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Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
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blueman99
987
Mastery
gg4545
dreft
AS54
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Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
Hi guys. I'm brand new to the site, but I have been reading over a good deal of the material. So there are some points to a possible strategy I'd like to throw out and see if some of the experienced posters would critique them.
First of all, we know DHT isn't all bad, just in the scalp. We also know that SHBG has the greatest affinity for DHT (more so than T or E). So our goal should be to increase SHBG so as to maximize DHT modulation correct? I believe we do this by fixing the thyroid (thyroxine is a SHBG agonist) and by increasing our insulin sensitivity (insulin is a SHBG antagonist).
We also know that green tea extracts promote SHBG and help to lower estradiol simultaneously so perhaps this can help as well. I believe nettle is actually counter-productive because it acts through it's sterols binding to SHBG, leaving more DHT in free form. So using saw palmetto (blocks localized DHT receptor binding) along with green tea as a topical would have positive effect?
I guess what I'm asking is, would a strategy that maximizes SHBG (green tea extract, fix thyroid, lower insulin resistance, avoid casein) and uses a localized DHT inhibitor (saw palmetto) be a solid strategy?
First of all, we know DHT isn't all bad, just in the scalp. We also know that SHBG has the greatest affinity for DHT (more so than T or E). So our goal should be to increase SHBG so as to maximize DHT modulation correct? I believe we do this by fixing the thyroid (thyroxine is a SHBG agonist) and by increasing our insulin sensitivity (insulin is a SHBG antagonist).
We also know that green tea extracts promote SHBG and help to lower estradiol simultaneously so perhaps this can help as well. I believe nettle is actually counter-productive because it acts through it's sterols binding to SHBG, leaving more DHT in free form. So using saw palmetto (blocks localized DHT receptor binding) along with green tea as a topical would have positive effect?
I guess what I'm asking is, would a strategy that maximizes SHBG (green tea extract, fix thyroid, lower insulin resistance, avoid casein) and uses a localized DHT inhibitor (saw palmetto) be a solid strategy?
AS54- Posts : 2367
Join date : 2011-08-12
Age : 35
Location : MI
Forgot the estrogen part...
Also, I've read a few studies that say DHT's negative effects are typically the result of their being concurrent high levels of estrogen present. So we obviously need to handle estrogen as well, perhaps with a DIM or I3C?
So consider this as part of my first strategy...and let me know if you think this strategy as a whole is on the right track. Thanks guys.
So consider this as part of my first strategy...and let me know if you think this strategy as a whole is on the right track. Thanks guys.
AS54- Posts : 2367
Join date : 2011-08-12
Age : 35
Location : MI
Re: Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
I'm also interested in this, since taking fin worked for me (for my hair actually, for me, no, since I had sides).
Yes, blocking DHT does work for some people, but as you said, what is the real way to do it?
As far as I found out, in order to handle it properly, one needs to have a healthy thyroid (good T4-> T3 conversion). This will increase progesterone (natural 5AR, competes with DHT for the receptors) and decrease estrogen (increases stress, dht in some cases, endotoxin,...). Or lowering estrogen with DIM if it is high, this will automatically increase prog according to others (but that would not address the cause of high estrog)
You can increase T3 with iodine according to CS, with a progest cream on the testicles before bed according to others (to have it in your system for a long time, since prog conversion is made with thyroid hormones and during the night the thyroid produced less hormones, according to http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/content.php?118-cortisol-boost-101, good read, read all, but the part about prog at night is found by searching for "Progesterone supplemented at night " on that page), with thyroid supps (you need good cholesterol levels, as I've read) and/or diet (according to danny-roddy).
You also have the dht driven up by bad diet, insulin problems. So one need to eat properly.
CS posted a study demonstrating that in men, supplementing soy isoflavones for 3 months significantly lowered DHT, increased SHBG...And it could also transform one in an equol producer. I've tried it, it works since it gave me the same sides as fin.
I guess you need a balance of all hormones, but, no matter the way you are doing it, what would the "ideal" values be?
