Declining Results After two years of supplement use and dropping the drugs

HairSeeker wrote:

baller234 wrote:Hair seeker, if you had success with propecia I'd recommend trying soy isoflavones. Genistein and daidzein also inhibit 5 alpha reductase and they mildly inhibit enzymes responsible for testosterone and androstenedione. They also downregulate androgen receptors, displace estradiol from SHBG, and increase beneficial estradiol metabolites. What's more if you have the right gut flora you can make equol. So if androgens are the main cause for your hair loss, soy isoflavones will slow it down at the very least.

Baller, 234, thanks for the advice. Do you recommend any brand in particular? What about dosage? I plan to continue taking Propecia. Will these supplements interfere in any way, or would they enhance the results?

baller234 wrote:Actually I think soy would only make finasteride more effective because it would displace estradiol from SHBG (Mistere has provided a study showing that estradiol bound to SHBG is capable of activating the androgen receptor in the prostate) and promote it's metabolism into the non-inflammatory "good" metabolites which are very hair friendly (much like DIM).

I believe that estradiol and the bad 16 hydroxy metabolites make DHT and other androgens more potent. I think this why people can be fat and have manboobs and yet still be going bald despite the high level of estrogen. If you think about it, without estradiol or with too much estradiol, you won't be able to get an erection so there is definitely a connection between estradiol and androgen sensitivity. I honestly think that a lack of beneficial estradiol metabolits is the cause of MPB. The reason some people respond well to finasteride and others don't could POSSIBLY depend upon how their liver metabolizes the extra estradiol.

baller234 wrote:

HairSeeker wrote:

baller234 wrote:Hair seeker, if you had success with propecia I'd recommend trying soy isoflavones. Genistein and daidzein also inhibit 5 alpha reductase and they mildly inhibit enzymes responsible for testosterone and androstenedione. They also downregulate androgen receptors, displace estradiol from SHBG, and increase beneficial estradiol metabolites. What's more if you have the right gut flora you can make equol. So if androgens are the main cause for your hair loss, soy isoflavones will slow it down at the very least.

Baller, 234, thanks for the advice. Do you recommend any brand in particular? What about dosage? I plan to continue taking Propecia. Will these supplements interfere in any way, or would they enhance the results?

By far the best soy isoflavone supplement I've ever used is this one http://www.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Soy-Isoflavones-60-Capsules/4869?at=0. In addition to isoflavones it also contains natto, a fermented soy food that is rich in probiotics which will help you produce equol.

I take one in morning and one at night with food as per instructions. As for taking it with propecia, it will probably only help however there may be a slim chance you could inhibt 5 alpha reductase too much and have reflex hyperandrogenicy (sp?).

fumanchu wrote:Taking those drugs just isn't worth the hair, IMO. The problems associated with them is quite alarming. It just isn't a good route to travel if you really care about your overall health.

The best you can do is wait for Histogen, Follica, etc... to come to market. It'll seem like an eternity granted you care so much about your scalp being covered with something, but these methods have proven to create regrowth and are coming closer to being available to us. Even if it doesn't end up being better than propecia, you can bet your bottom dollar it'll come pretty close to being just as good without side effects.

For the time being, I suggest you invest in a quality hair piece. I don't believe it when people say somebody will always tell you're wearing one. A good wig must do the job. Though, it must be such bullshit maintenance I can't even imagine.

baller234 wrote:Alcohol increases aromatase in the liver, however it increases the 16 hydroxy estrogens. Some ways/things to increase the hair beneficial 2 hydroxy estrogens include: phytoestrogens, I3C/DIM (this also a good supplement to use with Fin however less is more), Omega 3s, low fat diet.

Keep in mind all this is just from my research and observations. Your personal body chemistry could react very negatively to Finasteride and soy supplementation so consult with the your perscribing doctor about using soy isoflavones in conjunction with finasteride.

IMO the only real cure for androgen driven hair loss is estrogen.

The Natural wrote:baller,

The more that you learn about this hair loss fight, the more that you will understand that it should not be about trying to inhibit DHT per se, especially internally. Testosterone is good. Supplements (e.g. tocotrienols, vitamin D) which facilitate/increase the production of testosterone are beneficial, not harmful, to our hair. Estrogen is bad. And soy isoflavones won't do a thing for your hair loss, but make it worse.

IH spent a good deal of time, explaining the roles of estrogen and testosterone, and how they relate to hair loss. You do well to look this material up.

