If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Hoppipolla Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:03 am

I learned about this recently. Apparently carnivores (and quite possibly omnivores I'm not so sure) have very short digestive tracts so that the meat passes through them nice and fast, and doesn't go off or allow too much fat absorption and possibly protects them from toxins too I'm not sure.

However, in humans our digestive systems are much longer - not as long as that of a chimp or gorilla but still pretty long - and that is why people on most Western-style diets (and I assume all people on moderate-high meat diets) end up... with an odor when they use the loo! lol

Because the meat has actually gone rancid as it doesn't digest as quickly as fruits and veg and stuff and doesn't contain much fibre so it sticks around. I don't know if having a VERY high fibre diet would push the meat through sufficiently enough so one would not have this (potential) "problem".

I have noticed since I've gone 99% frugivorous that there seems to be (sorry for the TMI!) little to no odor when I use the loo or even when I get gas lol

It's really quite pleasant a change! haha

Opinions on all this?

Oh, here is an interesting little article about all this stuff: http://www.sunfood.net/fruitarian_evidences.html

Hoppi!

EDIT -- Oh, I'm also aware that we lack hindgut fermentation capabilities, which impairs our ability to digest large amount of raw plant matter as well as other apes. This may be due to us learning to cook our food?

Also my best guess as to why we're in this almost "limbo"-feeling state is perhaps as we may be gradually developing shorter digestive tracts as we possibly evolve from frugivores into more of a carnivorous state, but the evolution has not finished yet?

Who knows!! And who knows if this shakes the idea that eating lots of meat is good for us... o.O

jeruslan Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:39 am

Hoppipolla wrote:I learned about this recently. Apparently carnivores (and quite possibly omnivores I'm not so sure) have very short digestive tracts so that the meat passes through them nice and fast, and doesn't go off or allow too much fat absorption and possibly protects them from toxins too I'm not sure.

However, in humans our digestive systems are much longer - not as long as that of a chimp or gorilla but still pretty long - and that is why people on most Western-style diets (and I assume all people on moderate-high meat diets) end up... with an odor when they use the loo! lol

Because the meat has actually gone rancid as it doesn't digest as quickly as fruits and veg and stuff and doesn't contain much fibre so it sticks around. I don't know if having a VERY high fibre diet would push the meat through sufficiently enough so one would not have this (potential) "problem".

I have noticed since I've gone 99% frugivorous that there seems to be (sorry for the TMI!) little to no odor when I use the loo or even when I get gas lol

It's really quite pleasant a change! haha

Opinions on all this?

Oh, here is an interesting little article about all this stuff: http://www.sunfood.net/fruitarian_evidences.html

Hoppi!

EDIT -- Oh, I'm also aware that we lack hindgut fermentation capabilities, which impairs our ability to digest large amount of raw plant matter as well as other apes. This may be due to us learning to cook our food?

Also my best guess as to why we're in this almost "limbo"-feeling state is perhaps as we may be gradually developing shorter digestive tracts as we possibly evolve from frugivores into more of a carnivorous state, but the evolution has not finished yet?

Who knows!! And who knows if this shakes the idea that eating lots of meat is good for us... o.O

Hi Hoppipolla!!!

The fact about the lenght of digestive system is argument supporting vegetarian and vegan diet since I remember reading about this topic, and that is more then 10 years. But, it is easier ignore common sense and came up with some science theory then change one's habbits.
The fact, that human can only benefit from plant based diet is so obvious for those who experienced it, that they do not seek scientific proof.
I decided to ignore field of study and decided to be a happy vegan.

So, am I getting it right, that You eat raw vegan, mainly fruits?
And do you sprout? It is very beneficial... (Although I have not ordered my sprout bowl so far...)

We have probably forgot, that the key to health is in our mind. Everyone heard about "guy" who dig him self out of cancer just by meditation and positvie thinking. This can be applied on MPB as well...