I guess:
Testosterone/free t in the high range, but not above
Estradiol in the low range, but not below
SHBG in the high, but not above
progest in the high, but not above
prolacitn in the low, bot not above
vit D in the high, but not above
dht in the low rang, but not below
something else or corrections?
One other way, the best in theory at least, ( in practice it only worked for two people on this forum as far as I could see and you need to pay 2000$ for the device) is to use an electronic device called rife in order to kill certain pathogens, according to rdkml. He says the hormones will normalize once you kill the pathogens, so the pathogens in us are the cause and hormonal problems the result, if I got it right.
Yes, blocking DHT does work for some people, but as you said, what is the real way to do it?
As far as I found out, in order to handle it properly, one needs to have a healthy thyroid (good T4-> T3 conversion). This will increase progesterone (natural 5AR, competes with DHT for the receptors) and decrease estrogen (increases stress, dht in some cases, endotoxin,...). Or lowering estrogen with DIM if it is high, this will automatically increase prog according to others (but that would not address the cause of high estrog)
You can increase T3 with iodine according to CS, with a progest cream on the testicles before bed according to others (to have it in your system for a long time, since prog conversion is made with thyroid hormones and during the night the thyroid produced less hormones, according to http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/content.php?118-cortisol-boost-101, good read, read all, but the part about prog at night is found by searching for "Progesterone supplemented at night " on that page), with thyroid supps (you need good cholesterol levels, as I've read) and/or diet (according to danny-roddy).
You also have the dht driven up by bad diet, insulin problems. So one need to eat properly.
CS posted a study demonstrating that in men, supplementing soy isoflavones for 3 months significantly lowered DHT, increased SHBG...And it could also transform one in an equol producer. I've tried it, it works since it gave me the same sides as fin.
I guess you need a balance of all hormones, but, no matter the way you are doing it, what would the "ideal" values be?
I guess:
Testosterone/free t in the high range, but not above
Estradiol in the low range, but not below
SHBG in the high, but not above
progest in the high, but not above
prolacitn in the low, bot not above
vit D in the high, but not above
dht in the low rang, but not below
something else or corrections?
One other way, the best in theory at least, ( in practice it only worked for two people on this forum as far as I could see and you need to pay 2000$ for the device) is to use an electronic device called rife in order to kill certain pathogens, according to rdkml. He says the hormones will normalize once you kill the pathogens, so the pathogens in us are the cause and hormonal problems the result, if I got it right.
dreft- Posts : 213
Join date : 2011-04-23
Re: Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
worked for more than 2 people on this forum
gg4545- Posts : 170
Join date : 2011-12-31
Re: Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
RDKML knows what he is talking about. A brilliant mind.
It's obvious really when you think about it - and the other half of it is GRADUAL chelation of YOUR toxicity
DO those two and eat perfect, take the supps, stay out of the city and fuck a lot and you will be set.
OH, and for cheating do the handstands and brushing and hang upside down stuff, it may wel work too, especially if you are young - although for purists its kind of cheating. Tee hee,..
It's obvious really when you think about it - and the other half of it is GRADUAL chelation of YOUR toxicity
DO those two and eat perfect, take the supps, stay out of the city and fuck a lot and you will be set.
OH, and for cheating do the handstands and brushing and hang upside down stuff, it may wel work too, especially if you are young - although for purists its kind of cheating. Tee hee,..
Mastery- Posts : 627
Join date : 2010-09-27
Re: Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
So Im on board with
- Correcting all vitamin/mineral deficiencies ( especially iodine and vitamin D)
- Perfecting an anti inflammatory, nutritional diet ( minimize all inflammation in the body)
- IH top 6 type regimen maybe with some variation
- Healthy levels of exercise
- Increase SHBG and testosterone ( maintain youthful levels of test)
- Increase body/scalp circulation
- and for some people mildly decrease DHT through natural means.
The most ive seen on increasing SHBG is through green tea and iodine?
Does an increase in SHBG mean an increase in testosterone also generally!?
Im pretty sure my thinning was a product of bad scalp inflammation triggered by up-regulated hormonal excess in my scalp due to very low shbg, which expressed itself because I probably have a slightly less robust capillary network in the scalp
(which gets damaged by androgens?) to begin with...