Why would it be bad for hair? From what i understood its good especialy in combination with EGCG

The most misunderstood thing about testosterone in MPB is assuming that all ages are the same.

As men age, their free testosterone goes down, their glucose metabolism worsens, their estrogen rises, so does their SHBG levels.

When insulin rises, it depresses hormone function and places the body into a state of hibernation, slowing down oxygen consumption, reducing combustion.

Younger men however, bald because their SHBG are too low, so having high testosterone can more readily convert to DHT. Note also that very young men, who are at adolescence or just above will have a transient insulin resistance, because of the body still growing up until age 25 or so, and the hormones are trying to "catch up" creating a hormone imbalance.




Increasing testosterone is a good thing, even if you're young. The only worry is if SHBG levels are too low with high testosterone. Ashwagandha (as Sensoril), will increase testosterone to cortisol ratios. This is definitely a good thing




Conversely, if testosterone is high, with a health endocrine balance (hormones), peroxynitrate can be attenuated and there will not be much in the way of inflammation. A key factor in this control is Ecklonia Cava, Vitamin C and Vitamin D.




For the most part it does (hormones). Women who have polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS), have a balding pattern more similar to a man's, as they have very high testosterone levels. In normal women, they
have higher levels of estrogen than a man, protecting against a dht mediated hair loss.




Meta-analyses of these studies show consistent sex-specific associations. In men, lower testosterone, higher estradiol and lower SHBG levels are associated with type 2 diabetes. In women, higher testosterone, higher estradiol and lower SHBG are associated with type 2 diabetes.




Benign Prostatic hyperplasia (enlarged prostate) is generally estrogen fueled. Believe it or not, large amounts of DHT can actually shrink the prostate. Of course DHT blockers also help to shrink the prostate, because they generally increase testosterone, lower estrogen and DHT.




In young people with MPB, SHBG tends to be on the low side. However, in older men, SHBG tends to get too high, allowing estrogen to become a dominant force.




On a basic level, glucose, GTT, triglycerides, HDL, Lp(a), Testosterone, DHEA-Sulfate, Estrogen, Prolactin and TSH can give a general clue to what your body is doing.



For example, one of the most effective ways to improve a heart or diabetic patient is to increase their testosterone levels.



Honestly, wouldn't worry about anything about elevating testosterone levels. The higher the T levels the better the glucose metabolism, the better everything works.

When blood sugar metabolism is not good, SHBG can be low (if you're young), or possibly too high if you're old (this is why everyone is so confused about this marker).

What you really wouldn't want is a low testosterone to cortisol ratio. That is indicative of insulin resistance. If one is under high stress, it can cause an elevation of cortisol, which will increase insulin levels and lower testosterone.

NewReg wrote:I appreciate everyone's thoughts, but I must say that we sound like a bunch of UFO hunters sometimes. Sometimes I wonder if we just can't handle the truth about our hair loss and use these studies and newly found regiments as mere hope. I say that because I've tried just about everything this forum has to offer (see earlier post) and every time I come back saying that it's not working, I get "YES, but have you tried ________ ?"

I mean, I get it, we're all experimenting with different things, but will anyone here admit to just a little bit of denial or wishful thinking? One person says supplementing with Vitamin D is the key, the next says it's one of the worst things you can do. One person says it's LLLT and the next says there hair is falling out because of it. Hypothyroidism, liver toxicity, candida, inflammation, calcification...they're all touted as the pathogens to hair loss, and yet, as I try the different remedies, I see no improvement. Now I'm undermineralyzed?

I did every blood test under the sun earlier this year with a holistic M.D. that practices orthomolecular medicine and the only things out of range were a heightened amount of testosterone (for my age), high iron, barely high mercury, and elevated barium. Everything else was within range. Much healthier than many I people know. Yet, I'm 35 and a borderline NW4.

Now, I'm not trying to discourage anyone, and I love the sharing of info. I also understand and appreciate the process here and the overall multifaceted approach to health, but consider this: While hugely unpopular and potentially dangerous, I took one 1mg pill for eight years that helped me to maintain my hair very well by targeting DHT. Yet, now I'm told that DHT isn't the real problem...it's all these other things (see above and many more). So I spend about $150 a month in vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, clays and shampoos (not to mention my $500 laser helmet) and my diffusion keeps increasing and my hair line keeps receding. If the earlier wasn't the problem, why did the prescribed remedy work? And if the latter is the problem, why don't the prescribed remedies work? Food for thought anyway.

