Declining Results After two years of supplement use and dropping the drugs

I've had the same experience as HairSeeker. I had great results with Propecia for eight years and decided to get off after reading everyone's horror stories with the drug, as well as the drug's seemingly diminishing effects on my hair after so many years of use. I immediately got on the IH protocol (which at that time was a bit different than it is today). After about nine months of stopping, I noticed I'd gone from a NW2 to NW3. Two years after stopping I'm at a NW 3.5-4. I've tried everything. I've been on the Top 6 for the whole time (I also take mag. citrate, ubiquinol, NAC, probiotic, vit. e, and several others), non-SLS shampoos, non-fluoride toothpaste, tried LLLT (had a horrible shed), Scalpure (can't really tell if it does anything), eat relatively clean (gluten-free), and exercise (yoga, rec. cycling, rollerblading).

Now contrast my lifestyle with my boss who is 5 years older than me, can't exercise due to a slipped disk, takes no supplements, eats carbs like they're going out of style, gets about 4 hours of sleep because he's so obsessed with work, has a hot chocolate with breakfast and a couple of Red Bulls in the afternoon and he has a full head of thick hair. Huh? Makes me feel like a sucker, honestly.

I feel like a lot that's discussed here is beneficial for our overall health and that's why I stay. And I also think it has some positive effect on hair. I noticed a difference after starting vit., curcumin, and mag. However, my genes have shown to be far more powerful than any capsule, laser, or hair mask this far. Please, if there's anything else, let me know.

PS - Had six mercury fillings taken out about 6 years ago. Have never had a root canal. Don't know my basal temp.

NewReg, have you never tried iodine?

NewReg wrote:I've had the same experience as HairSeeker. I had great results with Propecia for eight years and decided to get off after reading everyone's horror stories with the drug, as well as the drug's seemingly diminishing effects on my hair after so many years of use. I immediately got on the IH protocol (which at that time was a bit different than it is today). After about nine months of stopping, I noticed I'd gone from a NW2 to NW3. Two years after stopping I'm at a NW 3.5-4. I've tried everything. I've been on the Top 6 for the whole time (I also take mag. citrate, ubiquinol, NAC, probiotic, vit. e, and several others), non-SLS shampoos, non-fluoride toothpaste, tried LLLT (had a horrible shed), Scalpure (can't really tell if it does anything), eat relatively clean (gluten-free), and exercise (yoga, rec. cycling, rollerblading).

Now contrast my lifestyle with my boss who is 5 years older than me, can't exercise due to a slipped disk, takes no supplements, eats carbs like they're going out of style, gets about 4 hours of sleep because he's so obsessed with work, has a hot chocolate with breakfast and a couple of Red Bulls in the afternoon and he has a full head of thick hair. Huh? Makes me feel like a sucker, honestly.

I feel like a lot that's discussed here is beneficial for our overall health and that's why I stay. And I also think it has some positive effect on hair. I noticed a difference after starting vit., curcumin, and mag. However, my genes have shown to be far more powerful than any capsule, laser, or hair mask this far. Please, if there's anything else, let me know.

PS - Had six mercury fillings taken out about 6 years ago. Have never had a root canal. Don't know my basal temp.

NewReg – Sorry to hear that you share my fate. I am thinning in a NW5 pattern. Still have full coverage with some temple and hairline recession, which only started after quitting Propecia and Xandrox. It seems that in my case the drugs work. Yes, there are mild side effects, such as lower libido, slight gyno and depression, but my hair was in pretty good shape. I am back on Propecia now in hope of holding onto the remaining hair.

What’s very alarming for me is that all the remaining hair strands in the NW5 area are thinner, which is a sign of miniaturization. I am sure that all of this hair will be lost if I don’t find something to slow down the process. As I said above, the only proven treatment in my case has been Propecia. it slowed down but it was still working.

I too have tried LLLT and experience a shed after three – four months of use. I have tried everything on this forum with little to no results with regard to hair loss.
If I were to pick one supplement that has helped my health the most. I would probably choose iodine. My morning temp reading was always a bit low (96.5 – 97), but two months of iodine has increased this to 97.4. It’s still low, but it’s a step in the right direction.

I believe that my hair loss is aggravated by GI Tract inflammation, adrenal fatigue and a sluggish thyroid. This is the main reason for starting the top six, many other supplements, cleaning up my diet and greatly decreasing the alcohol intake.

Your boss is very lucky. He is obviously not genetically programmed to lose his hair. My father lost quite a bit by age 60. It seems that I will follow in his footsteps. He also died at age 66 from a massive heart attack and suffered from digestion issues and diabetes, hence my reason once again for following this site and trying to clean up my act.

