have got so far (only my theories, I could be wrong about some of this stuff)

1. Inversion table while doing scalp exercises to force blood into the scalp.
2. Towel rub to direct the blood to the right places.
3. Circulation boosting topical ( for me its onions and cayenne liquefied) to keep the blood in the scalp.

Thoughts?

This is kinda why I'm talking about following some sort of scientific process - we have proof temporary hypoxia causes hairgrowth. So - you read that and thought - an inversion table is better choice. I'm curious? why?

hellwig Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:13 am

I've been lying on my back with my head hanging down over the edge of the bed and I've noticed I'm able to think more logically whilst doing it, coming up with solutions for various day to day problems that I might not otherwise have thought of. Even if it's doing nothing for my hair it's a great discovery.

gbp2000 Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:15 am

hellwig wrote:I've been lying on my back with my head hanging down over the edge and I've noticed I'm able to think more logically whilst doing it, coming up with solutions for various day to day problems that I might not otherwise have thought of. Even if it's doing nothing for my hair it's a great discovery.

I'm thinking that a combination of the two might be useful - head and hand stands. One for aniogenesis - the other for force creating capillary loops.

Paradox Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:53 am

gbp2000 wrote:
SlowMoe wrote:
Balthier wrote:in the pdf posted here of margos book it specifically says that doing headstands doesn't increase blood flow to where needed pg 24
Right, when you stand on your head the pressure of your head pressing on the floor doesn't allow blood into the top of the head where it's needed.

Seems like an inversion table is the way to go.

So looking at increased bloodflow from a multi-faceted standpoint, I have found a few options that I plan on implementing. I am trying to develop the best order of execution to make the process more efficient. Here is what I have got so far (only my theories, I could be wrong about some of this stuff)

1. Inversion table while doing scalp exercises to force blood into the scalp.
2. Towel rub to direct the blood to the right places.
3. Circulation boosting topical ( for me its onions and cayenne liquefied) to keep the blood in the scalp.

Thoughts?

This is kinda why I'm talking about following some sort of scientific process - we have proof temporary hypoxia causes hairgrowth. So - you read that and thought - an inversion table is better choice. I'm curious? why?

I believe the answer is in bathier's post

Balthier wrote:in the pdf posted here of margos book it specifically says that doing headstands doesn't increase blood flow to where needed pg 24

I read it as well in the PP link someone posted in "the original PP thread".

SlowMoe Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:05 am

gbp2000 wrote:
SlowMoe wrote:
Balthier wrote:in the pdf posted here of margos book it specifically says that doing headstands doesn't increase blood flow to where needed pg 24
Right, when you stand on your head the pressure of your head pressing on the floor doesn't allow blood into the top of the head where it's needed.

Seems like an inversion table is the way to go.

So looking at increased bloodflow from a multi-faceted standpoint, I have found a few options that I plan on implementing. I am trying to develop the best order of execution to make the process more efficient. Here is what I have got so far (only my theories, I could be wrong about some of this stuff)

1. Inversion table while doing scalp exercises to force blood into the scalp.
2. Towel rub to direct the blood to the right places.
3. Circulation boosting topical ( for me its onions and cayenne liquefied) to keep the blood in the scalp.

Thoughts?

This is kinda why I'm talking about following some sort of scientific process - we have proof temporary hypoxia causes hairgrowth. So - you read that and thought - an inversion table is better choice. I'm curious? why?

You obviously have a better understanding of all this than I do. My idea is invert to flood scalp with blood, Margo method and topical to keep it there longer. Seems logical to me, but I may be way off.
I'm not familiar with temporary hypoxia, or how to induce it, so I'm really not sure how to answer your question. Ive spent a lot of times doing searches, but I really dont have the time it takes to read through all your posts..Could you please try to simplify what you are saying.

Thanks

gbp2000 Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:40 am

Cs posted a study that showed temporary hypoxia grows hair. We also have a study showing massage creates temporary hypoxia. There are numerous studies showing temporary hypoxia creates blood vessels (aniogenesis).