I say that because I think most people who bald tend to naturally have higher hair lines and thinner hair than non balders are born with, or perhaps just larger upper head dimensions from my observation, so I can see how there'd be more susceptibility in androgenic damage or scalp tightening/stress and/or inflammation induced blood flow restriction ...
- Correcting all vitamin/mineral deficiencies ( especially iodine and vitamin D)
- Perfecting an anti inflammatory, nutritional diet ( minimize all inflammation in the body)
- IH top 6 type regimen maybe with some variation
- Healthy levels of exercise
- Increase SHBG and testosterone ( maintain youthful levels of test)
- Increase body/scalp circulation
- and for some people mildly decrease DHT through natural means.
The most ive seen on increasing SHBG is through green tea and iodine?
Does an increase in SHBG mean an increase in testosterone also generally!?
Im pretty sure my thinning was a product of bad scalp inflammation triggered by up-regulated hormonal excess in my scalp due to very low shbg, which expressed itself because I probably have a slightly less robust capillary network in the scalp
(which gets damaged by androgens?) to begin with...
I say that because I think most people who bald tend to naturally have higher hair lines and thinner hair than non balders are born with, or perhaps just larger upper head dimensions from my observation, so I can see how there'd be more susceptibility in androgenic damage or scalp tightening/stress and/or inflammation induced blood flow restriction ...
987- Posts : 432
Join date : 2012-04-19
Location : USA
Re: Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
J987 wrote:So Im on board with
- Correcting all vitamin/mineral deficiencies ( especially iodine and vitamin D)
- Perfecting an anti inflammatory, nutritional diet ( minimize all inflammation in the body)
- IH top 6 type regimen maybe with some variation
- Healthy levels of exercise
- Increase SHBG and testosterone ( maintain youthful levels of test)
- Increase body/scalp circulation
- and for some people mildly decrease DHT through natural means.
The most ive seen on increasing SHBG is through green tea and iodine?
Does an increase in SHBG mean an increase in testosterone also generally!?
Im pretty sure my thinning was a product of bad scalp inflammation triggered by up-regulated hormonal excess in my scalp due to very low shbg, which expressed itself because I probably have a slightly less robust capillary network in the scalp
(which gets damaged by androgens?) to begin with...
I say that because I think most people who bald tend to naturally have higher hair lines and thinner hair than non balders are born with, or perhaps just larger upper head dimensions from my observation, so I can see how there'd be more susceptibility in androgenic damage or scalp tightening/stress and/or inflammation induced blood flow restriction ...
Not sure If I Agree with the part about people with higher hairlines tend to go bald more often. Black men have some of the lowest straightest hairlines and they go bald very often.
blueman99- Posts : 117
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : Portland
Re: Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
I've been payi attention lately to peoples heads and I see what he is saying, people with a small forehead in general hardly ever recede. It's peoe like me with a big fivehead who typically fall victim to hairloss. Maybe the excessive vertical travel of the blood boggs down the bloodflow going up?
SlowMoe- Posts : 1112
Join date : 2012-03-22
Re: Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
Not sure If I Agree with the part about people with higher hairlines tend to go bald more often. Black men have some of the lowest straightest hairlines and they go bald very often.
Im black btw, and not really, most black males only get receding hair line later in life, its actually a much smaller percentage who go bald,and the ones that do is because they ate like shit their whole lives. Id assume there is a point of being unhealthy to where your "good" hair genetics cant protect you..
I have a friend who has a huge forehead and probably called big head all his life, and i noticed he's starting to bald now which didnt surprise me. He has hardly any body hair, mid 20s, peach fuzz for a mustache and chin hair, dht cant be that significant in him...
I notice Caucasian males have a larger number of balding males and many of them had high hair lines to begin with.
Asians and Mexicans bald the least probably, small heads, low hair lines and probably lower dht levels than the other races...
I don't have a receded hair line, more so just mature looking, and a little diffuse thinned within the nw2 region, but my brother always had a lower hair line and thicker hair, he's a couple years younger but no sign of hair loss at all.