I think the only hope for us and others like us is hair follicle cloning and transplantation. If they can perfect this, create as many follicles as needed to completely cover the entire scalp and provide the service at an affordable rate ($20K), we will all have a full dense head of hair to take to the grave or, we can just start a new fashion trend and shave our heads, lol…

I hope you find something that works for you. If you do, you can transplant some hair to cover up the font. Good luck. I will certainly let you know if I find anything. Been thinking of trying Prague's protocol and attacking this thing from a calcium angle.

For the body to truly accomplish an efficient healing mechanism of itself it needs 90 different vitamins / Minerals, Magnesium Citrate isn't going to cut it.

I've recently discovered that even CS has been taking ionic mineral liquids for years now, what does that tell you?

action<reaction wrote:For the body to truly accomplish an efficient healing mechanism of itself it needs 90 different vitamins / Minerals, Magnesium Citrate isn't going to cut it.

I've recently discovered that even CS has been taking ionic mineral liquids for years now, what does that tell you?

I'll try anything that may help hold on to my hair. I started taking the minerals last night. How long have you been taking the minerals and have you noticed any results with regard to hair?

HairSeeker wrote:

action<reaction wrote:For the body to truly accomplish an efficient healing mechanism of itself it needs 90 different vitamins / Minerals, Magnesium Citrate isn't going to cut it.

I've recently discovered that even CS has been taking ionic mineral liquids for years now, what does that tell you?

I'll try anything that may help hold on to my hair. I started taking the minerals last night. How long have you been taking the minerals and have you noticed any results with regard to hair?

I'm trying a lot of different things, but it's definitely too early to tell yet. Reversing two decades of slow progressing deficiency damage is going to take time. Either way, minerals / vitamins are key to life, let alone hair.

action<reaction wrote:

HairSeeker wrote:

action<reaction wrote:For the body to truly accomplish an efficient healing mechanism of itself it needs 90 different vitamins / Minerals, Magnesium Citrate isn't going to cut it.

I've recently discovered that even CS has been taking ionic mineral liquids for years now, what does that tell you?

I'll try anything that may help hold on to my hair. I started taking the minerals last night. How long have you been taking the minerals and have you noticed any results with regard to hair?

I'm trying a lot of different things, but it's definitely too early to tell yet. Reversing two decades of slow progressing deficiency damage is going to take time. Either way, minerals / vitamins are key to life, let alone hair.

Two decades? I thought you were only 19?

From the moment most of us are born we start a downward spiral of malnourishment, for me? that's two decades exactly in 8 days.

If you want to learn more about that, I suggest some good reading / watching on the calcification thread.

action<reaction wrote:From the moment most of us are born we start a downward spiral of malnourishment, for me? that's two decades exactly in 8 days.

If you want to learn more about that, I suggest some good reading / watching on the calcification thread.

Well, you are way ahead of the game. I never thought about health issues at 19.

HairSeeker wrote:

action<reaction wrote:From the moment most of us are born we start a downward spiral of malnourishment, for me? that's two decades exactly in 8 days.

If you want to learn more about that, I suggest some good reading / watching on the calcification thread.

Well, you are way ahead of the game. I never thought about health issues at 19.

It wasn't entirely by choice, I was very sick. It was either continue using drugs (which I learned by experience didn't work), wither in bed, or come to places like this to learn how and why we would start falling apart. I chose the hardest one, because I wanted more.

Briefly: your hair typically grows for two to four years and then goes into a two to four month loss phase. It then falls out. Baldness occurs when the follicle “miniaturizes”. This results in the growth of finer hair, which spends shorter and shorter periods of time in the growth phase. Some follicles may completely stop growing new hair and go dormant.

Hair growth stimulators work by forcing follicles out of the dormant state, as well as by deminiaturizing balding follicles. That is, hair loss treatment agents make the hair grow out coarser and make it spend longer in the grow phase.

If a dormant follicle still has a loss-phase hair in it, bringing the follicle out of dormancy may cause this loss-phase hair to shed early. Best way to think of is is that as new hair starts to grow, it may cause any loss-phase hair to fall out earlier than it normally would have. Typically, this presents as a wave of loss starting about 3-6 weeks after starting treatment and lasting a month or so. The Rogaine package insert says it can show as early as two weeks, but this is unusual. We know the hair was already in the loss-phase because the shedding starts and generally completes in less than the 2-4 months that hair spend in the loss-phase.

I was probably the first to see this effect of hair-growth-stimulators over 20 years ago. Since then, it has proved characteristic of all agents which bring follicles out of dormany. This means all agents that work, no exceptions. In fact, the better and more quickly a person responds to treatment, the more likely they are to see it. It seems to show visibly about 10-15% of the time.

Not to worry—because it is a sign that treatment is working, an early wave of shedding tends to be associated with a good eventual result. Also, the hair was scheduled to fall out in the next few weeks anyway.

Regarding LLLT and any hairloss treatment.