Whilst I think both Margo and PP have working systems - I believe all of these methods work due to temporary hypoxia:

PP Method
Margo Method
Skull Expansion
and many others..

I think we need temporary hypoxia - I'm not sure we need extra blood flow. We might need both.

I don't know if we need both or just hypoxia.

Headstands = temporary hypoxia
Handstands = increased blood flow

SlowMoe Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:53 am

Thank you for clarifying that.

What I dint understand is how Margo states blood creates hair and massage creates blood....but then you say that hypoxia, which I assume to be a stare of depleted oxygen(blood) grows hair...?

Balthier Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:42 pm

I will quote the book pg 24 it seems like headstands should be avoided handstands if you want to

Should you stand on your head? No, because that posture does not increase blood flow to the top of
your skull where you need it most; on the contrary, it constricts the capillaries and decreases the
blood flow there.

gbp2000 Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:10 pm

Balthier wrote:I will quote the book pg 24 it seems like headstands should be avoided handstands if you want to

Should you stand on your head? No, because that posture does not increase blood flow to the top of
your skull where you need it most; on the contrary, it constricts the capillaries and decreases the
blood flow there.

Assuming you want to go with the Margo method - yes, by all means avoid them. However, as I'm sure you read - temporary hypoxia is caused by massage - the same as a headstand. I'm not advocating people differ from the method - I believe it works - but I think its quite possible Margo didn't understand the underlying method of why this works.

9rugrats5 Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:37 pm

gbp2000 wrote:We also have a study showing massage creates temporary hypoxia.

Gbp, can you please link to the said study?
thanks.

CausticSymmetry Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:27 am

https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t6991-revisiting-important-findings-implications-for-de-novo-hair-growth

9rugrats5 Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:03 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t6991-revisiting-important-findings-implications-for-de-novo-hair-growth

And a very important thread, CS. But your threads seem to scare off some posters, though, for some reason. We'd rather ask you than read!

I have read that thread, even posted on it. Though it correlates hypoxia and hair growth, how that hypoxia could be mechanically induced is not discussed in the paper. A search for word 'massage' in the thread draws a blank. In fact, that's why I ask gbp, if he could cite the paper linking massage induced hypoxia.

(gbp2000 wrote:
We also have a study showing massage creates temporary hypoxia.)

CausticSymmetry Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:07 am

Here's a posting by Columbo, that probably answers this question

Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:56 am

"Massage Induces VEGF via Hypoxia (and Possibly NO via Shear Stress), Which in Turn Trigger Angiogenesis (and lymphangiogenesis):

There are several technologic advances which allow detection of vascular markers of angiogenesis and lymphangiogenesis. These include vascular endothelial growth factors (VEGF), hypoxia inducible factor 1 (HIF-1) and nitric oxide (NO) and its metabolites.

Taking a step upstream in the physiologic chain of events, it is noted that VEGF has an important cellular signal; hypoxia inducible factor 1 (HIF-1) (for review see Hirota & Semenzab, 2006). It is well established that the hypoxic environment of a tumor induces HIF-1 and plays a role in lymphangiogenesis, angiogenesis and tumor cell metastasis (Currie et al., 2004; Maxwell, 2005; Okada et al., 2005; Schoppmann et al., 2006). Therefore, a second important question evolves; does massage create hypoxia? This question at face appears counter-intuitive. If massage increases circulation does it not increase blood oxygenation or is the reverse true?

Studies performed by Boone, Tanner and Radosevich (2001) demonstrated that a 10 minute back-rub caused a significant decrease in venous oxygen levels (hypoxemia). It is possible that massage increases the uptake and utilization of oxygen in the tissues and creates a transitory hypoxemia, which may act as a condition necessary to stimulate the production of VEGF and up-regulate angiogenesis. From the research perspective, this hypothesis could be tested by measuring HIF-1 and VEGF before and after massage treatment and determining any significant changes.

It is proposed that the action of massage creates shear stress on blood vessels by compression and on lymphatic vessels by extra-vascular stretching. This effect may be beneficial to the health of the vessels, but may promote angiogenesis and lymphangiogenesis, assisting tumor vascularization and metastasis.