I am now intersted (in very little spare time I have) in magnetism. I would love to catch a grasp of thse ideas and put them to work for my health. So sad, that this topic was abandoned after Second World War. I must confess, I am somehow attracted by theories, that look upon human as a energy field... Do not know, where this will lead...

Jeruslan

tonyj Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:12 am

EDIT -- Oh, I'm also aware that we lack hindgut fermentation capabilities, which impairs our ability to digest large amount of raw plant matter as well as other apes...

The appendix? If the appendix, then you're right, the appendix is a vestigial structure. The appendix may have had an original function in some of our distant ancestors to process cellulose, but now has more secondary functions that researchers are still discovering. One thing is that the appendix may be necessary to maintain gut flora.

Hoppipolla Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:21 am

tonyj wrote:
EDIT -- Oh, I'm also aware that we lack hindgut fermentation capabilities, which impairs our ability to digest large amount of raw plant matter as well as other apes...

The appendix? If the appendix, then you're right, the appendix is a vestigial structure. The appendix may have had an original function in some of our distant ancestors to process cellulose, but now has more secondary functions that researchers are still discovering. One thing is that the appendix may be necessary to maintain gut flora.

I wasn't thinking of the appendix but... maybe! I just heard chimps and stuff are way better at digesting cellulose snd stuff than us, so yeah it would make sense if the appendix was at least a big part of hindgut fermentation O.O

I'm not sure really..

CausticSymmetry Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:21 am

Some also wonder if meat should be consumed only raw. That makes quite a difference also as far as energy and digestion.

There's a growing community of body builders who are going raw (meat) for this.

rofl Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:11 am

i dont think the problem is meat. rather i think its just too much meat.

some cooked meat tastes so good, alot of us have it everyday 3 times a day.

i think our diets just need to be more balanced. and when people try and reduce meat consumption, they find the only way is to go off it completely because its too addictive.

and the ones who try and eat meat, end up eating it too much.

so u have these 2 sorts of ppl, heavy meat eaters lacking nutrients from plants, and heavy plant eaters lacking nutrients from meats.

I believe if it wasnt for butchers and supermarkets, we would have to kill our own animals, and then only have it once a week, which i think would be ideal.

abc123 Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:35 am

Hunter-Gatherers and Iron

In my Ancestral Health Presentation, I argued that hunter-gatherers and modern people differ in some very important contextual aspects. The following slide from my presentation summarizes my observations:

To summarize the table, in comparison to modern people, hunter-gatherers live in an environment with a low food availability and a high energy expense required to get that food. This combination results in lifelong caloric restriction and low body fat levels in the hunter-gatherer.

Hunter-gatherers also consume many unrefined plant foods and herbs that contain polyphenols, flavonoids, tannins, and fiber, all of which so-called 'antinutrients' reduce iron uptake and bind iron to reduce its availability for reaction with peroxide and superoxide. Finally, they have many other factors causing blood and iron loss, including parasites, insects, and injuries.

This environment is similar to that of our primate ancestors. Hence, I would surmise that human metabolism is adapted to an environment with a high intake of 'antinutrients,' a low dietary iron availability and a condition of borderline iron deficiency.

In such an environment, meat, particularly red meat, with its highly available iron, may serve as a medicine.

In contrast, people in modern affluent nations inhabit an environment with a low intake of 'antinutrients' (due to emphasis on refined plant foods), a high food iron availability and comparatively few drains on body iron stores.

Even many menstruating women have less iron loss in modern nations due to use of birth control methods.

Thus, modern people have a tendency to accumulate excess iron.

a<r Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:39 pm

I was completely unaware of a difference between paleo and hunter gatherer, what's the differing factor?

abc123 Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:05 pm

aI was completely unaware of a difference between paleo and hunter gatherer, what's the differing factor?

its refering to paleo dieters vs REAL hunter gatherers. The purpose is not to bash meat, because it is not a bad food, but to highlight that the baseline health and diet implementation are not the same for the two groups. Context is everything.

a<r Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:29 pm

Ahh, and yeah, I can completely agree with that.

thissucks Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:54 pm

This is a false myth.