NewReg wrote:Now contrast my lifestyle with my boss who is 5 years older than me, can't exercise due to a slipped disk, takes no supplements, eats carbs like they're going out of style, gets about 4 hours of sleep because he's so obsessed with work, has a hot chocolate with breakfast and a couple of Red Bulls in the afternoon and he has a full head of thick hair. Huh? Makes me feel like a sucker, honestly.

This thought has crossed my mind so many times now, and I can understand the resentment. My theory is that it's not so much about what we consume, but what we use. The less active (and probably stress free) individuals use up far less nutrients than those of us who are fit and active. And recent discussions on this forum are leaning towards towards insufficient (appropriate) mineral consumption as part of the cause of hairloss. The lack of these minerals will impact on all bodily functions including hormonal balance. I think macronutrient wise we are all sufficient, but getting the trace minerals is quite hard - only now am I consciously choosing foods according to mineral abundance e.g. calves liver for copper, brazil nuts for selenium etc.

I'd be interested to know what others have experienced regarding my above theory. I for one am very physically and mentally active. Quite often I put a massive (physical) burden on my body without appropriate rest, food or hydration. I am now making every effort to 'balance the books' nutritionally speaking.

You have to be careful about eating foods to get your minerals MAO, sure Brazil nuts are known to have lots of selenium but most of the brazil nuts we eat today come from the United States and probably grow from depleted soils just like everything else.

Same with Calf's Liver, now I'm not saying that it isn't mineral rich, but if that calf was raised in a feed stall eating horrid corn / grain feed, it's definitely not going to be as nutritionally dense as you would think or like it to be.

action<reaction wrote:You have to be careful about eating foods to get your minerals MAO, sure Brazil nuts are known to have lots of selenium but most of the brazil nuts we eat today come from the United States and probably grow from depleted soils just like everything else.

Same with Calf's Liver, now I'm not saying that it isn't mineral rich, but if that calf was raised in a feed stall eating horrid corn / grain feed, it's definitely not going to be as nutritionally dense as you would think or like it to be.

Totally agree with you there. I try to source organic where possible (doesn't eliminate grain feeding though). Another problem is how long food has been sitting around for - who knows what is left if our foods by the time it reaches our plates?

I am very close to ordering the minerals in ionic form as an insurance policy.

MAO wrote:

action<reaction wrote:You have to be careful about eating foods to get your minerals MAO, sure Brazil nuts are known to have lots of selenium but most of the brazil nuts we eat today come from the United States and probably grow from depleted soils just like everything else.

Same with Calf's Liver, now I'm not saying that it isn't mineral rich, but if that calf was raised in a feed stall eating horrid corn / grain feed, it's definitely not going to be as nutritionally dense as you would think or like it to be.

Totally agree with you there. I try to source organic where possible (doesn't eliminate grain feeding though). Another problem is how long food has been sitting around for - who knows what is left if our foods by the time it reaches our plates?

I am very close to ordering the minerals in ionic form as an insurance policy.

I strongly advise it. Not just for hair, but for longevity.

You're very wise for your age a<r! Also, nice catch regarding the paradox of hair loss... effective treatments cause hair shedding. The worse you're hair loss, the worse the shed will be. However, can give a clue if shed is good based on how well your skin/scalp is.

The only real negative is what was documented in the LDS 100 study showing a small percentage complained of increased itching and stopped treatments during the study. What they weren't realizing is the increase in heat (especially in summer) can increase sebum and thus DHT and malassezia yeast. However, is addressed by the antimicrobial action and reduction of buildup with clay. Either way, still goes back to how your scalp and your skin feels as a good indicator if any hair loss treatment is effective or not.

Within 3 to 6 weeks, some users may experience increased hair shedding. This is a good indication and means the LLLT is effective. The shedding occurs because hair rejuvenation activates the “anagen” hair follicle’s growth phase.http://www.thesalonatwestchester.com/LLLT/Index.htm

Then compound that with a competing business with OMG who wanted to trash OMG's laser helmet by creating many user names at HLF talking about endless shedding and posting false testimonials which only exacerbates ones fear.

FWIW, the best testimonial of an "advanced" hair loss case were 3 pictures taken at HLF 9 months or so apart. Picture shows he is a NW 5. months later has lost quite a lot of hair. 9 months later, hair is back at baseline. All the guy has to do is stick with LLLT to maintain hair IMO/IME. If he didn't use any hair loss product, he would have lost all that hair shortly anyway as it wasn't in the anagen (growth) phase.

jdp - I agree with all that you said, and not from the standpoint of having used LLLT (though I probably will get on it just for some nice "hair insurance" as I don't like to dick around) but from the standpoint of a person who really, really has spent a lot of time studying how and why any treatment could and should work for fighting hairloss.