Think of Brad pits head versus the head on the bald dad from that 70's show and you cant tell me the later would need a much more robust capillary network to keep hair under even the same androgenic and/or inflammatory conditions.. I'm not saying im signed on to the skull expansion theory, but there is a significant difference in head shapes that could be a contributing factor to the level of unimpeded blood flow needed...
987- Posts : 432
Join date : 2012-04-19
Location : USA
Re: Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
Interesting conversation. I have a pretty large head and I am experiencing diffuse thinning. I've never once considered the size of my head as a factor. But I think us guys who are thinning tend to focus on hair loss much more so than we think, especially in what we notice in others. I don't care, black, white, asian, whatever, there are bald men to be found. And I think it has absolutely nothing to do with how low the hair line is to begin with. Mine started pretty low. Doesn't matter now. And how often do you see a balding man and are able to tell what his youthful hairline was like. Do you also have a 10th grade photograph? Because saying people who bald tend to have higher hairlines is like saying someone who is an amputee tends to have shorter legs. Once recession has begun, how are you using hairline as a predisposing factor to something that has already been set in motion?
AS54- Posts : 2367
Join date : 2011-08-12
Age : 35
Location : MI
Re: Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
Great topic anthony!
Here's something to add.
I think Ray Peats methods come into play here, as well as Iodine, and for me personally, chelation of the buildup in the gut (specifically I believe Modified Citrus Pectin to be valuable here)
Here's something to add.
Estrogens, Breast Cancer, and Intestinal Flora
Sherwood L. Gorbach
+ Author Affiliations
Division of Infectious Diseases, Department of Medicine, Tufts-New England Medical Center and Tufts University School of Medicine, Boston, Massachusetts
Please address requests for reprints to Dr. Sherwood L. Gorbach, Tufts-New England Medical Center, 171 Harrison Avenue, Boston, Massachusetts 02111
Abstract
Epidemiologic evidence has linked diet to breast cancer, with the highest cancer rates observed in women who eat a high fat-low fiber diet. There is also substantial information, both clinical and experimental, that implicates estrogens in the etiology of breast cancer. A recent study from our laboratory has shown that diet influences levels of estrogens, and the main mechanism is metabolism of estrogens in the intestine. The intestinal microflora plays a key role in .the enterohepatic circulation of estrogens by deconjugating bound estrogens that appear in the bile, thereby permitting the free hormones to be reabsorbed. By suppressing the microflora with antibiotic therapy, fecal estrogens increase and urinary estrogens decrease, changes indicating diminished intestinal reabsorption. A low fat-high fiber diet is associated with similar findings — high fecal estrogens and low urinary estrogens. It appears that the microflora plays a key role in the metabolism of female sex hormones.
I think Ray Peats methods come into play here, as well as Iodine, and for me personally, chelation of the buildup in the gut (specifically I believe Modified Citrus Pectin to be valuable here)
_________________
"Mass paranoia is a mode, not a melody" - Greg Graffin
"When you're going through hell, keep going!" - Winstone Churchill
a<r- Admin
- Posts : 819
Join date : 2011-05-12
Age : 33
Re: Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
Studies on the role of intestinal bacteria in metabolism of synthetic and natural steroid hormones.
Adlercreutz H, Pulkkinen MO, Hämäläinen EK, Korpela JT.