Please read:

http://www.gnolls.org/1444/does-meat-rot-in-your-colon-no-what-does-beans-grains-and-vegetables/

'Nuff said.

a<r Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:00 pm

thissucks wrote:This is a false myth.

Please read:

http://www.gnolls.org/1444/does-meat-rot-in-your-colon-no-what-does-beans-grains-and-vegetables/

'Nuff said.

Haha, I didn't even read the first post of this thread, thissucks thanks for posting that link, sunfoods.net might be a little ... biased at times.

imprisoned-radical Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:05 pm

Broccoli causes some of the worst smelling gas ever.

thissucks Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:07 pm

a
thissucks wrote:This is a false myth.

Please read:

http://www.gnolls.org/1444/does-meat-rot-in-your-colon-no-what-does-beans-grains-and-vegetables/

'Nuff said.

Haha, I didn't even read the first post of this thread, thissucks thanks for posting that link, sunfoods.net might be a little ... biased at times.

Haha anytime, I set out myself to bust this myth earlier this summer. And one of the funniest things is the second line: "Like most vegetarian propaganda, it’s not just false, it’s an inversion of truth." Classic!

And while this site also undoubtedly has its own biases, it actually uses science (and even quotes a few studies!) in its explanation, something that is sorely lacking from the vegetarian propaganda sites that are just preying on the weak.

Hoppipolla Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:39 pm

thissucks wrote:This is a false myth.

Please read:

http://www.gnolls.org/1444/does-meat-rot-in-your-colon-no-what-does-beans-grains-and-vegetables/

'Nuff said.

But... then why does it end up smelling so bad after eating meat lol

I am now smell free xD when I use the loo or anything.. apparently even when you sweat you smell much better but it's a bit too early to tell that yet. It's so nice to use the lil boy's room and come out like a fresh summery breeze rofl xD

I dunno... maybe it's just because meat is lower in fibre so you end up on the loo less so things have more TIME to accumulate bacteria.

And it makes sense when you consider how long our digestive tracts are compared to carnivores.

Oh, check this:

"Reply by Chris Randall 16 hours ago
Brenton, everyone I know who eats meat/animal products has incredibly foul smelling feces and after some time on a 811RV diet my feces no longer smells.

When I first started this diet, as well as when I went vegan, I had gas and elimination that truly smelled absolutely terrible. Was this not the pieces of undigestible animal pieces/excretions that got caught in my colon finally being eliminated?

My father is a funeral director and has been present at numerous autopsies. He's noticed time and time again that sick people have very backed up colons with rotting nasty pieces in them. I don't think you'll find a lot of putrefying pieces of bananas, broccoli, and rice! No bias there either. The man eats more meat and dairy products than anyone I know. He also has gas/eliminations that make me have to leave the house.

At the Woodstock Fruit Festival Dr. Douglass Graham mentioned that when he was in medical school, they tried breaking down various meats/animal products with digestive acids that are in line with what the human body is capable of producing. They were unable to break them down fully and only fully broke them down with acids that were far too strong to be present in the human body.

It's also the matter of whether or not the human body is able to completely break them down. They may be able to partially, but even then this is when we see people have elevated hydrochloric acid levels being unhealthfully high.

Sure cooked starches and other things can cause some putrefaction and lead to stinky feces, but even the cooked food eating vegans I've talked to don't stink as bad as the average cadaver consumer.

I'm not a fan of "colon cleanses", I'm just a fan of not presenting our digestive system with harmful substances and in turn allowing the body to heal on it's own.

Of course, then there's the fact that humans don't secrete the enzyme Uricase to neutralize the uric acid in flesh. There's also the fact that our intestinal tract is about 12 times the length of our torsos, whereas the average carnivore's is about 3 times the length of it's torso. This is so the flesh they consume leaves their body quicker and putrefies as little as possible.

I'm definitely interested in hearing if you have any other resources though! Smile

But there's my case. You're turn bro! Very Happy

Chris Randall"

That article you linked to also misunderstands something o.O No-one is claiming anything rots in the stomach.. they claim it rots in the gut - in the large intestine primarily because it's so long.