If you have an oily, sebum filled scalp? My first advice would be the minerals, it's been shown that they have a direct affect on things like acne and sebum. Second, the diet. Eliminate any unnecessary oily foods / sugars / etc. Eat like it's 1210, not 2010. There's a million other internal ways of cutting the sebum factor down, just do some searching, it's all here mostly on this site if you look.

Second, if none of that works or you just don't care for it, OMG and IH have great topicals that will allow a nice window of clean scalp for your laser sessions.

Merely hitting this with one approach just isn't going to cut it, there's evidence to prove this. This was terrifying to me at first, there was soooo much, I had this huuuge list of stuff that I wanted to take until I realized how simple it is. Get the 90 essentials to start with, stick with them, fix the digestion, and then work with where you are. I came quickly to realize that all these curcumins, resveratrols, etc etc that we're using are great but they are compensating for things that our bodies should be doing for us. Simplistic is the name of the game to start with, once you manage to get those things down adding things like the topicals and the LLLT come in as you need them and of course figuring out what your body needs.

Another thing in which I'd like to add, don't expect amazing results (unless you're using LLLT correctly) in a short period of time. I'll clarify.

Think of your life as an anti-regimen.

We have all spent decades eating bad food and other things that our bodies dislike (and by bad food I'm even talking about veggies and fruits, throwing a bunch of sugars / fibers / starches or even vitamins at ourselves with under enzymatic / under mineralized processes in our bodies is a recipe for trouble), very few of us have ever eaten any significant amount of food that hasn't been domesticated and bastardized. The idea of taking some anti-inflammitories on top of all this likely damage is laughable to me, this is another reason why I'm a little peeved that CS has been taking a multi-ionic mineral for years and not even sailing it on to us.

FWIW, if you consume distilled and even reverse osmosis water you definitely should add this or similiar http://www.iherb.com/Trace-Minerals-Research-ConcenTrace-Trace-Mineral-Drops-8-fl-oz-237-ml/22265?at=0

Should save money as the minerals you're taking can be expensive

The reason being is distilled and yes even reverse osmosis water will pull minerals out of your body to compensate for lack of minerals in water as evidence by when drinking lots of reverse osmosis water and having to urinate shortly after.

Only need 2 or 3 drops in glass of RO water.

jdp isnt lithium really bad for the thyroid?

also, why did u ask if he had braces?

Such a small amount of lithium is fine.

Braces = nickel. Nickel lowers immune system. My trigger of how I developed MPB IMO.

Hair seeker, if you had success with propecia I'd recommend trying soy isoflavones. Genistein and daidzein also inhibit 5 alpha reductase and they mildly inhibit enzymes responsible for testosterone and androstenedione. They also downregulate androgen receptors, displace estradiol from SHBG, and increase beneficial estradiol metabolites. What's more if you have the right gut flora you can make equol. So if androgens are the main cause for your hair loss, soy isoflavones will slow it down at the very least.

baller234 wrote:Hair seeker, if you had success with propecia I'd recommend trying soy isoflavones. Genistein and daidzein also inhibit 5 alpha reductase and they mildly inhibit enzymes responsible for testosterone and androstenedione. They also downregulate androgen receptors, displace estradiol from SHBG, and increase beneficial estradiol metabolites. What's more if you have the right gut flora you can make equol. So if androgens are the main cause for your hair loss, soy isoflavones will slow it down at the very least.

And don't forget Beta-Sit.

jdp701 wrote:Such a small amount of lithium is fine.

Braces = nickel. Nickel lowers immune system. My trigger of how I developed MPB IMO.

I got braces when I was 14. Shortly thereafter, I began noticing a nasty metallic taste in my throat & burnt metallic smell in my nostrils whenever I'd exercise or strenuously workout. Within 3 years, I noticed the beginning of a receding hairline. I'm 25 now, and my hair is thankfully way better than when I was 17. But it's taken LOTS of time, detox, and experimentation.

Jdp, what have you taken to detox the nickel?

LA-Night wrote:

jdp701 wrote:Such a small amount of lithium is fine.

Braces = nickel. Nickel lowers immune system. My trigger of how I developed MPB IMO.

I got braces when I was 14. Shortly thereafter, I began noticing a nasty metallic taste in my throat & burnt metallic smell in my nostrils whenever I'd exercise or strenuously workout. Within 3 years, I noticed the beginning of a receding hairline. I'm 25 now, and my hair is thankfully way better than when I was 17. But it's taken LOTS of time, detox, and experimentation.

Jdp, what have you taken to detox the nickel?

MAN. Weird that this would come up... I was looking at a picture of a friend today on facebook, and his hair was wet, and his hair looked soooo thin... it was crazy.

I scrolled down to the comments and somebody had posted "Wow! Your teeth look really nice after getting your braces off last week".