Shear stress is created in the blood vessels when blood flow reaches a certain level of intensity such as in exercise (for review see Kojda & Hambrecht, 2005; Prior, Yang, & Terjung, 2004). Endothelial cells are capable of detecting flow dynamics and respond by producing nitric oxide (NO), previously known as endothelial derived relaxing factor (Azuma et al., 2000; Rubanyi, Freay, Kauser, Johns, & Harder, 1990)."

9rugrats5 Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:24 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:Here's a posting by Columbo, that probably answers this question

Yes it does, thank you both!

CausticSymmetry wrote:It is proposed that the action of massage creates shear stress on blood vessels by compression and on lymphatic vessels by extra-vascular stretching. This effect may be beneficial to the health of the vessels, but may promote angiogenesis and lymphangiogenesis, assisting tumor vascularization and metastasis.

One may find the route of blood vessels in Gray's sketches, etc. CS, which of these massage approaches do you think would work better- massaging along the path, or across the path of a blood vessel?

Maybe I'm just thrown off by that phrase 'shear stress' in this context Very Happy

thanks!

ferox Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:31 pm

gbp2000 wrote:I wanted to post this as I think it might be useful to people. Whilst I can't discuss the method behind it due to NDA - I have been having some success with a mechanical method to increase blood flow.

I want to make this post cause agnostic. In other words - if you think DHT causes hairloss or green men from mars do - thats fine. This is about why it is so hard to grow hair back on your temples etc.

The method is not mine - but the research and theory is mine or goes back to a book in the seventies.

People say that blood flow is the same in balding scalps. That's a huge pile of crap.

It has to be. Here is why - every terminal hair on your head is fed by a capillary loop. When it enters Anagen, that loop degenerates and goes. That's not supposition - it's fact.

As you bald, more of your hair is fed by diffusion of blood, than direct delivery. These hairs are called vellus. Again, this is a fact.

It doesn't matter how you got here - maybe a cow licked your head - what has happened is - your network of capilliaries is no longer needed to direct deliver blood.

What happens? As you bald - the network atrophies. When you remove the cause of your balding eg dht / lazy mitochondira / mercury / poor circulatory system / low oxygen - you hit an issue.

You can generally only grow hair near existing hair simply because the network needs to be rebuilt. At the front of your scalp - there are two main delivery systems - blood flowing up capillaries from above each eyebrow. You can see them quite clearly in a lot of babies.

So - I said, that bloodflow is different in balding scalps - both in quantity, reach and quality.

Example:

When you exercise or injure an area, your body will need to provide raw materials to repair and allow extra capacity.
This means that via aniogenesis - new capiliaries develop.
The more extensive the network - the more demand the body percieves and teh more blood is delivered.

Without hair - the demand goes - a general blood plasma bath is all that remains and the result is vellus. It doesn't matter what killed the hair - it can't grow back till it's got a local highway to tap into.

Lose the network coming up your forehead and it's going to be very hard to generate capillary loops until the network is reestablished.

To summarise:

-Vellus hair - has no capillary loop to the papillia
-Terminal hair - thickness depends on the number of cells (size) of the top of the papillia
-Blood flow to some extent determines the number of those cells.

If you feel like doing it you can verify the above claims in my other posts where I reference various papers.

Supposition: Disregarding the causes of baldness the end result is degradation of the network in two ways. Lack of reach - without blood 'highways' the streets and cut throughs don't exist - this equals recession. the quality of the blood delivered - 'thick' blood' and a degraded network due to health reasons (cardiovascular health) - results in sluggish delivery and an inefficient end to end delivery process. This is is diffuse thinning.

Conclusion:
Blood flow must be different in balding subjects
Deliver is related to demand in the body
Demand drives capillary development / aniogenesis
Capillary loops are required for terminal hair

Man! This post is amazing! Thanks a lot!

Hoppipolla Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:46 pm

Agreed, it's an amazing post. It's incredible how much information is now contained on IH. I think we should start making a "Best of IH" thread/section, similar to what they have on CureZone, to store the best posts related to solving hair loss Smile

ferox Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:17 am

is it possible to make this post "sticky" ?

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