Not saying it's necessarily true but, the article is right that it's absurd that anything would rot inside the actual human STOMACH... Shocked

rofl Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:26 am

where do u get this stuff hoppi?

u need to do a medical course or something so we dont have to listen to ur weird hypotheses and conclusions.

go eat some asparagus and then smell ur pee.

AS54 Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:23 am

In the small intestine, every piece of food that passes through it is acted upon by bacteria somehow. Couldn't we argue that almost everything we consume becomes rancid to some extent?

I guess I would prefer a clearer definition of the term rancid...

I am forgetting his name now, but he is the guy who runs the Hippocrates Institute. I heard him claim that eating whole fruits and vegetables is bad for detox because the fiber content causes these items to become rancid in the stomach. This is why he promotes juicing only in his program, no blending.

Although I'm no expert on the matter, I find it difficult to believe that meat and whole fruits and veggies are in any way negative for digestion.

Also, the previous claim that having high HCL levels in the stomach is a bad thing is complete nonsense. If anything, the big problem with digestion in our society is a lack of proper stomach acidity. This causes food to simply sit in the stomach. You can feel this after eating if you suffer from this condition. High stress levels and H. Pylori both have the effect of reducing stomach acidity. What we must remember is that the entire digestive process is pH driven. The stomach must have the proper release of acid in order to instigate the necessary peristalsis to create movement in the intestines. So if anything, I believe eating meat (which increases the stomach's product of HCL) would be beneficial for elimination when eaten on occasion.

thissucks Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:58 am

Hoppi, you didn't use much science in your post so there's not much to reply to. If you want to judge digestive health by the smell of your poop thats your prerogative. However, you had very little to say about the scientific and well-thought out post that I provided. He talks about the entire digestive process - NOT just the stomach, but from the stomach to the colon.

You do mention Uricase, which was interesting so I looked it up. Turns out humans do have a gene for Uricase, but we evolved in a way that the gene became inactive. There are many theories to why this is... none of them have to do with eating meat (that I saw anyway). For example, here's one theory:

"We hypothesize that the mutation provided a survival advantage because of the ability of hyperuricemia to maintain blood pressure under low-salt dietary conditions, such as prevailed during that period."

"Uric Acid, Hominoid Evolution, and the Pathogenesis of Salt-Sensitivity" http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/40/3/355.full

You want to talk about meat in the digestive system? Take a look at this post. Here is a guy who, having most of his intestines removed, got to see firsthand what was coming out of his digestive system:

http://roarofwolverine.com/archives/412

I will quote from there:

"Because I had such an extremely short bowel, my output was very high because no absorption had taken place. I was fed and hydrated by infusion and could literally live without eating or drinking at all. Because of my excessive output, we had to make a rig that had a hose extending from the ostomy bag that drained into a one gallon jug. Often the hose would get clogged and my wife or sister would have to use a coat hanger wire to unplug it. Now if vegan pseudoscience is right, we would suspect that the hose was being plugged by pieces of meat.

Never once did we see any solid chunks of meat. I became so curious about this that I once swallowed the largest chunk of meat I could possibly get down without choking. Because of the shortness of my bowel, it only took about twenty minutes for my stomach to empty into the ostomy. Better than two hours later, there were no signs of any meat chunks. What was always clogging the ostomy tube were pieces of vegetables that were not fully chewed.

Entire pieces of olive, lettuce, broccoli florets, grains and seeds were found. Yet, large pieces of fat were never witnessed. As a matter of fact, all the fat from the meat was already emulsified by the bile into solution. Over time, fat would coagulate on the side walls of the ostomy bag, but never were there any solid pieces observed. Certainly we are getting a lot more nutrition from our meat than from our vegetables – unless you can chew your cud several times like a ruminant."

This is just my own research, but it sounds like some pretty convincing stuff. Very interesting.

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If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

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Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?

Re: If humans are now evolved sufficiently to comfortably eat meat, how come it becomes rancid before leaving our digestive system?