HairSeeker wrote:

NewReg wrote:I appreciate everyone's thoughts, but I must say that we sound like a bunch of UFO hunters sometimes. Sometimes I wonder if we just can't handle the truth about our hair loss and use these studies and newly found regiments as mere hope. I say that because I've tried just about everything this forum has to offer (see earlier post) and every time I come back saying that it's not working, I get "YES, but have you tried ________ ?"

I mean, I get it, we're all experimenting with different things, but will anyone here admit to just a little bit of denial or wishful thinking? One person says supplementing with Vitamin D is the key, the next says it's one of the worst things you can do. One person says it's LLLT and the next says there hair is falling out because of it. Hypothyroidism, liver toxicity, candida, inflammation, calcification...they're all touted as the pathogens to hair loss, and yet, as I try the different remedies, I see no improvement. Now I'm undermineralyzed?

I did every blood test under the sun earlier this year with a holistic M.D. that practices orthomolecular medicine and the only things out of range were a heightened amount of testosterone (for my age), high iron, barely high mercury, and elevated barium. Everything else was within range. Much healthier than many I people know. Yet, I'm 35 and a borderline NW4.

Now, I'm not trying to discourage anyone, and I love the sharing of info. I also understand and appreciate the process here and the overall multifaceted approach to health, but consider this: While hugely unpopular and potentially dangerous, I took one 1mg pill for eight years that helped me to maintain my hair very well by targeting DHT. Yet, now I'm told that DHT isn't the real problem...it's all these other things (see above and many more). So I spend about $150 a month in vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, clays and shampoos (not to mention my $500 laser helmet) and my diffusion keeps increasing and my hair line keeps receding. If the earlier wasn't the problem, why did the prescribed remedy work? And if the latter is the problem, why don't the prescribed remedies work? Food for thought anyway.

As you have probably read, my experience is exactly the same as yours. The little poison pill works. Sure, it's as affective as it used to be, but the damn thing slows down the loss. I have been looking for an explanation for years, but just can't seem to find one. If DHT is not the problem then why does the pill work?

action<reaction wrote:

HairSeeker wrote:

NewReg wrote:I appreciate everyone's thoughts, but I must say that we sound like a bunch of UFO hunters sometimes. Sometimes I wonder if we just can't handle the truth about our hair loss and use these studies and newly found regiments as mere hope. I say that because I've tried just about everything this forum has to offer (see earlier post) and every time I come back saying that it's not working, I get "YES, but have you tried ________ ?"

I mean, I get it, we're all experimenting with different things, but will anyone here admit to just a little bit of denial or wishful thinking? One person says supplementing with Vitamin D is the key, the next says it's one of the worst things you can do. One person says it's LLLT and the next says there hair is falling out because of it. Hypothyroidism, liver toxicity, candida, inflammation, calcification...they're all touted as the pathogens to hair loss, and yet, as I try the different remedies, I see no improvement. Now I'm undermineralyzed?

I did every blood test under the sun earlier this year with a holistic M.D. that practices orthomolecular medicine and the only things out of range were a heightened amount of testosterone (for my age), high iron, barely high mercury, and elevated barium. Everything else was within range. Much healthier than many I people know. Yet, I'm 35 and a borderline NW4.

Now, I'm not trying to discourage anyone, and I love the sharing of info. I also understand and appreciate the process here and the overall multifaceted approach to health, but consider this: While hugely unpopular and potentially dangerous, I took one 1mg pill for eight years that helped me to maintain my hair very well by targeting DHT. Yet, now I'm told that DHT isn't the real problem...it's all these other things (see above and many more). So I spend about $150 a month in vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, clays and shampoos (not to mention my $500 laser helmet) and my diffusion keeps increasing and my hair line keeps receding. If the earlier wasn't the problem, why did the prescribed remedy work? And if the latter is the problem, why don't the prescribed remedies work? Food for thought anyway.

As you have probably read, my experience is exactly the same as yours. The little poison pill works. Sure, it's as affective as it used to be, but the damn thing slows down the loss. I have been looking for an explanation for years, but just can't seem to find one. If DHT is not the problem then why does the pill work?

I have a theory in my minerals thread that you could help me with, would you mind reading and commenting? It's in the last couple of pages.

jdp701 wrote:baller234,

95% of soy in US is genetically modified! Just that reason alone I stay away from it.