Abstract
Administration of antimicrobial agents to subjects taking oral contraceptives has been reported to lead to contraceptive failure and subsequent pregnancy. In women taking oral contraceptives antimicrobial agents could have an effect on both endogenous hormone levels and on the metabolism of the exogenously administered steroids. To investigate these possibilities, antimicrobial agents were administered for short periods to normal women taking various steroid drugs: Megestrol acetate (MA), medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA), norethisterone (NET), a combination of NET and ethinylestradiol (EE) or a combination of lynestrenol and EE. During ampicillin administration the 24-h morning plasma concentrations of MA, MPA and NET were increased compared to the control values. In the MA and MPA experiments the afternoon values were determined and also found to be increased. In the subjects taking oral contraceptives plasma EE concentration showed a tendency to decrease during ampicillin administration on the third, fourth or fifth morning of ampicillin administration, but was never lower than the pretreatment values. In other experiments plasma estrone (E1) and estradiol (E2), urinary total E1, E2 and estriol (E3) and fecal unconjugated and conjugated E1, E2 or E3 were determined by RIA before, during and after administration of oxytetracycline (2 X 500 mg/day for 5 days) to 5 young male subjects. Furthermore urinary and fecal estrogens were determined in 1 male subject after administration of erythromycin for 6 days and in 2 normally menstruating women after tetracycline and trimethoprim administration, respectively. During treatment with antimicrobial drugs an increase in the excretion of fecal conjugated and, with the exception of the oxytetracycline experiments, also of unconjugated estrogens paralleled a decrease in urinary estrogen excretion, especially for E2 and E3. In both urine and feces the E1/E2 and E1 + E2/E3 ratios increased due to diminished reductive metabolism of estrogens in the gut. No significant effects on plasma unconjugated estrogen concentrations were observed. The results suggest that the intestinal bacterial flora plays a significant role in estrogen metabolism. However, further studies are necessary, because our results do not explain why administration of antibiotics may cause contraceptive failure.
_________________
"Mass paranoia is a mode, not a melody" - Greg Graffin
"When you're going through hell, keep going!" - Winstone Churchill
a<r- Admin
- Posts : 819
Join date : 2011-05-12
Age : 33
Re: Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
the whole head size, hair line position at childhood conversation is purely anecdotal, incidental, and irrelevant to anything
LawOfThelema- Posts : 949
Join date : 2012-05-17
Re: Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
Regarding the studies posted above (estrogen - intestinal flora connection)
Glucuronidation
Glucuronidation is one of the key Phase II liver detoxification pathways for estrogens and other toxins. Glucuronic acid is conjugated with the estrogen to facilitate its elimination from the body. Unfortunately, some intestinal bacteria (mostly pathogenic) possess an enzyme, glucuronidase, that uncouples the bond between excreted estrogen and glucuronic acid in the large intestine, allowing the estrogen to reenter circulation (enterohepatic recirculation). Not surprising is the finding that excess glucuronidase activity is associated with an increased cancer risk, including breast cancer. The activity of glucuronidase is increased when the diet is high in fat and low in fiber, and can be reduced by establishing a proper bacterial flora by eating a diet high in plant foods and supplementing the diet with the "friendly bacteria" Lactobacillus acidophilus and Bifidobacterium infantis.
..from this site: http://www.funimky.com/research_estrogen.htm
Glucuronidation
Glucuronidation is one of the key Phase II liver detoxification pathways for estrogens and other toxins. Glucuronic acid is conjugated with the estrogen to facilitate its elimination from the body. Unfortunately, some intestinal bacteria (mostly pathogenic) possess an enzyme, glucuronidase, that uncouples the bond between excreted estrogen and glucuronic acid in the large intestine, allowing the estrogen to reenter circulation (enterohepatic recirculation). Not surprising is the finding that excess glucuronidase activity is associated with an increased cancer risk, including breast cancer. The activity of glucuronidase is increased when the diet is high in fat and low in fiber, and can be reduced by establishing a proper bacterial flora by eating a diet high in plant foods and supplementing the diet with the "friendly bacteria" Lactobacillus acidophilus and Bifidobacterium infantis.
..from this site: http://www.funimky.com/research_estrogen.htm
dreft- Posts : 213
Join date : 2011-04-23
Re: Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
Mihai, awesome study, I'd never seen that before.
_________________
"Mass paranoia is a mode, not a melody" - Greg Graffin
"When you're going through hell, keep going!" - Winstone Churchill
a<r- Admin
- Posts : 819
Join date : 2011-05-12
Age : 33
Re: Real Way to Handle DHT, Estrogen, and SHBG
Does this apply to synthetic estrogens found in our environment?
imprisoned-radical- Posts : 493
Join date : 2011-08-10
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