If I ever did consume soy would make sure it's fermented. 10 years ago use to consume non fermented soy when news was being saturated with benefits and wouldn't recommend it. They make crazy glue out of that. That's what it does to the villi in your stomach among other issues.

Regarding testosterone, yes, I'm sure almost everyone on this forum have gone over the studies and info and has been talked about to death. Over 10 years ago all that was talked about was DHT, testosterone, estrogen, etc.. It really is a 90's way of thinking. Not that it doesn't work but there is no way I'd ever put my body through that again... went through it for 8 - 12 years as there really was no other info on how to combat MPB. That's what this forum is about as there are better ways of fighting hair loss. Not to mention eventually the same old DHT, testosterone battle becomes ineffective.

With new information about hair loss the truth is almost everything works to fight MPB where some things are a lot better than others. Also, have to consider not everybody has the same weaknesses in their chain. That's why you have regimens all over the map. What works for one may not work as well in another. It's all about experimentation and lots and lots of education on the subject. Can't just pop a pill for the next 6 - 12 months without understanding why you should and therefore if you should.

The problem is many people have the false impression that without growing hair, their regimen is not working and then keep switching from regimen to regimen until one day they say that nothing works.


So again, yes, lowering testosterone does work IME to fight hair loss. However, raising testosterone with a testosterone cream had no ill effects so long as the rest of my health was in good shape. Makes you wonder if CS is correct with experiences such as mine and that in vitro studies are short-sighted without seeing the larger picture of what occurs in the body. I personally know CS is correct but people need to experiment and educate themselves.

Some people want easy answers to hair loss and that's why HLH/HLT exist.

FWIW, here are some of CS's more recent quotes after March 2010 regarding testosterone

The most misunderstood thing about testosterone in MPB is assuming that all ages are the same.

As men age, their free testosterone goes down, their glucose metabolism worsens, their estrogen rises, so does their SHBG levels.

When insulin rises, it depresses hormone function and places the body into a state of hibernation, slowing down oxygen consumption, reducing combustion.

Younger men however, bald because their SHBG are too low, so having high testosterone can more readily convert to DHT. Note also that very young men, who are at adolescence or just above will have a transient insulin resistance, because of the body still growing up until age 25 or so, and the hormones are trying to "catch up" creating a hormone imbalance.




Increasing testosterone is a good thing, even if you're young. The only worry is if SHBG levels are too low with high testosterone. Ashwagandha (as Sensoril), will increase testosterone to cortisol ratios. This is definitely a good thing




Conversely, if testosterone is high, with a health endocrine balance (hormones), peroxynitrate can be attenuated and there will not be much in the way of inflammation. A key factor in this control is Ecklonia Cava, Vitamin C and Vitamin D.




For the most part it does (hormones). Women who have polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS), have a balding pattern more similar to a man's, as they have very high testosterone levels. In normal women, they
have higher levels of estrogen than a man, protecting against a dht mediated hair loss.




Meta-analyses of these studies show consistent sex-specific associations. In men, lower testosterone, higher estradiol and lower SHBG levels are associated with type 2 diabetes. In women, higher testosterone, higher estradiol and lower SHBG are associated with type 2 diabetes.




Benign Prostatic hyperplasia (enlarged prostate) is generally estrogen fueled. Believe it or not, large amounts of DHT can actually shrink the prostate. Of course DHT blockers also help to shrink the prostate, because they generally increase testosterone, lower estrogen and DHT.




In young people with MPB, SHBG tends to be on the low side. However, in older men, SHBG tends to get too high, allowing estrogen to become a dominant force.




On a basic level, glucose, GTT, triglycerides, HDL, Lp(a), Testosterone, DHEA-Sulfate, Estrogen, Prolactin and TSH can give a general clue to what your body is doing.



For example, one of the most effective ways to improve a heart or diabetic patient is to increase their testosterone levels.



Honestly, wouldn't worry about anything about elevating testosterone levels. The higher the T levels the better the glucose metabolism, the better everything works.

When blood sugar metabolism is not good, SHBG can be low (if you're young), or possibly too high if you're old (this is why everyone is so confused about this marker).

What you really wouldn't want is a low testosterone to cortisol ratio. That is indicative of insulin resistance. If one is under high stress, it can cause an elevation of cortisol, which will increase insulin levels and lower testosterone.